Tournament ettiquette

[James McPherson]

For those of us who are new to AOS or gaming in general and have never been to a tournament before, what are the do's and don'ts of tournaments in terms of player ettiqutte? Apart from the obvious, anyone got any advice? This is with Warlords @ whw in mind, but not exclusive to that.

 

I'm looking to find a good balance between being a sporting opponent to play against and turning to up compete.

 

Things I'm wondering about

 

If your opponent asks you to tell him or show him your list, asking to see your list before the game, are you inclined to show him and how far into it do you go? Do you usually exhange lists before the game and point out which heroes carry which items etc, or do you keep it as secret as possible?

Do you explain all the subtle synergies, points values and formations in your list, saying, if you kill this guy, my whole army crumbles, so go for his guy, or kill this guy he's worth 500 points? How do you draw a line between showing them what you have and hiding your weaknesses / shrouding your tactics?

Do you ever ask / or answer when asked what the ranges are of your shooting units?

If you get 2.5 hours to play a 2k game , do you try and arrive at the table early to begin deployment? Or does that time include set up? Do you deploy before the buzzer starts to make the most out of your game time?

Is it best to arrive with your units already on a tray all ready to go down quickly?

Counting out dice, what are your favorite methods for speedily counting out large amounts of dice and keeping track of rolling?

When you play , do you explain every little rule that is in place in detail, thus giving away some of its subtleties or weaknesses, or can you just say, I hit this guy on a 5+ because *insert ability here*

If the opponent asks to read your armies' Warscrolls from your books, because he doesn't have a copy of them of his own, is that ok or bad form?

Do you ever have a 5 minute break before the start of turns? I find a get 'brain drain' if I concentrate too hard for long periods of time without a break. Would that annoy an opponent if say, I went and got a glass of water or a restroom break?

If your opponent doesn't know the rules or what he's doing, do you bother to coach him or just try to table him?

 

Edit***

Scenery, do you take it in turns to place one piece of scenery, or just take what is already on the table as verbatim?

It is possible that your opponent could arrive at the table first and place scenery in an advantageous way , ie place a realmgate somewhere that helps them defend their position, so is it best to always place scenery down together?

Also choosing a table edge, if your opponent arrives at the table before you, and you win the roll off, is it ok to make them swap table sides? Do you feel bad about doing it?

 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

If your opponent asks you to tell him or show him your list, asking to see your list before the game, are you inclined to show him and how far into it do you go?

You're not inclined to but many people will offer their list, it's basically a way of saying I haven't made an illegal list.

Do you usually exhange lists before the game and point out which heroes carry which items etc, or do you keep it as secret as possible?

I believe this is personal preference. Personally I don't mind ether way but will edge toward not showing.

Do you explain all the subtle synergies, points values and formations in your list, saying, if you kill this guy, my whole army crumbles, so go for his guy, or kill this guy he's worth 500 points? How do you draw a line between showing them what you have and hiding your weaknesses / shrouding your tactics?

No, this is normally boring for the opponent anyway as they'll likely already know/not care/forget anyway.

Do you ever ask / or answer when asked what the ranges are of your shooting units?

Yes because the information is freely available anyway there's no point in not telling.

If you get 2.5 hours to play a 2k game , do you try and arrive at the table early to begin deployment? Or does that time include set up?

Yes arrive early and you can start doing pre game stuff.

Do you deploy before the buzzer starts to make the most out of your game time?

Is it best to arrive with your units already on a tray all ready to go down quickly?

This may be down to the tournament but I don't honk there is any issue with starting a bit early.

Counting out dice, what are your favorite methods for speedily counting out large amounts of dice and keeping track of rolling?

Blocks of tens for me. But anyway that ensures a correct amount that the opponent can clearly see.

When you play , do you explain every little rule that is in place in detail, thus giving away some of its subtleties or weaknesses, or can you just say, I hit this guy on a 5+ because *insert ability here*

No, if the opponent is unsure or curious they can ask. Or look it up themselves.

If the opponent asks to read your armies' Warscrolls from your books, because he doesn't have a copy of them of his own, is that ok or bad form?

I wouldn't have an issue. Probably personal preference but no harm in asking. At WHW they will have store copies you could use if needed.

Do you ever have a 5 minute break before the start of turns? I find a get 'brain drain' if I concentrate too hard for long periods of time without a break. Would that annoy an opponent if say, I went and got a glass of water or a restroom break?

I doubt it would annoy. I usually take a break at a convenient point when you aren't needed like the hero phase or movement phase.

If your opponent doesn't know the rules or what he's doing, do you bother to coach him or just try to table him?

Personal preference, might lose or gain you sports points though.

[Stevewren]

I can understand why people get worried about this sort of thing, but I try and treat every game the same. Tournament Etiquette really isn't any different from the etiquette that you would show to any opponent at any pick up game or club game. I generally try not to scream abuse at my opponent for example, as this is pretty bad form; i like to make sure that my opponent knows what i'm doing etc etc. I'd also expect my opponent to ask politely if I'm doing something he isn't sure about, for example picking up successful dice rolls rather than misses. I think @The Jabber Tzeentch has answered your specific issues with sound advice. 

[pforson]

Everyone wants to win, but everyone also wants to have a good time. Being secretive or hiding information in any way to gain an advantage is just being a numpty. 

I have a pretty weak baldder and will inevitably need a loo break half way through a game. I don't see taking a break from the table as being a problem.

If my opponent does something stupid, because he hasn't understood how one of my units works, then I'll always point it out and give him the option of changing it.

The game should be about winning through list building / tactics, not because my opponent misunderstood a rule.

Pete

[Josh Meads]

Being late and slow is annoying (these frustratingly often go hand in hand)

Questioning everything is annoying

Being too eager if you're kicking face, or being sullen if you're getting whooped is annoying

Can only say I've come across the top 1 twice, and the 2 and 3rd in 1 game (the same game!)

[James McPherson]

Good replies keep them coming!

 

[Bjarni St.]

Kind of  a wall o' text and probably a lot of repetitive answer but:

AoS is open list so yeah, expect to exchange lists either in the form of an actual list or just verbally going over what your models are, who's the general and what magic items you're using.

You are not expected to explain what you think the key is to beating your army or specifically point out your gameplan regarding how you're going to utilitise synergies and combos. Your opponent is obviously free to ask, but all your obligated to tell him is what your models are and do on the face of it As in: "The Bloodsecrator can plant his banner and give units within 18" +1 Attack and Immune to Battleshock." Not: "I'm going to use this command ability, the Bloodstoker and two Bloodsecrators to launch this unit of Bloodletters into your hurty bits so you better stop me from doing that by screening your most important unit.")

Yes, I'll confirm with my opponent what the specific rules are for elements of his army if I think it's relevant and shooting ranges are a pretty good example of that. It's public knowledge and you can either pause the game while one of you looks it up or (as everyone does) just answer the question. Similarly you should expect to both field and answer, in summary, questions like "How does the Knight Venator (Birdman) special arrow work again?" A: "Once per game, he can shoot only once but does D3+3 damage, D6+3 agains Heroes and Monsters, if the attack goes through."

You're under no obligation to "coach" your opponent but there is a slight exception to that where if you think your opponent is doing something specifically because he's misunderstanding a part of the rules (particularly ones for your army and more so if his understanding of it is based on what you've just told him) then the gentlemanly but not mandatory thing to do is at least double check he knows what the situation is.

Asking to see the rules being used black on white is normal and should not be considered rude. Asking to look at your opponent's Battletome (or whatever) to do so is normal. Bringing hard copies of every warscroll would be ridiculous and looking them up online is time consuming. Don't take it personally or as a sign your opponent thinks you're a lying pos.

It's always good form to be ready to start pregame setup and deployment as soon as the game is supposed to start, not e.g. having left your army on the last table with the models just laying in a mess in the deadpile and wherever they ended the game. Always bring some way to efficiently cart your army between tables.

Personally I count dice by grabbing them by 3s and 2s to make bunches of five. Declare the number of attacks and to-hit/wound/save number verbally both to keep my opponent in the loop and to give him a chance to confirm or correct me if I've missed something. I really dislike it when opponents are not outwardly clear about what they're rolling for and what they need for those rolls, or sweep up the dice before I have any chance to look at the results. Definitely keep a decent pace for rolls though.

Breaks during play are okay but definitely try and keep them to once per game. Nobody wants to sit alone at the table with nothing to do.

[James McPherson]

2 hours ago, James McPherson said:

Edit***

Scenery, do you take it in turns to place one piece of scenery, or just take what is already on the table as verbatim?

It is possible that your opponent could arrive at the table first and place scenery in an advantageous way , ie place a realmgate somewhere that helps them defend their position, so is it best to always place scenery down together?

Also choosing a table edge, if your opponent arrives at the table before you, and you win the roll off, is it ok to make them swap table sides? Do you feel bad about doing it?

 

added some more points above in the edit <<<<<

[MOMUS]

From my personal experience.

1. Be open about lists.

2. Explain what you're trying to do and why, when you're doing it.

3. Roll dice on a neutral part of the board.

4. Don't rely on your opponents lack of knowledge on X to win the game.

5. If you play Terry Pike give him ******.

6. Vote for best painted.

7. Shake hands, don't get a face on.

8. Engage with your opponent, you play face to face for a reason.

9. Be gracious in victory and defeat.

10. Don't be a ******.

[Ratatatata]

As far as scenery goes, I'd guess that the tables have been set by the TO. No idea how they do it at Warhammer World but going from heavy experience from other tournaments and as a TO myself, the tables are set with terrain in advance and the idea is that you don't move it around.

Swapping sides; it's perfectly fine to choose the side your opponent has crowded with his/her stuff, but expect some grunting (that also should come with a smile!)

You've had plenty of good answers above. 

Some players fancy a neat game and are heavily concentrated and don't talk that much, others are all about the fun and getting to know people. I know what kind I like best but both types are fine. 

Just treat it as you would any other pick-up game with someone that's not your mate but make sure opponent wants to call you "mate" once your done.

[James McPherson]

10 minutes ago, Ratatatata said:

As far as scenery goes, I'd guess that the tables have been set by the TO. No idea how they do it at Warhammer World but going from heavy experience from other tournaments and as a TO myself, the tables are set with terrain in advance and the idea is that you don't move it around.

Only reason I ask is because I played a game recently where I arrived second on a table at whw / seeds of hope and there was only one realmgate on the table and it was placed suspiciously right off on the far corner of the board on my opponents side of the table, within 2 or 3 inches of the corner almost flush against the table edge. He was running gunline, I had a mobile combat army.

Not saying he moved it , maybe the players before our game decided to move it out of the way or something, but it would have made a big difference to the game in my favor and can't believe a TO would place it there in such a one sided/funky place.

At the start of the game I thought nothing of it and didn't notice it , but began to be aware of it mid game, so was too late to mention.

[Veterannoob]

Know people shuffle between rounds so a steady tray to move armies is best and obviously be aware everyone is moving at once.

For me personally the handshake is sacred and if I don't have one after a game, something just isn't right for me.

Especially at WHW play to have fun and you both should have fun. If you are say tabling your opponent and none of his stuff worked and you won't lose anything at all by letting a unit or two of his come fight or use their trick then throw him a bone and that goes a long way in enjoyment.

Good luck!

[Tiger]

2 hours ago, pforson said:

Being secretive or hiding information in any way to gain an advantage is just being a numpty. 

Are there rules in AoS that are not public information?

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

Only reason I ask is because I played a game recently where I arrived second on a table at whw / seeds of hope and there was only one realmgate on the table and it was placed suspiciously right off on the far corner of the board on my opponents side of the table, within 2 or 3 inches of the corner almost flush against the table edge. He was running gunline, I had a mobile combat army.

Not saying he moved it , maybe the players before our game decided to move it out of the way or something, but it would have made a big difference to the game in my favor and can't believe a TO would place it there in such a one sided/funky place.

At the start of the game I thought nothing of it and didn't notice it , but began to be aware of it mid game, so was too late to mention.

I'm pretty sure that unless it's specified in the tournament pack then you both arrange scenery as per AoS rules until mutually agreed. Just because it's already set up, doesn't mean the rules don't apply.

Caveat being that many people will just say to leave it as it is to save time.

[pforson]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

Are there rules in AoS that are not public information?

I was referring to this:

4 hours ago, James McPherson said:

Do you usually exhange lists before the game and point out which heroes carry which items etc, or do you keep it as secret as possible?

 

[Nico]

Quote

Swapping sides; it's perfectly fine to choose the side your opponent has crowded with his/her stuff, but expect some grunting (that also should come with a smile!)

This can be vital due to mystical terrain.

 

Also worth checking that terrain is not on objectives as this can give an unfair advantage. Often there are maps which ensure this.

[James McPherson]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

Are there rules in AoS that are not public information?

Only in JJ's sock drawer baby! 

I meant do I have to state upfront which heroes are carrying which arcane items,  and what synergies each formation has etc or can I wait until they are called into play to reveal them, ie for all intents and purposes making them 'secret' on the battlefield until they are used for the first time and revealed.

And also how much to give away when explaining your list and what each thing does/why they are there etc.

I made a mistake before where I was giving a much too detailed explanation of my army to my opponent, and I put great emphasis on telling him to take out one of my heroes to nullify the synergy in my list, in a rather casual manner , and 1 Grudgebearer and 30 Quarellers later the game was over for me on turn 2. He wasn't playing casually at all and he wiped face with me and tabled my entire army and I ended up not enjoying the game much. I got a favorite game vote and my opponent certainly enjoyed it, but whats the point in that , I may as well have gone and laid down in the road outside and let a few cars back over me.

Instead of doing that I could have just said, this formation has ability X and ability Y, and kept it guarded like that, not secret as it were, but in a sense keeping my cards closer to my chest.

I think Bjarni St answered that early on when he mentioned the 'open list' format for AOS prevents you from hiding anything, but to remain guarded about what information you dispense, doing so only at face value.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

Only in JJ's sock drawer baby! 

I meant do I have to state upfront which heroes are carrying which arcane items,  and what synergies each formation has etc or can I wait until they are called into play to reveal them, ie for all intents and purposes making them 'secret' on the battlefield until they are used for the first time and revealed.

And also how much to give away when explaining your list and what each thing does/why they are there etc.

I made a mistake before where I was giving a much too detailed explanation of my army to my opponent, and I put great emphasis on telling him to take out one of my heroes to nullify the synergy in my list, in a rather casual manner , and 1 Grudgebearer and 30 Quarellers later the game was over for me on turn 2. He wasn't playing casually at all and he wiped face with me and tabled my entire army and I ended up not enjoying the game much. I got a favorite game vote and my opponent certainly enjoyed it, but whats the point in that , I may as well have gone and laid down in the road outside and let a few cars back over me.

Instead of doing that I could have just said, this formation has ability X and ability Y, and kept it guarded like that, not secret as it were, but in a sense keeping my cards closer to my chest.

I think Bjarni St answered that early on when he mentioned the 'open list' format for AOS prevents you from hiding anything, but to remain guarded about what information you dispense, doing so only at face value.

This is true of almost any mildly competitive situation, if you tell your opponent exactly how to beat you it will then be hard for them not to do that. And more fool you.

If you only state your army selection, traits, etc and they fail to come to that conclusion, then more fool them.

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, Veterannoob said:

If you are say tabling your opponent and none of his stuff worked and you won't lose anything at all by letting a unit or two of his come fight or use their trick then throw him a bone and that goes a long way in enjoyment.

I will use slight disagreement with that idea to help the OP with another aspect of his topic.

For me, if I get the sense that my opponent has "let" me do anything, or taken it easy on me in any way, it severely diminishes my enjoyment of the game.  I don't mind taking a good solid beating.  I learn from it.  If my opponent stops "teaching" me in the game, my lessons are lessened.  Also, even if my opponent does not mean to come across this way, when her or she goes easy on me, it makes me think that they think I am not a good player and that they don't even have to try hard to beat me.

 

To put it another way, and this is the big thing - Sometimes when you think you are being nice to your opponent, it's actually having the opposite effect. Give him a game.  Go for the most convincing outcome you can get.  It's a tournament after all, and that word has meaning.

[mmimzie]

As a tourney player. All the questions can be answer with. Ask what you need to know, and answer what questions that are posed to you.

Dont be a ******. There is no reason to be.

4 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I will use slight disagreement with that idea to help the OP with another aspect of his topic.

For me, if I get the sense that my opponent has "let" me do anything, or taken it easy on me in any way, it severely diminishes my enjoyment of the game.  I don't mind taking a good solid beating.  I learn from it.  If my opponent stops "teaching" me in the game, my lessons are lessened.  Also, even if my opponent does not mean to come across this way, when her or she goes easy on me, it makes me think that they think I am not a good player and that they don't even have to try hard to beat me.

 

To put it another way, and this is the big thing - Sometimes when you think you are being nice to your opponent, it's actually having the opposite effect. Give him a game.  Go for the most convincing outcome you can get.  It's a tournament after all, and that word has meaning.

This is important. This is a game of strategy. If your gonna flub rules at random or giving people random extra stuff you may as well throw out the rules all together. 

 

I have no idea why folks have to get so upset about rules questions or disputes. It really not a big deal. You guys both look the rule; if you can't agree call a TO, and accept what they say.

 

This said if i no my opponent really has no chance. Than i play the game different. I try to just turn it into a AoS 101 lesson and tell them about al lthe little mistakes and options they might have available if they seem interested.

[Nico]

Quote

I have no idea why folks have to get so upset about rules questions or disputes. It really not a big deal. You guys both look the rule; if you can't agree call a TO, and accept what they say.

Or you can dice it (4+ you're right, less than 4, they are right) - that way you don't force the TO to make a difficult decision and you don't risk setting a bad precedent.

[pforson]

7 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Go for the most convincing outcome you can get.  It's a tournament after all, and that word has meaning.

Sure, but don't forget that some people go to a tourny because it's their only chance of getting a game. It doesn't always have to mean competitive.

[Terry Pike]

12 hours ago, MOMUS said:

If you play Terry Pike give him ******.

Don't be salty because I tabled you at a tournament in Bristol on your birthday

[Tiger]

9 hours ago, James McPherson said:

Only in JJ's sock drawer baby! 

I imagine that drawer has its own eco system.

[RuneBrush]

14 hours ago, MOMUS said:

2. Explain what you're trying to do and why, when you're doing it.

4. Don't rely on your opponents lack of knowledge on X to win the game.

9. Be gracious in victory and defeat.

10. Don't be a ******.

For me these are probably the key most items.  As we discussed @James McPherson at Seeds of Hope, I'm on par with you with tournament experience.  I would say from that one event, my own experience was that the "hard core" tournament players appeared very happy to sit quietly when then knew an opponent had missed something out and knew their army inside out to systematically dismantle each opponent they came across.

10 hours ago, James McPherson said:

I meant do I have to state upfront which heroes are carrying which arcane items,  and what synergies each formation has etc or can I wait until they are called into play to reveal them, ie for all intents and purposes making them 'secret' on the battlefield until they are used for the first time and revealed.

I think this makes sense on arcane items/traits as they're a fairly new mechanic.  Synergies I would say play by ear - I tend to ask each opponent if they've played against specific units (Wrathmongers for me) and roughly outline what they do if they're not sure.  I won't do it for every unit but just the ones that have a big effect.

1 hour ago, Terry Pike said:

Don't be salty because I tabled you at a tournament in Bristol on your birthday

That's mean!  Funny, but mean