Battletomes from last 2 years: From "best" to "worst"

[Juicy]

Good

 

gloomspite, mawtribes, tzeentch, khorne, citys of sigmar.

i do like the flavor of the books and it feels like the units do things they should do.

bonereapers could be amazing if the peri+1 save is changed or gone. So people would build more diverse lists. Atm peri is to strong to ignore. 
 

i like what gw tryed with the beastmen book but it fails a bit with the powerlevel of monsters and bullgors. Could be fixed with ease tho

bad

stormcast, zero internal balance. Most heroes are useless and zero synergie between older units. Big unit bases with low damage. Almost none of the battalions really doing something and 1 boring anvilsshootcast is the way. Stardrakes have wierd non interactive mechanics. Very disappointed. I try to do a warrior chamber list just cause i like the basic paladins and liberators but men they do suck. 
 

slaanesh cause... reasons pointed out already and idoneth deepkin aswell. Eelspam aint fun to play against

[l1censetochill]

On 1/20/2020 at 11:55 AM, chosen_of_khaine said:

I don't know what people are talking about when they say the OBR tome has bad internal balance. Besides two useless heroes (Soulreaper and Vokmortian), you can bring literally anything in the book and not feel like you're intentionally handicapping yourself. I understand this is a function of having the generic battleline (and the faction as a whole) be powerful, but literally every unit has a role that it can play, with only some minor mismatches (Morgast vs Stalkers).

I should note, however, that my other primary AoS army is Idoneth, so basically any semblance of internal balance looks good to me...

The remarks about the internal balance of OBR (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the Warscrolls or units themselves. The issue is just that Petrifex Elite is so ridiculously powerful compared to every other Legion in their book that there's no reason to ever consider choosing anything else... unless you're intentionally choosing to nerf yourself in a friendly game so your opponent can have fun too.

I mean, seriously. The lists for CanCon and LVO (two of the biggest AOS tournaments of the year) are out now. In both tournaments, OBR are the #1 most played army, and it isn't close (18 OBR at CanCon, 19 at LVO vs. 13 for the next-highest faction). And of those OBR lists? Every. Single. One. Is Petrifex Elite. If that isn't a sign of a poorly balanced book, I don't know what is.

[chosen_of_khaine]

6 hours ago, l1censetochill said:

The remarks about the internal balance of OBR (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the Warscrolls or units themselves. The issue is just that Petrifex Elite is so ridiculously powerful compared to every other Legion in their book that there's no reason to ever consider choosing anything else... unless you're intentionally choosing to nerf yourself in a friendly game so your opponent can have fun too.

I mean, seriously. The lists for CanCon and LVO (two of the biggest AOS tournaments of the year) are out now. In both tournaments, OBR are the #1 most played army, and it isn't close (18 OBR at CanCon, 19 at LVO vs. 13 for the next-highest faction). And of those OBR lists? Every. Single. One. Is Petrifex Elite. If that isn't a sign of a poorly balanced book, I don't know what is.

That's a fair criticism, though I find unit option balance MUCH more important than sub-faction options (which could honestly not exist at all for any faction and barely make a difference). Unit choices are responsible for much more of the variability between games than getting an extra command ability or artifact.

And just glancing through the CanCon lists, every single unit from the OBR tome is present at the tournament besides Vokmortian and the Soulreaper. That's pretty incredible. You have lists with an all-deathrider battleline, lists with minimum squads of mortek, Nagash, Katakros, and Arkhan lists, and lists with no named characters whatsoever. That sounds like a battletome with great internal balance to me!

Edited January 22, 2020 by chosen_of_khaine

[123lac]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:42 PM, Icegoat said:

Worst by far was cities of sigmar no viable builds without buying two new whole armies to go with your existing dwarfs/empire/elfs delete as a appropriate. A total gutting of all entire ranges within the army. A despicable act and heinous money grab. I'm sure the army will be squatted by next year. We don't want normal humans when we can have more storm cast. 

Best is gloomspite gitz the new stone trolls are the best model kit I've painted and built in an age. And it made old warhammer fantasy units viable and better the entire opposite of cities of sigmar mass squatting and degrading of old units. 

I'm surprised how little backlash there was to Cities of Sigmar given how obvious it is that they don't care about supporting the old model lines from WHFB any longer. The tome is clearly a final farewell to the empire, dwarves and elves.

[TheCovenLord]

These are arranged by how I believe the factions options/play/rules work out on the table. If I was arranging by flavor it would be completely different. 

Good:

 

Mawtribes, Khorne, CoS, Bonesplitterz, Ironjawz, Slaves, Sylvaneth, KO, Seraphon, Tzeentch, Nurgle, LoN, Gloomspite

 

The tomes I believe are most balanced and if pitted against one another would lead to interesting battles. Many options, few standouts that skew lists but also very few options that break the game in significant ways.  Obviously there will always be better and worse options if you're playing competitive but overall these tomes appear to have some restraint when it came to combo'ing interactions. 

Bad:

Ossiarch Bonereapers (PE), Skaven, FEC, Slaanesh,  Nighthaunt, Orruk Warclans, Daughters of Khaine, Fyreslayers, IDK

Over-strength options, generally undercosted, single list meatgrinder factions that excel in the current state of AoS. I have rarely enjoyed games against any of these particular factions as they deal incredible damage/durability/utility for their supposed points cost and almost to a T can do anything the other listed factions can for either cheaper or free ignoring any or all restrictions or roadblocks the other factions have to take into account to carry out their combo's. Simply not healthy for the game overall and all need a harsh balance pass with some rules rewrites (ex: hag narr, warchanters, PE, skaven points costs overall, slaanesh still needs some work although the recent nerfs have made it bearable to play against them)

Caveats #1:  OBR is only on here because of PE, otherwise I would have placed it in good.

Caveat #2: Nighthaunt is here because it is overall a poorly written tome with a few weak options that are severally overcosted (likely the ethereal rule was considered too powerful before mortal wounds became so plentiful leading to very expensive unit options that do not appear to be very tough any more). A glut of heroes that all offer very samey bonuses that are overall weak when compared to other factions.

 

Caveat #3:  IDK, they are on here because eels are the only really viable way to play them. Which is very dissapointing as they have such an interesting theme.

 

Send it to the abyss:

 Beasts of Chaos, Stormcast

Horrid writing, weak options, extremely poorly costed points (bullgors/cygors for example), a terrain piece that takes many turns to become truly effective, basically no viable lists without stealing from tzeentch. A monster faction with no usable monsters. I feel horrible for the player in our group running his best bestigor list and consistently losing. Weak summoning, weak options, weak rules and weak points costs. 

The stormcast players just have a bloated monstrosity of options with most of them being rendered redundant by the few solid options. Just nuke the lineup its got so many samey models that I don't even remember what half of them are except flavor of paladin X/Y.

[Kramer]

On 1/24/2020 at 4:21 AM, 123lac said:

I'm surprised how little backlash there was to Cities of Sigmar given how obvious it is that they don't care about supporting the old model lines from WHFB any longer. The tome is clearly a final farewell to the empire, dwarves and elves.

@Icegoat is that you? 

 

[Sedraxis]

It's very amusing and sad at the same time to see so many people rate tomes like OBR as bad, yet Tzeentch and other similar tomes as good just because some %stats and internet talk told you it was OP. Can't wait to see the same people jump on the Tzeentch hatewagon as soon as the first tourney results are in.

Shows how little most people actually know.

I wish this forum had a separate balance discussion subforum so all this talk doesn't get in the way of positive, creative and constructive content.

[Kirjava13]

2 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

It's very amusing and sad at the same time to see so many people rate tomes like OBR as bad, yet Tzeentch and other similar tomes as good just because some %stats and internet talk told you it was OP. Can't wait to see the same people jump on the Tzeentch hatewagon as soon as the first tourney results are in.

Shows how little most people actually know.

I wish this forum had a separate balance discussion subforum so all this talk doesn't get in the way of positive, creative and constructive content.

Just re: Tzeentch, I saw people describing playing against it at some of this week's tournaments as super depressing on Twitter. One guy said it was some of the most draining Warhammer he had ever played- he'd drawn Tzeentch three times yesterday and was close to quitting even though he'd managed to scrape wins against two of them, the play experience was that negative.

[Phasteon]

51 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Just re: Tzeentch, I saw people describing playing against it at some of this week's tournaments as super depressing on Twitter. One guy said it was some of the most draining Warhammer he had ever played- he'd drawn Tzeentch three times yesterday and was close to quitting even though he'd managed to scrape wins against two of them, the play experience was that negative.

I have 2 major issues with the book: 

1) The ridiculous amount of good shooting Tzeentch can teleport around the board. 

12 Flamers in a changehost can be buffed to a 2+/2+ -1 D3 with a total or 36 shots for 480p. And they can target anything on the board t1 because of changehost being 1 drop. Sure, they absolutely cant take the retaliation but that damage output should not exist in the shooting phase (at least not for those points, i left out the points of the synergy models because they have their value by themselves, eg exalted flamers putting out an equal numbers or shots) 

2) 50 wounds for 200 points that can easily create more wounds by autopassing morale with a destiny 1 if not fully converted to lesser horrors. 

The rule that they split is super cool and fun imo, but Horrors would either need to be 

a) complete trash besides spawning bodies, so no casting, no shooting (maybe 1 shot on 5+/5+, but they can be buffed too much) 

 

b) cost about 300 points for 10 as other hordes with a wound pool comparatively high. 

I have yet to face the army in an actual game so those are all assumptions, but I have a good friend that already explained the biggest cheese he might want to play and I must say I‘m not that eager to see if those numbers play out as frustrating as they seem on paper. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Phasteon

[Clan's Cynic]

On 1/24/2020 at 3:21 AM, 123lac said:

I'm surprised how little backlash there was to Cities of Sigmar given how obvious it is that they don't care about supporting the old model lines from WHFB any longer. The tome is clearly a final farewell to the empire, dwarves and elves.

There's been little backlash because it's still up in the air whether or not it's a true farewell. Everybody would have expected Mawtribes to be something similar, but then along comes the new Tyrant. Watribes similarly didn't get nadda and it's apparent they won't get the cut on account of the Ironjawz being an 'AoS army'.

The other thing is that the Cities themselves are just so established in the lore. They're what the majority of the new Black Library fiction revolves around, they're at least referenced quite considerably in just about every Battletome. I do think that between the updates Warriors of Chaos and much more grounded Not-HighElves, Free Guild will at least continue along very similar lines to as they do now.

i don't think most bitter, jaded, WHFB players (see: me) would have a problem with the Not-Empire models getting a WoC-esq update, since even if WHFB was still around that was going to happen.

The question's going to be whether Dispossessed get spun-off. Wanderers will certainly get replaced by Kurnothi at least. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Clan's Cynic

[AaronWilson]

For me the best books are Orruk Warclans & Cities of Sigmar, excellent depth in both books, lots of viable warscrolls, makes for just so many potential armies that can all compete and all ave there own flavour.