Male and female representation in GW models

[JPjr]

43 minutes ago, Overread said:

For example you can easily argue that Daughters of Khaine overly sexualises women because they are all super skimpy lithe elf women dancing around. Do you force DoK to also adopt female models of multiple different displays of femininity or do you instead say. "ok that's the skimpy elf army; now here's a heavy set "sisters of battle" style army somewhere else in the AoS lineup. Perhaps with their own unique story and background.

it's about options. expanding what's available, mainstreaming it.

the problem with DoK isn't, necessarily, that they're overtly sexualised. it's just when they're the representative 'all female' army and that's what you're stuck with.

thing is, and this is very pertinent in regards to DoK, it's a stick I often see used to beat people that want more diversity and representation in these things, a straw(Wo)man as you were to rail against and complain that we're all just prudes, killjoys and anti-sex league members who want to end all fun and hate good times sexy fun.

The truth is that most people just want more options. and the problem is when the only female faction, or the majority of female sculpts, are greatly sexualised and there's not that choice.

If there was a wide range of female models (and they're doing better and better) across most, doesn't have to be all, the factions then DoK are there for those that like that aesthetic and for those that maybe want something more armoured they'll have that too, and for women that love the idea of Duardin or the like and want to see themselves there they have that option too.

It's not about taking things away from people, it's giving people better choices.

Most of the women creatives I follow who are at the coal face of demanding representation and getting grief for it also happen to draw, paint or often write incredibly sexualised depictions of women, just on their terms or as part of a wide spectrum of body shapes, ages, etc etc etc.

Most of the women I know are as thirsty as men and I know several who love the idea of DoK but others who deal with this ****** all day every day and just want to roll some dice and put themselves in the puffy pantaloons and feathered hat of a medieval Ripley and not feel like they ONLY exist to be judged on their sex appeal.

And again on a purely selfish level it means we get better stuff to play with.

 GW's modellers are doing some incredible things at the moment and coming up with some brilliant new ideas, making them stop and think ok we've been making variations of these Dwarves for 40 years now, what actually would a female Duardin chieftain look like will inspire brand new things that we didn't know we wanted.

Same with fiction, lore etc. I want more PoC, women, minorities of all sorts involved not just because it's the right thing but because I've been reading and immersed in fantasy universes created by people that look like me all my life. I want fresh new perspectives, I want to be challenged by new ideas and made to look again at ideas that have been around for ages.

I realised that despite my beliefs my reading has always been pretty narrow so this year I've read Chinese Science Fiction, Iraqi science fiction,  fantasy stories written by women of colour, horror stories by people with disabilities. And I've found new perspectives in all of them, found myself looking anew at things I'd take for granted.

Take possibly the best book I've read this year, 'Circe' by Madeleine Miller. A retelling of the myths of Circe and Odysseus, with the focus on Circe rather than her as a bit part player in a man's tale. Astonishing story, one of those books I read in a day and then went and bought 5 copies to give to people to make them read it and still think about again and again.

There's a huge world of different perspectives out there, myths and legends from other cultures that I want to see explored not just because it's good or right (though it is) but because it enriches my life as well.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by JPjr

[Veles]

50 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

Your response makes no sense. If you think GW has an agenda with the representation of their models and you oppose that agenda, well, by default, you have an agenda of your own. Otherwise, you wouldn't draw attention to your opposition. Lack of representation is unwelcoming, full-stop. There have been many psychology studies that bear that out. 

Objectively speaking, there is a need for female dwarfs as they've existed in the lore from the get-go.

The problem is not GW making female models. The problem is “certain agendas” being pushed by minority in order to feel welcome…  

46 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Also I am a proud social justice warrior.  Look at that term.

Social: A group of people

Justice:  Fairness and right behavior

Warrior:  A fighter

What is wrong with wanting my hobby to be something my daughters can engage in a way that makes them feel as equal to the men that play it.  I know arguing online solves very little, but it is hard to hear people get so bent out of shape because might have to share.

Good for you! My daughter doesn’t need plastic representation of her gender to feel equal. She paints her models better than most adults and so far, outplayed most of males in tabletop games and sports…

[Veles]

33 minutes ago, Zappgrot said:

This is true. Companies don't care about social change they care about money, But if we care  they will change to sell to our tastes. Gw might not care but if we all do they will still make more female models. 

And this is exactly a problem. The company doesn’t really care, majority of the gamers doesn’t really care, yet the small but very vocal group of people wants everybody to believe the opposite…

 

[Overread]

Just now, Whitefang said:

Presenting pictures of tournaments held in the UK or US

”Hey there are only white males!”

You can’t be serious.

Why not? It's a valid argument that right now in those regions white males are the dominant population. That has NOTHING to do with the gender or colour of models on the table, but everything to do with societies. I would argue that, in the UK, many of the barriers are gone which are force barriers, but there are still lots of social and casual ones; even down to the fact that some people feel isolated within a social group unless there are others that they identify with already as part of the group. This could be anything from colour to race to gender to even if you've a disability or not.

It's also in no way unique to Wargames - conservation suffers from the same outreach problem, even in regions where there are far larger populations of different ethnic groups the bulk of conservation volunteers can be predominantly white (esp of the older generations, who do often form a larger part of those volunteer teams). 

Breaking down those barriers but also finding ways to be actively recruiting and inclusive can be very hard; especially when there are often no actual barriers in place to break down as such. Just the appeal and getting people to entertain the idea of attending and taking part. Trying something new that perhaps hasn't been presented to them as an option in life ora consideration 

 

 

@JPjr agreed more options is always good! Of course GW is going to always have a practical limitation on those options which is why there's such a massive 3rd party market out there which is always growing. Conversions and 3rd party parts are always going to let players go further with conversions than the "lore" of the game and GW will generally stick to the lore of their game. So there are loads of options for all - even in the past you could do all female armies it was just harder. 

[Still-young]

3 minutes ago, Veles said:

And this is exactly a problem. The company doesn’t really care, majority of the gamers doesn’t really care, yet the small but very vocal group of people wants everybody to believe the opposite…

 

Really don’t get this argument. The majority of gamers don’t care is precisely right. But some do care about being represented, so why not represent them? No one else cares, as you just said, and it barely scratches the representation of white men anyway. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Still-young

[MitGas]

15 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

 

Male elves would be nice too I guess, but why start making them now after 30 years i guess.

Wow, what a burn!  

Nice points about the SCE, I learned something new.

I think the whole female discussion is really only down to execution. If they do it well, nobody will complain unless it's really not fitting in any way or shape. No concrete example springs to mind but let's say an army gets some high-born hero class that is only available to the first-born sons or something. Personally I identify more with male models as I'm a guy but it would only help the hobby as a whole if more women got involved. 

They should be a bit braver and play with gender when Slaaneshi Mortals come around. That's like the perfect place to add all that stuff in nowadays, where where on social media a loud few are so confused as to what they are 

One thing that baffles me is how few are fans of Sister's of Battle faces - I saw a few attractive ones in there (often with huge scars, that's even cooler IMO) and at this scale they do have to exagerrate certain features. Most noses e.g. are too small on minis. A nose can be almost as wide as mouth, especially when screaming. And a broad-nosed black Sororita gets flak now because her nose a bit too wide. Yeah, probably they think it's racist, I disagree on that. Or would it be racist if they gave some white guy a bump on his nose, as we have them most often? And I think everyone knows that there are black people with tiny noses, whites without bumps and so on and on. No wonder everyone in Hollywood gets a nosejob.

 

[Lightbox]

9 minutes ago, JPjr said:

There's a huge world of different perspectives out there, myths and legends from other cultures that I want to see explored not because it's good or right but because it enriches my life as well.

 

This is a really nice point and one that I've never really considered but definitely bears worth mentioning. There's so much to learn from other cultures and viewpoints that it's honestly a shame that you don't always get as much cultural sharing or exposure as you should. Definitely a pity.

 

Speaking of culture though one thing I have liked with AoS has been the different cultural motifs they've put into some armies, it's made for really nice and varied aesthetics. 

[Still-young]

2 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I think the whole female discussion is really only down to execution. If they do it well, nobody will complain unless it's really not fitting in any way or shape. No concrete example springs to mind but let's say an army gets some high-born hero class that is only available to the first-born sons or something. Personally I identify more with male models as I'm a guy but it would only help the hobby as a whole if more women got involved. 

 

This isn’t true unfortunately. I don’t really know how they could have done it better with Stormcast for instance (releasing female models alongside males where it makes sense to etc) and there’s still complaints about ‘forced diversity’ and such, whatever that even means (it’s all forced, at the end of the day, it’s made up). 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Still-young

[Lightbox]

5 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Wow, what a burn!  

Nice points about the SCE, I learned something new.

I think the whole female discussion is really only down to execution. If they do it well, nobody will complain unless it's really not fitting in any way or shape. No concrete example springs to mind but let's say an army gets some high-born hero class that is only available to the first-born sons or something. Personally I identify more with male models as I'm a guy but it would only help the hobby as a whole if more women got involved. 

They should be a bit braver and play with gender when Slaaneshi Mortals come around. That's like the perfect place to add all that stuff in nowadays, where where on social media a loud few are so confused as to what they are 

One thing that baffles me is how few are fans of Sister's of Battle faces - I saw a few attractive ones in there (often with huge scars, that's even cooler IMO) and at this scale they do have to exagerrate certain features. Most noses e.g. are too small on minis. A nose can be almost as wide as mouth, especially when screaming. And a broad-nosed black Sororita gets flak now because her nose a bit too wide. Yeah, probably they think it's racist, I disagree on that. Or would it be racist if they gave some white guy a bump on his nose, as we have them most often? And I think everyone knows that there are black people with tiny noses, whites without bumps and so on and on. No wonder everyone in Hollywood gets a nosejob.

 

I really like some of the new faces myself, they've made the hair look better. I also love the canoness one with the hood, what you can see of the face and hair look well sculpted and the overall look really comes together. I'm less of a fan of the other faces but I'm not gonna berate them, they're options I may or may not use. It's not like I walk outside and every woman looks the same anyway, variation in faces for male and female models is always welcome as why can't my heroes (or even rank and file) look different from one another?

 

Edit: Also i may be misunderstanding (apologies if I am) but as someone who legitimately has confusion regarding their gender identity I'd much rather people not make comments about 'loud few on social media' as it makes it seem like poking fun at people who do have confusion regarding that aspect of their identity. Thanks.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Lightbox

[dekay]

I really don't get one thing. Without a hint of irony, i really don't understand it.

Being represented completely aside. Like, out of the picture. It's worth noting there's a sizable group of white males who'd like more female models because they like well designed female fantasy models. And currently they can't get as many of them as they'd like. And it's not even a little bit deeper for them.

Really. Like, most of the people who bought out new sisters of battle. It wasn't sudden influx of women who were waiting to be represented - many people who bough them did that because they thought models were neat.

Some are willing to sacrifice this potential in the name of not yeilding before SJW's... and, really does ANYONE win if that happens? If more female models show up, everyone is free NOT to buy them. Those who want to be represented WILL buy them. So will those who want more plastic women on their table for no deeper reasons. General result:  Group 1: 0 female models wanted/0 owned. Group 2: 1 wanted/ 1 owned. Group 3: 1 wanted / 1 owned.

On the other hand, if the defenders of gender purity win, and we get no female models: Those who don't wan't them won't have them (the exact same result as 'not buying them' if they are made), and other two groups don't get them despite wanting them.  Results: Group 1: 0 wanted / 0 owned. Group 2: 1 wanted, 0 owned. Group 3: 1 wanted / 0 owned.

Congratulations, you just made others' life a bit worse while not making yours in any way better.

15 minutes ago, Veles said:

The problem is not GW making female models. The problem is “certain agendas” being pushed by minority in order to feel welcome…  

But... GW not making female models is a problem! My personal problem at least. And I'd guess there are others. I'd like to have more female models because I think that'd be neat. Anyone pushing political agendas on me for that clearly does thet to force their own, because if they didn't that'd be a discussion about worldbuilding and aestethics only.

Edited November 21, 2019 by dekay

[shinros]

As a black guy the last thing on my mind when I started was whether the the models were painted white, black, yellow etc.

If one day GW makes all dwarfs yellow, brown etc all it will do ia annoy the hell out of me. Hell the females in my store play nurgle, beastmen and seraphon. 

You can have representatuon where it fits organically but to force it will just aggravate me.

Edited November 21, 2019 by shinros

[zilberfrid]

9 minutes ago, Still-young said:

This isn’t true unfortunately. I don’t really know how they could have done it better with Stormcast for instance (releasing female models alongside males where it makes sense to etc) and there’s still complaints about ‘forced diversity’ and such, whatever that even means (it’s all forced, at the end of the day, it’s made up). 

Yeah, as much as I dislike Stormcast, they have a very subtle inclusion of females (except for the heels). In the rumour thread, there was a bit of a riot because people riled at a female Knight Incantor being included. I just thought it was sad it was an exclusive.

I think about 1 in 10 sculpts is female in the whole of Stormcast. This still riles up people, and I can't see why this happens.

There was a dearth of female Stormcast in the first release, but after that, they existed, all new names (so no rewriting of lore to be inclusive). This coincides with other good choices from GW, but I am quite sure the designs were made before the management change, so I don't credit this to that.

[Lightbox]

1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

Yeah, as much as I dislike Stormcast, they have a very subtle inclusion of females (except for the heels). In the rumour thread, there was a bit of a riot because people riled at a female Knight Incantor being included. I just thought it was sad it was an exclusive.

I think about 1 in 10 sculpts is female in the whole of Stormcast. This still riles up people, and I can't see why this happens.

There was a dearth of female Stormcast in the first release, but after that, they existed, all new names (so no rewriting of lore to be inclusive). This coincides with other good choices from GW, but I am quite sure the designs were made before the management change, so I don't credit this to that.

That's really weird people got mad because the first knight incantor (from the starter set) was already female?

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

That's really weird people got mad because the first knight incantor (from the starter set) was already female?

Oh, I got an old dude with the starter set, but you are entirely correct. Replacing the original Knight Incantor with a male one is pure masculist behaviour, and there is also Stormsire as a Knight Incantor, which is also a man, this new Female KI only makes it equal.

[Walrustaco]

16 minutes ago, shinros said:

As a black guy the last thing on my mind when I started was whether the the models were painted white, black, yellow etc.

If one day GW makes all dwarfs yellow, brown etc all it will do ia annoy the hell out of me. Hell the females in my store play nurgle, beastmen and seraphon. 

You can have representatuon where it fits organically but to force it will just aggravate me.

Those first 2 paragraphs contradict eachother. First you say you dont care what colour the models skin is, second you say if GW make dwarves any colour other than white you would be annoyed? Hmm.

Why is it that dwarves all have to be white to you? You can argue either that they're so similar to humans that they should also have various skin colours, or you could say that because they're not human that they shouldn't have to stick to human skin tones at all.

It's amazing to see how much it means to some people when they see themselves represented in media. The only thing that feels forced to me is the people who are so resistant to the idea of whiteness being decentralised in their favourite piece of media. White isn't the default.

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Televiper11 said:

I find it interesting too that the Excelsior Warpriest was a squatted model for Cities.

That one is interesting. Was the Excelsior ever available separately? He's on his own sprue so he could be, but same applies to the two aelf heroes. There are some interesting choices for cities of Sigmar. I wouldn't be surprised if we got a big expansion for devoted of Sigmar at some point down the line, either living flagellants as the only option cities can take or removing and rehoming them.

[shinros]

4 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Those first 2 paragraphs contradict eachother. First you say you dont care what colour the models skin is, second you say if GW make dwarves any colour other than white you would be annoyed? Hmm.

Why is it that dwarves all have to be white to you? You can argue either that they're so similar to humans that they should also have various skin colours, or you could say that because they're not human that they shouldn't have to stick to human skin tones at all.

It's amazing to see how much it means to some people when they see themselves represented in media. The only thing that feels forced to me is the people who are so resistant to the idea of whiteness being decentralised in their favourite piece of media. White isn't the default.

No doesnt, let me be more clear I don't want them changing factions or warping their lore to fit a damn quota. What if they changed all of your ogres into asians and say no other type exist thats what I mean.

So far I think GW are handling reprensation in a good way so far. Representation wasn't what got me into warhammer.

Edited November 21, 2019 by shinros

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 minutes ago, shinros said:

No doesnt, let me be more clear I don't want them changing factions or warping their lore to fit a damn quota. What if they changed all of your ogres into asians and say no other type exist thats what I mean.

So far I think GW are handling reprensation in a good way so far.

I know you are using it as an farcical example, but ogre kingdoms do/did have something of a mongolian aesthetic going on...

[Aeryenn]

47 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Presenting pictures of tournaments held in the UK or US

”Hey there are only white males!”

 

You can’t be serious.

You are free to post a picture of AoS Tournaments held in Botswana.

Sadly I don't have the data but can we assume that at least 90% of GW customers are from the West? I'm not asking for much I suppose... Otherwise I'm sure we would see a lot pictures at w-c.com from Africa or Asia, right?

And what better representation of multi culti than GB or US...

Edited November 21, 2019 by Aryann

[shinros]

3 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I know you are using it as an farcical example, but ogre kingdoms do/did have something of a mongolian aesthetic going on...

Yeah but they aren't painted like them. Ok let me change it, if they were all black and that was the canon from now on that wouldn't bother you? It would bother me.

Edit:Luckly GW aren't like that since they said they want to avoid doing stuff like that.

Edited November 21, 2019 by shinros

[JPjr]

12 minutes ago, shinros said:

As a black guy the last thing on my mind when I started was whether the the models were painted white, black, yellow etc.

and that's totally fine, you don't owe anyone anything or have to think or feel in a certain way. whatever got/gets you into the game and works for you then great.

just as I can imagine it must be ****** enraging for some people who feel like they're excluded in some way because of their race, gender, sexuality or whatever I can equally imagine it must be ****** to be expected to follow some party line, everyone's life experiences are different and we should respect that.

but on a macro rather micro level we see again and again and again that representation matters, it brings joy, it can make people feel welcome in spaces that up till now they might not have.

being able to give my niece a comic featuring someone that looks like her (Ms Marvel) makes her feel more confident to explore that world.

getting my wife to pay any attention to AoS was made a hell of a lot easier when the core book had a female stormcast on it, when she sees videos with people like Becca Scott on and when she can collect models that she might see herself in (which actually happens to be DoK).

20 minutes ago, shinros said:

If one day GW makes all dwarfs yellow, brown etc all it will do ia annoy the hell out of me. Hell the females in my store play nurgle, beastmen and seraphon. 

I mean sure but seeing as after 40 years they haven't managed one I wouldn't get too worried about that.

but also on a general level why not? (not having a 100% range of that type but just them existing)

trying to think what it was but I'm pretty sure I read a story this week in the latest Inferno anthology that featured a black Aelf, it wasn't a big deal just a mention, so I need to check it, but why shouldn't there be races within races.

and again on a selfish POV I'd love to see an incredible army based on something like the Songhai Empire or the Japanese Shogunate but I'd want to see them done  properly and with respect. 

24 minutes ago, shinros said:

You can have representatuon where it fits organically but to force it will just aggravate me.

the problem is, as we've seen, no matter how well done or how minimal it is for some people it will always be 'OMG SJWs FORCING THIS DOWN MY THROAT'

[Overread]

Just now, shinros said:

Yeah but they aren't painted like them. Ok let me change it, if they were all black and that was the canon from now on that wouldn't bother you? It would bother me.

I get what you mean. 

It's that GW establishes a lore and story behind the race. What you're saying is essentially you've no problem if GAMERS make their won lore up or their own models etc...; but that GW shouldn't suddenly change their established lore to fit into modern social conformity.

 

Which is fair, when you watch this argument go a lot of people are only arguing that they don't want the STORY about their models and the game world changing to reflect modern social ideals. Remembering that many of these races are eating people or doing genocide or any one of a dozen other fantastically evil or glorious or wonderful or horrible things. 

at the same time some factions - like stormcast- already have it built into them to have more representation of elements that might have been left out purely because it was just never done. 

[Veles]

14 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Those first 2 paragraphs contradict eachother. First you say you dont care what colour the models skin is, second you say if GW make dwarves any colour other than white you would be annoyed? Hmm.

Why is it that dwarves all have to be white to you? You can argue either that they're so similar to humans that they should also have various skin colours, or you could say that because they're not human that they shouldn't have to stick to human skin tones at all.

It's amazing to see how much it means to some people when they see themselves represented in media. The only thing that feels forced to me is the people who are so resistant to the idea of whiteness being decentralised in their favourite piece of media. White isn't the default.

MOD EDIT

“Traditional” dwarfs were supposed to be living in caves/underground. Nature teaches us that with less sun there is less pigmentation in the skin. Thus in “traditional” culture dwarfs were always depicted white/pale/albino...  

[shinros]

Just now, JPjr said:

and that's totally fine, you don't owe anyone anything or have to think or feel in a certain way. whatever got/gets you into the game and works for you then great.

just as I can imagine it must be ****** enraging for some people who feel like they're excluded in some way because of their race, gender, sexuality or whatever I can equally imagine it must be ****** to be expected to follow some party line, everyone's life experiences are different and we should respect that.

but on a macro rather micro level we see again and again and again that representation matters, it brings joy, it can make people feel welcome in spaces that up till now they might not have.

being able to give my niece a comic featuring someone that looks like her (Ms Marvel) makes her feel more confident to explore that world.

getting my wife to pay any attention to AoS was made a hell of a lot easier when the core book had a female stormcast on it, when she sees videos with people like Becca Scott on and when she can collect models that she might see herself in (which actually happens to be DoK).

I mean sure but seeing as after 40 years they haven't managed one I wouldn't get too worried about that.

but also on a general level why not? (not having a 100% range of that type but just them existing)

trying to think what it was but I'm pretty sure I read a story this week in the latest Inferno anthology that featured a black Aelf, it wasn't a big deal just a mention, so I need to check it, but why shouldn't there be races within races.

and again on a selfish POV I'd love to see an incredible army based on something like the Songhai Empire or the Japanese Shogunate but I'd want to see them done  properly and with respect. 

the problem is, as we've seen, no matter how well done or how minimal it is for some people it will always be 'OMG SJWs FORCING THIS DOWN MY THROAT'

Well that's their opinion, it's not an outlandish one to have when movies and IP's have been destroyed because it.

I don't entirely agree with them but i've seen it happen. They are worried about the slippery slope. I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it until GW starts going that route.

[Overread]

NOTE I've refrained from stepping in as a mod since I've been part of this discussion but now that more than one person is resorting to namecalling I'm putting a lock on this. This will allow other mods to step in and, if it is felt needed, clean up some of the insults casually flying around. It is my hope that the thread can be unlocked and that civil discussion can continue.

 

I want to remind people that even in passionate discussions we expect people to remain polite toward each other.