Playing Cities of Sigmar: are you really?

[dekay]

There's a thing that pops up in many CoS tactical discussions and I wonder if you've noticed it and what's your opinion about it.

Especially in the discussions of 'I can't win with CoS, what am I doing wrong' kind.

It looks like this: someone either asks for advice or posts a battle report in wich CoS lose. You look at the army list and it is, say mostly darkling covens infantry lead by a dreadlord on dragon. Maybe even with some drakespawn. The army gets demolished. And the player asks 'I keep losing with my dark elf themed list, what can I improve in my tactics?"

Or the other one: "this is my list, but i keep struggling with mobility, how can I counter it". The list is 100% disposessed. The player can be finally persuaded to consider gyrocopters at least, they're dwarves too... Everything else is out of question.

"I need a substitute for an ambush unit, I can't use shadow warriors as I'm playing freeguild"...

There's a lot of those. 

If we look at those winrate statistics floating around, CoS is below average despite seeming like a solid army... and I can't help but wonder if it's because many people claiming to play CoS simply.. well.. aren't. Disposessed, darklings or freeguild were barely playable factions in their GHB days and now they simply... aren't. Those factions are basically gone. There's one faction now, it's called Cities of Sigmar, and it has a huge unit roster. The most obvious synergies are inside the old mini-factions, yes, but they are not the only ones.

Those irondrakes buffed by the runelord are good, but teleported with a bridge cast by a sorceress who just sacrificed a bleaksword to get +2 to cast, they are *better*.

Those sisters of the watch buffed by the prince are good, but with a hurricanum behind them, they are *better*.

The living city ambush skill used to teleport a wanderer unit, like in the old days, is good, but if you teleport a dragon it is, probably, *better*.

If you look at this like this, the question "I refuse to use 80% of my options, why do I keep losing" answers itself.

What I'm asking for is has anyone else noticed that some of us here have a problem of embracing the fact that we're a combined faction now? Did you have this problem at the beginning? Do you have it now?

[Overread]

The problem is likely that most people getting into Cities have a dark elf/dwarf/empire army that was functional and which is nearly all there in cities from what is left in AoS. So they aren't so much just ignoring the other armies; they don't own the models and are trying to make an army that used to work work once again in the new Tome.

It's likley not helped by the fact that painting and model style varies a LOT between the different groups. Dwarves look and are painted nothing like Dark Elves. So visually they appear separate even if they are now in the same Tome. It's likely going to be an issue that remains until GW gets new marketing material out there showing off combined armies and until new people are playing cities with combined forces.

Change will come, it will just take time. 

 

Don't forget many of those armies were totally separate things, heck Dark Elves hated EVERYONE at one stage in Cities. 

 

Note the Wood Elves players are likely more adaptable if just because they've lost a lot more leaving behind very little of their original army. Heck they don't even have any wood elf archers left and they were once one of the most powerful core themes of wood elves. The same also goes for high elves too; again they lost a huge amount and many of their most core and iconic units are flat out gone. 

[zilberfrid]

GW isn't really helping, because the heroes do nothing for other factions.

When I splash in a few Drakespawn Knights, they don't improve when being near a General on Griffin. I'd have to put in another hero for them to be their best, which gets really pricy.

CoS really lends itself for massive conversions though, there are so many cut units that can easily stand in as other units that do still exist, which can really help you keep a theme visually (which is an important reason why people keep to smaller lists).

[Overread]

Yeah I'm betting there are a lot of glade guard being used as archers from cities of sigmar that have remained. 

[dekay]

6 minutes ago, Overread said:

The problem is likely that most people getting into Cities have a dark elf/dwarf/empire army that was functional and which is nearly all there in cities from what is left in AoS. So they aren't so much just ignoring the other armies; they don't own the models and are trying to make an army that used to work work once again in the new Tome.

That is, certainly, a part of the problem. Overlapping a bit with the fact that many of the older generation of players harbour a strong aversion towards the stormcast that, too, should be considered a part of our roster. But among the players who simply haven't put together a list built for the CoS battletome, there do seem to be some who outright refuse to. The first category inevitably will start working out competitive lists soon. I wonder about the second.

4 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

GW isn't really helping, because the heroes do nothing for other factions.

That is true. I think CoS armies have to be built in segments that support one another, together with some elements that do support other factions. Every Collegiate unit is welcome in basically any army because they all offer something universal. Hurricanum might be our best unit in general. But apart from those, yeah, it's a few semi self sufficient detachment (say, demigryphs with general, sisters with prince, black guard with sorceress)

[Overread]

I can actually understand stormcast being outcast quite a bit in cities. Technically they are in there, but at the same time Stormcast are their own full faction. They've got every single option that they need (and some doubles); so I can see Cities players not really wanting to bring ANOTHER army into an army that is already chock full (techincally) of options on its own. 

Most other factions can take SC allies in Order, but the faction itself has a single appearance/design asthetic. Even smaller forces like Daughters of Khaine and Fyreslayers work well totally on their own without any Stormcast; so I'm not surprised Cities players would want the same. For their faction to work without need of Sigmar. 

[Gecktron]

I agree with the premise of the post. Trying to make "pure" factions work on a competitive level just doesnt work. 

Im kinda lucky as I didnt had any old backage (I sold my High Elves before the End Times), so I could come into AoS with an open mind. I play a human focused Hammerhal list but I make liberal use of Stormcasts, Chariots, Shadow Warriors, ect. to fill gaps in my list and I was rather succesfull so far. 

[zilberfrid]

9 minutes ago, dekay said:

That is, certainly, a part of the problem. Overlapping a bit with the fact that many of the older generation of players harbour a strong aversion towards the stormcast that, too, should be considered a part of our roster. But among the players who simply haven't put together a list built for the CoS battletome, there do seem to be some who outright refuse to. The first category inevitably will start working out competitive lists soon. I wonder about the second.

That is true. I think CoS armies have to be built in segments that support one another, together with some elements that do support other factions. Every Collegiate unit is welcome in basically any army because they all offer something universal. Hurricanum might be our best unit in general. But apart from those, yeah, it's a few semi self sufficient detachment (say, demigryphs with general, sisters with prince, black guard with sorceress)

As for Stormcast, they are the personification of AoS, and people that played in Fantasy (thus still having CoS models) could have bad feelings about that. Plus, let's politely say that their aestetic is divise, and certainly contrasting with CoS models. They also don't work with CoS hero bonusses.

College is often welcome, because they provide no faction specific bonus, so you don't feel cheated out of an ability if that unit isn't there.

I wouldn't say demigryphs with a general are a detachment, the general can't keep up, and only gives bonusses if the demi's don't move. The General on Griffin works, but is a bit expensive; one minimal unit of demis and the GoG is 500 points already, that's 25% of the army. The batallion for Hammerhal is half.

[dekay]

1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

I wouldn't say demigryphs with a general are a detachment, the general can't keep up, and only gives bonusses if the demi's don't move. The General on Griffin works, but is a bit expensive; one minimal unit of demis and the GoG is 500 points already, that's 25% of the army. The batallion for Hammerhal is half.

Oh, I meant griffon general, didn't clarify. Sorry. I'd still see it as a segment, though, even if we're talking GoG and 2x3 demis, it still leaves a lot for the rest of army.

Some detachments are kinda expensive. 30 phoenix guard and frostheart annointed is 740 points. Sorceress, 40 darkshards and 10 battery/retinue bleakswords is 580.  4 helstorms, cogsmith and ordinator is 720.

The thing is, you can easily fit 2-3 of such detachments into your force, and still have a place for, say, hurricanum, or a battlemage and a unit of shadow warriors, or some other support elements.

[SwampHeart]

@dekay I agree 100%. This is a drum I've been beating since CoS came out and you're correct we've seen it time and time again. Person says Cities is a bad book, you look at their list - its entirely unoptimized running pure DE or Dispossessed or whatever. The book is called Cities of Sigmar, it is clearly designed to be played using various pieces from all of the units in it to get the most leverage. The book isn't for you to remake your old WHFB into a new and shiny competitive army, if it was for that it would be Battletome: Dispossessed (et. all). 

[JackStreicher]

I don‘t have issues with CoS, I like to mix factions since I am quickly bored.

the only issue I have winning with is

*drawing the sword of everlasting salt*
Anvilgard

😂

Edited December 18, 2019 by JackStreicher
Spelling

[TomParry84]

I personally think the cities book is pretty awesome, lots of variety and lots of good lists can be made IMO.

I can see it taking a while to settle as you can get overwhelmed with the sheer amount of options you can go for.

Personally I feel the way forward probably is still keeping most of your army one race, and then using the rest to fill in various gaps.

Also, as a stormcast player it seems like they have been hugely overlooked so far, with a lot of useful units that can add to the book

[Thiagoma]

You are right. I collect High Elves and if i cant proxy something, i wont use it.  Got some Wanderers now to fill some gaps on my forces tho.

That said i am ok with that and actually did well on my first tournament using Phoenix Temple + mages and shadow warriors (went 2x1 againt mawtribes, Sylvaneth and Stormcast) using Hallowheart.

Now i am improving my list and overall i am enjoying the book.

[Acid_Nine]

Can you guys show off of a good mixed list? Every time I try to write one I get bogged down by the fact my general’s command abilities won’t affect them or that I run out of points trying to get other things I want.

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Acid_Nine said:

Can you guys show off of a good mixed list? Every time I try to write one I get bogged down by the fact my general’s command abilities won’t affect them or that I run out of points trying to get other things I want.

Just as a rough example this is my TE list that I've been having a lot of success with lately.

-Aether-khemist (Patrician's Helm)
-Battle Mage - Hysh, General (Hawk-eyed)
-Celestial Hurricanum (Ignax Scales)
-Freeguild General on Griffon
-30 Arkanaut Company (9x Skyhooks)
-20 Handgunners (honored retinue)
-2 units of 5 Outriders
-1 unit of 5 Pistoliers
-10 Shadow Warriors
Aetherguard Wind Runners
Soul Scream Bridge 

Got some Dwarfs, some Elves, and some Freeguild in there. 

[Acid_Nine]

35 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Just as a rough example this is my TE list that I've been having a lot of success with lately.

-Aether-khemist (Patrician's Helm)
-Battle Mage - Hysh, General (Hawk-eyed)
-Celestial Hurricanum (Ignax Scales)
-Freeguild General on Griffon
-30 Arkanaut Company (9x Skyhooks)
-20 Handgunners (honored retinue)
-2 units of 5 Outriders
-1 unit of 5 Pistoliers
-10 Shadow Warriors
Aetherguard Wind Runners
Soul Scream Bridge 

Got some Dwarfs, some Elves, and some Freeguild in there. 

I've been seeing this kind of stuff but It also kinda makes me nervous? To quote a wendy's add "where's the beef?" There looks like there is almost no close combat to speak of!

Edited December 18, 2019 by Acid_Nine

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

I've been seeing this kind of stuff but It also kinda makes me nervous? To quote a wendy's add "where's the beef?" There looks like there is almost no close combat to speak of!

Don't need combat when you delete units wholesale. The damage output on those Skyhooks is unreal (18 3/2/-2/d3 shots a turn), plus the handgunner output is admirable (20 3/2/-1/1 shots a turn) with the ability to stand and shoot to clean up most of what's left. 

[feraxil]

7 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Don't need combat when you delete units wholesale. The damage output on those Skyhooks is unreal (18 3/2/-2/d3 shots a turn), plus the handgunner output is admirable (20 3/2/-1/1 shots a turn) with the ability to stand and shoot to clean up most of what's left. 

What have you noticed giving you trouble/fits in your games?

[SwampHeart]

Just now, feraxil said:

What have you noticed giving you trouble/fits in your games?

The army is a bit unwieldy (keeping the handgunners and crew inside the relevant bubbles) which means it needs to point and shoot in the same general vector so if I position poorly early it can make it difficult to respond to the rest of the game. Armies with lots of teleports (especially late game) can be tricky because its hard to both keep yourself screened and play for objectives. I've played against a decent variety of styles of list at this point (NH, SCE, OBR, HoS, IDK, Big Waagh, and DoK) and honestly I feel like this is rounded enough that I haven't had a headache game yet. You do have to pilot it and really understand how to get the most out of the mounted units to get good results but so far its worked out really well for me (I've taken 2 FLGS one dayers with it so far). 

[Greed]

Can you guys give ne some advise how to make this list better? Maybe throw out the War-Hyrda for something else?

++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Cities of Sigmar) [1,980pts] ++

+ Leader +

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage [280pts]
. Celestial Battlemage: 1. Aura of Glory

Dreadlord on Black Dragon [300pts]: 1. Patrician’s Helm, Lance of Spite and Tyrant Shield

Knight-Azyros [100pts]: General's Adjutant

Sorceress [90pts]: 2. Hawk-eyed, 3. Celestial Visions, General

+ Behemoth +

War Hydra [170pts]

+ Battleline +

Black Guard [420pts]: 3x 10 Black Guard

Darkshards [300pts]: 3x 10 Darkshards

Dreadspears [90pts]: 10 Dreadspears, Honoured Retinue

+ Other +

Scourgerunner Chariots [150pts]: 3x Scourgerunner Chariot

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar: Tempest's Eye

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Realm of Origin +

Realm of Origin: Origin: Aqshy

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Soulscream Bridge [80pts]

++ Total: [1,980pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

[kenshin620]

I do agree it would be a bit easier if you had "This model helps ORDER models" abiilities.

Like the Excelsior Warpriest. Who doesn't exist anymore for some reason.

[Karazla]

I play mixed and had a lot of fun. Mostly I just wanted to reason to fully convert a army. I have now 4500 converted tempest eye.

[dekay]

1 hour ago, Greed said:

Can you guys give ne some advise how to make this list better? Maybe throw out the War-Hyrda for something else?

Alright, so. I'm not a fan of 'rebuild your list from scratch' kind of advice so feel free to ignore whatever I have to offer.

1. I don't think you have any use for the bridge. Scourgerunners are mobile as hell, darkshards with command ability have like 33 inches of threat range, black guard are perfectly capable of 1st turn charge as well. Bridge is expensive. No reason to have it if you don't have any 'if static' units.

2. Dragon. I like dragons. However, Im not sure if this dreadlord is the best pick here, honestly. Next to nothing to use command ability on (alright, there's a hydra.) and probably not the best carrier of the 'no battleshock' aura. Plus, I think that in most circumstances griffon does the same job better (unless you are, say, living city and need a ranged attack on him). However, as I understand that 'no dragon' is an extremely disappointing advice when you wanter a dragon, may I interest you in a sorceress instead? Yeah, she loses half of armour save compared to the dreadlord but! Inspire Hatred does terrible things when put on black guard, and foot version doesn't get it. She's probably a better carrier of aura of glory than hurricanum is, given that she *wants* to be near the frontline, and simultanoiusly that makes black guard +1 to hit bonus from a friendly character much easier to get. That way hurricanum and foot sorceress can comfortably babysit your shooters.

3. Darkshards, which I am one of the most devoted proponents of, are a 'go big or go home' unit. Sorceress/ hawk eyed/ hurricanum/azyros make them into n incredible threat to anything with 4+ or worse save. Take 40. They need stacked buffs to work properly, and it's best to stack them on largest amount of models possible. You've just saved some points on a bridge. You can almost afford it already. If you're open to throwing out the hydra - all the better.

4. As an alternative to soulscream bridge, as far as endless spells go, emerald lifeswarm would be kinda cool here. Both black guard and dragon (especially a sorceress who can cast it herself) would like it very much. If the hydra is out and you have points to spare, consider buying a command point. You need your command abilities.

5. Adjutant azyros wil rarely be within range of the sorceress general. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but hurricanum general with sorceress adjutant might be better. You're losing out on retinue, sadly, and putting two auras on a single model, so don't quote me on this one. Or get a battlemage in there, wildform would help black guard in their sprint, and he'd be a good adjutant to the sorceress general. ; )

 

27 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

I do agree it would be a bit easier if you had "This model helps ORDER models" abiilities.

Like the Excelsior Warpriest. Who doesn't exist anymore for some reason.

Yeah, from those we have only hurricanum, luminark, battlemages from certain realms, azyros and ordinator. I don't think I'm forgetting anyone here. Not a great choice, but luckily they offer some solid benefits. Plus, there's a lot of city specific traits, spells and artifacts that don't discriminate, too.

14 minutes ago, Karazla said:

I have now 4500 converted tempest eye.

The council demands to see it ; )

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Greed said:

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage

Dreadlord on Black Dragon : 1. Patrician’s Helm, Lance of Spite and Tyrant Shield

Knight-Azyros: General's Adjutant

Sorceress : 2. Hawk-eyed, 3. Celestial Visions, General

War Hydra 

Black Guard : 3x 10 Black Guard

Darkshards : 3x 10 Darkshards

Dreadspears : 10 Dreadspears, Honoured Retinue

Scourgerunner Chariots : 3x Scourgerunner Chariot

Realm of Origin: Origin: Aqshy

Endless Spell: Soulscream Bridge

This feels really unfocused - you've got your general with the immune to BS artifact on a large dragon who presumably wants operate independently of the rest of the army. You're running Hawk Eyed but you've only got one unit to really take advantage of it and you've got your adjutant bonus on a model that needs to be close to enemy models to grant his bonus. 

I've tried to re-orient the list using a similar theme but with a bit more of a coherent package.

-Sorcereress on Black Dragon - Witch Rod, Witch Lash, Aura of Glory Swapped to a Sorcereress here to give you access to to run and charge for your blackguard + possibly buffing them with re-rolling 1s to hit and to wound depending on positioning
-Battle Mage of Hysh - Strike of Eagles, General's Adjutant, Patrician's Helm This guy will mostly be casting Pha's on your Darkshards or Longbeards
-Sorceress - General (Hawk Eyed), Celestial Visions This is your general, can help generate extra CP as needed, cast SSB, or her own debuff situationally
-30x Blackguard Kept these guys in since I'm guessing you're pretty fond, working to make them stand alone with the Black Dragon Sorc
-30x Dark Shards Good shooting unit to put out a volume to help clear screens for your BG
-20x Longbeards I know this one seems odd but LB in TE are very good, you'll be able to move them a minimum of 9" on turn one, they have a 3+ (2+ in melee) on the first turn as well, these guys should act as a great screen to keep your shooters in action all game/give you an early durable scorer
-10x Bleak Swords - Retinue A nice cheap retinue/sacrifice bait unit for your foot Sorc as needed
-3x Vanguard Raptors with Long Strike Crossbows I wanted to give you a second unit to benefit from the hurricanum/hawk eyed and these guys fill a nice niche in your army, allowing you to aim for support heroes to give you a lead in pressure. They really benefit from TE here because you can move on the first turn and exceed the lost range
-Celestial Hurricanum (non character variant) I'd have prefered this was a caster but points wouldn't allow, even without a wizard on the back this will support your shooting core, give you some MW drops and give your Battle Mage +1 to cast
-Soulscream Bridge I kept the Bridge in because it can really help you deal with a gap in enemy positioning/late game scoring, etc.

I hope this is helpful without seeming to entirely rewrite your whole list. 

[Karazla]

1 hour ago, dekay said:

Alright, so. I'm not a fan of 'rebuild your list from scratch' kind of advice so feel free to ignore whatever I have to offer.

1. I don't think you have any use for the bridge. Scourgerunners are mobile as hell, darkshards with command ability have like 33 inches of threat range, black guard are perfectly capable of 1st turn charge as well. Bridge is expensive. No reason to have it if you don't have any 'if static' units.

2. Dragon. I like dragons. However, Im not sure if this dreadlord is the best pick here, honestly. Next to nothing to use command ability on (alright, there's a hydra.) and probably not the best carrier of the 'no battleshock' aura. Plus, I think that in most circumstances griffon does the same job better (unless you are, say, living city and need a ranged attack on him). However, as I understand that 'no dragon' is an extremely disappointing advice when you wanter a dragon, may I interest you in a sorceress instead? Yeah, she loses half of armour save compared to the dreadlord but! Inspire Hatred does terrible things when put on black guard, and foot version doesn't get it. She's probably a better carrier of aura of glory than hurricanum is, given that she *wants* to be near the frontline, and simultanoiusly that makes black guard +1 to hit bonus from a friendly character much easier to get. That way hurricanum and foot sorceress can comfortably babysit your shooters.

3. Darkshards, which I am one of the most devoted proponents of, are a 'go big or go home' unit. Sorceress/ hawk eyed/ hurricanum/azyros make them into n incredible threat to anything with 4+ or worse save. Take 40. They need stacked buffs to work properly, and it's best to stack them on largest amount of models possible. You've just saved some points on a bridge. You can almost afford it already. If you're open to throwing out the hydra - all the better.

4. As an alternative to soulscream bridge, as far as endless spells go, emerald lifeswarm would be kinda cool here. Both black guard and dragon (especially a sorceress who can cast it herself) would like it very much. If the hydra is out and you have points to spare, consider buying a command point. You need your command abilities.

5. Adjutant azyros wil rarely be within range of the sorceress general. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but hurricanum general with sorceress adjutant might be better. You're losing out on retinue, sadly, and putting two auras on a single model, so don't quote me on this one. Or get a battlemage in there, wildform would help black guard in their sprint, and he'd be a good adjutant to the sorceress general. ; )

 

Yeah, from those we have only hurricanum, luminark, battlemages from certain realms, azyros and ordinator. I don't think I'm forgetting anyone here. Not a great choice, but luckily they offer some solid benefits. Plus, there's a lot of city specific traits, spells and artifacts that don't discriminate, too.

The council demands to see it ; )

I will make a post this weekend with all the pics