AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[ibel]

For Archaon:

Mhmm i think u cant count him just in therme of dmg and Defense. Some of his Abilitys are really good. (No Rally No Inspiring or just to know ho go first next round (could be a game Changer like.... Glootkins "Blightkrieg")) So with Run+Charge he is super Modill with Khorne u boost his Attacks or with Tzeenth u can cast him out off a CC. There are many Thinks. But hey i think for competativ he is a littel bit too expensive (maybe something like 700-750 is okay) For his point u get (not exact but..) 9 (!!) Varanguards !! Thats heavy...(I believe the Varanguards are more expensive in the next FAQ Round (Archaon to 780 and 3 Varanguard to 310 so u can Play a Archaon + Sorcerer + 3x3 Vranaguards   )

Belakor is a cool Centerpiece. And his "Dark Master" is a killer Ability with can win u the game. But no he is not a "ONE-MEN-ARMY"- beatstick...

I think Marauder Hroseman are really good for his points for screen.

And Corvus Kabale....

[Malakithe]

11 hours ago, Bayul said:

"Exalted Hero of Chaos" is listed as Leader.

What is the purpose of this new guy anyway? Slow HERO and MONSTER hunter? Cheap Cabalists caster hybrid? Eye of the Gods slot machine? 

edit: ...uh, like a Sorcerer Lord in Terminator Armor?

Yeah you use him for parts for cool kitbashing

[Sinfullyvannila]

18 hours ago, Grimrock said:

Yeah Archaon is in a weird place right now. He's lost all the tools around him that made him really good without much to compensate. It is pretty big he can take slaanesh to run and charge or he can get a 3d6 charge from the spell, but once he gets stuck in he's not going to do a ton of damage against something with decent defenses. So he's fast and extremely resilient, but doesn't hit very hard. He just doesn't really provide anything for the army that you can't get cheaper and better elsewhere. For example a 10 man unit of knights has more wounds at the same save (albeit without the always on ward), is more than fast enough in legion of the first prince or with mark of slaanesh, hits way harder, and is about half the price. 

Personally I think he's no longer competitively viable. In theory that's fine because you dont need to only play competitive models right? Just play what's fun. The problem is he doesn't look fun anymore either. He lost a ton of his cool rules and a lot of synergy. Basically now he's just a huge bullet sponge that flies around the table being annoying and never dying.  That doesn't sound fun for me to play or for my opponent to play against.  

Also as an aside I'm super annoyed that he can't get marks outside of S2D anymore. I originally bought him before I started slaves because I figured I could always find a use for him in at least one of my armies. Even if he was no good in slaanesh maybe he'd be good in khorne for example. Now without marks though he's essentially faction locked to slaves and it just sucks. I had a little while of him being mediocre but fun in a few armies, then the book came out and he was so overpowered I didn't want to play him because I'd feel bad for my opponent, and now he's just so... bleh and boring that I don't want to play him either. 

His monstrous rampages are great, you get a lot more value out of his fights on death because other units are better than before, and his command shutdown aura is huge on his base.

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

His monstrous rampages are great, you get a lot more value out of his fights on death because other units are better than before, and his command shutdown aura is huge on his base.

The monstrous rampages are really nice, but they're part of what I'm saying about loss of flavour. Before you could do a Titanic Duel or a Roar AND pick a head ability, now you're forced into just one. It's not a huge deal, it's just a little loss in exciting and fun stuff you could be doing with your big stompy monster.

Fight on death is indeed a lot better, but I'd counter that with saying things have also gotten a lot more resilient so it'll come up less often. The ideal pick for it used to be marauders as they combined an excellent combat profile (when buffed) with the ability to die in droves when the enemy looked at them sideways. Now that marauders are trash in combat (as they should be) you're looking at using it on chaos warriors or knights or chosen, but realistically how many of those do you expect to die in a given combat? I suppose it might be good on splintered fang for the mortal wounds, but the other issue is he lost his free command point every turn. Using the ability comes at a real cost now and if it's only going to let you attack with three or four models it might be better to skip it and do an Inspiring Presence or All Out Defense instead.

Totally agree on Crown of Domination, the aura is huge. Shutting down Rally is of... questionable use since they can't do it in combat anymore but turning off Inspiring Presence will definitely come up often. It kind of sucks that the crown no longer provides any buffs for his own troops, but this is one of the few changes that actually just seems like a straight improvement. 

I'm not trying to say Archaon is trash tier or anything, he's still super hard to kill and if you don't roll a ton of ones his attacks can still bring a ton of hurt. It just feels bad reading through his scroll when pretty much every change has a negative. Trust me I want to play him and I'll be happy if he ends up being fun! I love the model, I loved building and painting him (all 40 hours that it took haha), and I love the way he looks on the table. He was the first thing I wanted to play last book and I was so excited to see all the synergy and possibilities he had, but this edition I just can't seem to get excited about trying him out. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

Just going to point out that Khorne marked Splintered Fang outdamage Knights on the charge in 4+ armor saves right now. Vince Venturella did the math on his show last night. I don't recall if it was adjusted for points or not, but if it wasn't they did over double(since SF min buy is less than half). And they are even more efficient in ravagers because you get them back in both you and your opponents turn.

The Darkoaths should also do pretty well in damage with fights-last assuming SF get nerfed.

[Lord Krungharr]

I'll be doing chariot spam, as I pretty much just have those for now, and am not wanting to spend tons more money.  So I'll git gud or die trying.

[Rors]

In terms of marks and fluff mentioned earlier, giving a unit a mark is game wise, a set of rules, you can make your units all 'undivided' and give them whatever marks you want, the marks don't change the narrative just the rules. Just be clear with your opponent what the rules are.

I agree that for his points Archaons output is low relative to his cost, but I disagree that this makes him a bad choice. He will still easily remove a unit a turn unless it's a really dedicated anvil, no battleshock immune is a hidden combat buff for him too and the claws went from d6 damage to 5. His khorne head can also break coherency.

Mark him nurgle and get him stuck into the enemy ASAP. He immediately forces your opponent to either trying to deal with him, which will likely involve them trading down, or ignoring him and letting him go ham on their units.

I would also say that he can be an incredibly hard to lock down unit if your opponent wants to feed him chaff because even with the FAQ, he can still teleport out of combat then use steed for a 3d6 charge.

I don't personally like running models that are such huge investments but I'm confident we'll see one for two lists doing well in tournaments that have included him.

[Wraith]

I was comparing my old barbarian meme list with what I can do now. I used to get the marauder horse for one command point each. Now I get most stuff back at half strength for a heroic action. The foot marauder are out. I noticed that the Spire Tyrants have battleshock immunity within 3" of the enemy. Well, that is where one most likely wants battleshock immunity! One of my regular opponents field Nighthaunt, so no inspired presence around the ghosts. I used to get undivided battleshock immunity. I am now thinking that those Spire Tyrants will be the solution to the ghosts this time around.

 

Darkoath Ravagers 1000pt 2nd Ed

Warqueen* - 90pt
Chieftain* - 85pt
Thedra* - 150pt

Godsworn Hunt* - 0pt
Marauder* (20) - 180pt
Marauder* (20) - 180pt
Chariot* - 100pt
Untamed Beast* - 70pt
Bush Turkeys - 85pt

Endless Spell: Emerald Lifeswarm
Battalion: Battle Regiment*

91 wounds
2 drops

 

Darkoath Ravagers 985pt 3rd Ed

Warqueen* - 100pt
Chieftain* - 95pt
Thedra* - 160pt

Godsworn Hunt* - 0pt
Maruader Horse* - javelin - 105pt
Maruader Horse* - javelin - 105pt
Untamed Beast* - 90pt
Untamed Beast* - 90pt

Darkoath Savages** - 100pt
Spire Tyrants** - 80pt

Endless Spell: Emerald Lifeswarm
Battalion: Battle Regiment*
       Bounty Hunters**

85 wounds
3 drops

[Malakithe]

14 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Just going to point out that Khorne marked Splintered Fang outdamage Knights on the charge in 4+ armor saves right now. Vince Venturella did the math on his show last night. I don't recall if it was adjusted for points or not, but if it wasn't they did over double(since SF min buy is less than half). And they are even more efficient in ravagers because you get them back in both you and your opponents turn.

The Darkoaths should also do pretty well in damage with fights-last assuming SF get nerfed.

Im not seeing how thats possible

[Archion89]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im not seeing how thats possible

Idolator Lord command trait lets you change cultist marks to that of your general.

[Malakithe]

19 minutes ago, Archion89 said:

Idolator Lord command trait lets you change cultist marks to that of your general.

I meant them being on par dmg wise with Knights but thats good to know too

[Boar]

29 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I meant them being on par dmg wise with Knights but thats good to know too

With no buffs they have very similar damage, unit to unit.

edit: assuming knights charge

Edited November 18, 2022 by Boar

[SpiritofHokuto]

57 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I meant them being on par dmg wise with Knights but thats good to know too

The thing to remember is you're going to be comparing 5 Knights to 20 SF for points parity. And 20 SF are capable of getting everyone in melee range as 50% are on 25mm bases. With no buffs other than Idolator Lord giving them Mark of Khorne and them charging, they're averaging 14 MW and a further 10 unsaved wounds vs a 4+ save. Even against a 2+ save that's averaging out to 13 unsaved damage overall.

Now obviously this doesn't take into account ward saves, positioning, potential casualties etc. But it's pretty crazy that a 200 point unit has that much offensive output. And sure SF are not what you'd call durable, but say 3 units only sets you back 600 points and fulfills your battleline requirements (although StD isn't hurting for that).

Edited November 18, 2022 by SpiritofHokuto

[readercolin]

I recommend running the stats on them yourself - splintered fang are straight nuts.

With no bonuses, and undivided mark, splintered fang do 14 damage vs no save, and 9.78 to a 4+, and 6.81 to a 2+.  Note, this is a single squad of 10 splintered fang, costing you 100 points.  Idolator Lord giving them the mark of Khorne, and charging buff this up to 18.67 damage vs no save, 12.83 to a 4+, and 8.94 to a 2+.  Again, this is a single squad of 10, that you spent 100 points on.

Lets compare this to their competition.  The closest thing at the same points as them is Darkoath Savagers (which by the way can never get the khorne mark, they are always undivided).  The darkoath guys dish out an average of 10.5 damage vs no save, 7 to a 4+, and 4.67 to a 2+.  Sure, you can pump that up with an all out attack, or with the sorcerer lord's spell, but even the +1 to hit and +1 to wound only bumps it to 5.57 vs a 2+, though it does bump it to 9.72 vs a 4+.  Again, this is a single squad of 10 dudes and assuming that all 10 get to attack.

Now, lets compare these guys to the supposed "Hammer" units in StD - Chaos Knights and Chosen.

Chaos Knights without any bonuses beyond charging are dishing out 13.17 damage vs no save, 10.14 vs a 4+, and 5.75 vs a 2+.  Giving them the mark of Khorne, you can buff them up with +1 attack on the charge, and now you are at 17.75 damage vs no save, 13.54 vs a 4+, and 7.63 vs a 2+.  Now, if we give them +1 to hit and +1 to wound (sorcerer lord, or all out attack + khorne banner), we can bump this up to 30 damage vs no save, 22.78 vs a 4+, and 12.78 vs a 2+.  All for 230 points.

Finally, Chosen.  With no buffs (or say, mark of nurgle), a block of 5 chosen are dishing out 16.89 damage vs no save, 12.15 vs a 4+, and 7.41 vs a 2+.  +1 attack (mark of khorne, or slaanesh banner and charging for both), and those chosen jump up to 22.17 vs no save, 15.94 vs a 4+, and 9.72 vs a 2+.  Finally, bumping them up with +1/+1 and the +1 attack, and they are dishing out 32.67 vs no save, 22.94 vs a 4+, and 13.22 vs a 2+.  All for 240 points.

So what do all these numbers tell us?  Point for Point, splintered fang are the strongest hammer in StD.  Without spending CP or spells on buffs (ex. playing vs Lumineth that got off total eclipse and then said "NO" to all your spells), 100 points invested in Splintered Fang is going to dish out more damage than 230 points invested in chaos knights (and are less reliant on the charge), and those 100 points are also nearly as good as chosen at 240 points.  They somewhat compensate for this in the fact that they only have a 6+ save instead of a 3+, and are slower, but they can also be returned via a heroic action in ravagers.  I do think that the extra durability and mobility of Chaos Knights means that they still have a place (especially in Knights of the Empty Throne lists), but I also think that Splintered fang are in line for a solid nerf, and I can potentially see them being bumped up all the way to 150 points per 10.

[Sinfullyvannila]

I forgot about getting their snakes back. So in the same manner as 1E pink horrors, in Ravagers they are actually pretty durable.

Just out of curiosity, the knights would get their charge bonus on the fight in death because the only qualifier is they made a charge earlier, right?

Edited November 18, 2022 by Sinfullyvannila

[Lord Krungharr]

Sounds like one would want Knights for the 1st wave of attack then follow it with a wave of Splintered Fangs.  But let's not forget about Unleash ******!  That could do a big whallop to the Fangs with their terrible saves (one reason I like Gyrocopters with my Cities armies )

Still, I think I'll have to get those Melusai bodies, and I can get some of the Splintered Fangs boxes, and they'll look even cooler with snake bodies (the ones that have legs currently that is).

[Sinfullyvannila]

23 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Sounds like one would want Knights for the 1st wave of attack then follow it with a wave of Splintered Fangs.  But let's not forget about Unleash ******!  That could do a big whallop to the Fangs with their terrible saves (one reason I like Gyrocopters with my Cities armies )

Still, I think I'll have to get those Melusai bodies, and I can get some of the Splintered Fangs boxes, and they'll look even cooler with snake bodies (the ones that have legs currently that is).

Kinights are definitely still great regardless, its just that Splintered Fang are bent AF from jump street and especially with Archaon and Ravagers or Idolators.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Sinfullyvannila

[Wraith]

3 hours ago, readercolin said:

... but I also think that Splintered fang are in line for a solid nerf, and I can potentially see them being bumped up all the way to 150 points per 10.

I would expect so. There seems to be something seriously wrong with that warscroll. I have been ignoring them, as I expect it to be corrected very soon. Even so, they are still incredible value at 150pt. They need attacks to go down to 1 and cost up to 150pt. Then they would be about right.

 

However, if I am wrong and they don't get a serious nerf, then all those people out there with now obsolete foot marauders might want to paint their shields green, add some bases of snakes and away you go!

[Rors]

Fang are definitely too cost efficient right now, they'll trade well with almost anything without much thought being needed for position, especially in Ravagers. Once khorne is updated that'll fix the truly problematic combos using them though.

They are however very weak to getting shot. Even modest shooting will lift them.

I think the mortal wound spam is powerful but what really pushes the into being a problem is wounding on 2s. They should be 4s and 4s, then your pretty much reliant on MWs only. Right now they do a ton of wounds and force a bunch of saves.

[Bayul]

Did we talk about Endless Spells yet? Might Eightfold Doom-Sigil be worth it (in a Cabalists army at least)? For combat and to score the Grand Strategy Masters of Dark Ritual?  

[Holy_Diver]

On 11/18/2022 at 6:22 PM, readercolin said:

I recommend running the stats on them yourself - splintered fang are straight nuts.

With no bonuses, and undivided mark, splintered fang do 14 damage vs no save, and 9.78 to a 4+, and 6.81 to a 2+.  Note, this is a single squad of 10 splintered fang, costing you 100 points.  Idolator Lord giving them the mark of Khorne, and charging buff this up to 18.67 damage vs no save, 12.83 to a 4+, and 8.94 to a 2+.  Again, this is a single squad of 10, that you spent 100 points on.

Lets compare this to their competition.  The closest thing at the same points as them is Darkoath Savagers (which by the way can never get the khorne mark, they are always undivided).  The darkoath guys dish out an average of 10.5 damage vs no save, 7 to a 4+, and 4.67 to a 2+.  Sure, you can pump that up with an all out attack, or with the sorcerer lord's spell, but even the +1 to hit and +1 to wound only bumps it to 5.57 vs a 2+, though it does bump it to 9.72 vs a 4+.  Again, this is a single squad of 10 dudes and assuming that all 10 get to attack.

Now, lets compare these guys to the supposed "Hammer" units in StD - Chaos Knights and Chosen.

Chaos Knights without any bonuses beyond charging are dishing out 13.17 damage vs no save, 10.14 vs a 4+, and 5.75 vs a 2+.  Giving them the mark of Khorne, you can buff them up with +1 attack on the charge, and now you are at 17.75 damage vs no save, 13.54 vs a 4+, and 7.63 vs a 2+.  Now, if we give them +1 to hit and +1 to wound (sorcerer lord, or all out attack + khorne banner), we can bump this up to 30 damage vs no save, 22.78 vs a 4+, and 12.78 vs a 2+.  All for 230 points.

Finally, Chosen.  With no buffs (or say, mark of nurgle), a block of 5 chosen are dishing out 16.89 damage vs no save, 12.15 vs a 4+, and 7.41 vs a 2+.  +1 attack (mark of khorne, or slaanesh banner and charging for both), and those chosen jump up to 22.17 vs no save, 15.94 vs a 4+, and 9.72 vs a 2+.  Finally, bumping them up with +1/+1 and the +1 attack, and they are dishing out 32.67 vs no save, 22.94 vs a 4+, and 13.22 vs a 2+.  All for 240 points.

So what do all these numbers tell us?  Point for Point, splintered fang are the strongest hammer in StD.  Without spending CP or spells on buffs (ex. playing vs Lumineth that got off total eclipse and then said "NO" to all your spells), 100 points invested in Splintered Fang is going to dish out more damage than 230 points invested in chaos knights (and are less reliant on the charge), and those 100 points are also nearly as good as chosen at 240 points.  They somewhat compensate for this in the fact that they only have a 6+ save instead of a 3+, and are slower, but they can also be returned via a heroic action in ravagers.  I do think that the extra durability and mobility of Chaos Knights means that they still have a place (especially in Knights of the Empty Throne lists), but I also think that Splintered fang are in line for a solid nerf, and I can potentially see them being bumped up all the way to 150 points per 10.

Excellent review of the outputs, but I would like to raise a reflection on the best DPS unit of the tome, which is not so obvious to find.
Speaking competitively, the current meta shows us increased weapon rend and damage, but... also a game built on zoning and completing as many battle tactics as possible.
For this reason I believe that the optimal choice is a unit capable of developing a sustained, non-explosive, DPS: the most striking example is 20 splintered vs 10 chosen, where they shine in charge to switch off later, while the seconds each turn they remain in melee (even without double pile in) produce noteworthy output.

note: yesterday for example 20 Khorne splinterds didn't exterminate 6 Spiterider Lancers (without all out defense). Event that made me lose the game.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[Bayul]

Do you think a Lord-Exorcist could be a good basis for a chunky Cabalists Chaos Lord if I remove the SCE elements? I plan to put him on Ahriman's disc aswell.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Bayul

[Grimrock]

3 hours ago, Bayul said:

Do you think a Lord-Exorcist could be a good basis for a chunky Cabalists Chaos Lord if I remove the SCE elements? I plan to put him on Ahriman's disc aswell.

Looks like a great idea for a conversion. If you're going to put him on a disk I think you'd be best running him as a gaunt summoner or a chaos lord on daemonic mount, otherwise it might get a little confusing on the table. 

[Bayul]

57 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Looks like a great idea for a conversion. If you're going to put him on a disk I think you'd be best running him as a gaunt summoner or a chaos lord on daemonic mount, otherwise it might get a little confusing on the table. 

It will be magnetitzed anywhy. I'll prepare an additional base for the acutal foot version.

[Hannibal]

Hi everybody,

 

don´t own the battletome right now. Can anybody confirm the loss of MONSTER keyword on the Formoroid Crusher Warscroll?

That would be a hit in my face.

 

Thanks