JackStreicher Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, Tonhel said: n the meanwhile I have mananged to buy ZERO new TOW miniatures, because they are all out of stock since hour 1 of their release. To me it seems they could easly halved the production of the FEC armyset and produced more stock for TOW. I know this a very simplistic approach to the problem, but to me it seems to much FEC stock and not enough TOW stock. The FeC Box works the way it should imo. About TOW Models: Agreed, it's a mess (they still haven't adressed the problems, did they?) I received my TOW Models a week ago through a german webstore who apparently received a small restock. The rest I bought off ebay (super annoying trying to get a decent deal on ebay these days, but it worked for the Duke on Pegasus and the Bone Dragon) My issue with most that has been claimed about the success of AoS readsy like sh*t-talk. Sure I am less hyped about AoS than I used to be (mostly due to the mishandlung of GHBs and loving the customisation options of TOW) but I highly doubt it's doing as badly as is being claimed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Tonhel said: It's difficult. GW cleary has no clue about demand. We still have the limited FEC armyset buyable everywhere, while the same kits are now available seperate for a higher price. In the meanwhile I have mananged to buy ZERO new TOW miniatures, because they are all out of stock since hour 1 of their release. To me it seems they could easly halved the production of the FEC armyset and produced more stock for TOW. I know this a very simplistic approach to the problem, but to me it seems to much FEC stock and not enough TOW stock. I don't think this particular case is a GW problem in terms of not managing the demand. AoS would always have more stock than TOW, IMO. A main game would always have more production slots than a specialist one. Also, the FEC army won't be printed anymore while the TOW stuff would, so makes sense that the first gets a higher stock as the TOW boxes would get more production slots later on. EDIT. I forgot to mention that their stock and delivery is totally ****** up, so probably they couldn't build more TOW material even if they wanted to. Edited February 6 by Ejecutor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: The FeC Box works the way it should imo. About TOW Models: Agreed, it's a mess (they still haven't adressed the problems, did they?) I received my TOW Models a week ago through a german webstore who apparently received a small restock. The rest I bought off ebay (super annoying trying to get a decent deal on ebay these days, but it worked for the Duke on Pegasus and the Bone Dragon) My issue with most that has been claimed about the success of AoS readsy like sh*t-talk. Sure I am less hyped about AoS than I used to be (mostly due to the mishandlung of GHBs and loving the customisation options of TOW) but I highly doubt it's doing as badly as is being claimed I agree. It's a thin line to walk on. It can't be the intend to sh*t-talk AoS, but since TOW is released I can't get the thought out of my head what they could do with TOW if it only had the resources that AoS is receiving. Since I have the armybooks, It's very difficult to keep interested in AoS, which I need to do because a couple of my friends never played Warhammer, only started with AoS, have invested a lot of money in AoS, but damn I have so much more fun with making armylists for WoC and the Empire than I have with StD and CoS. I really dislike my Chaos Lord in StD, while in WoC he is so more terrifying. It's not comparable. Lol, and I still need to play my first TOW game. I am a fluff / casual player. The story and immersion is very important for me. I.e I am now painting a wizard (Still very wip). He will be an outcast wizard for Bretonnian Exiles and a wizard for the Empire. A level 2. He is called Renker von Merken. He has a sword. In my mind, a wizard has a magical sword. Even if it's useless on him. He will always have a "sword of striking". It costs 15 points, bad investment for him, but I love it that I can give it to him. It fits the picture for me. That mini will always be Renker for me, maybe he will be one day a level 3 or 4 . In AoS, this is impossible. There is no "character" in the AoS heroes. 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 14 minutes ago, Tonhel said: It's difficult. GW cleary has no clue about demand. We still have the limited FEC armyset buyable everywhere, while the same kits are now available seperate for a higher price. In the meanwhile I have mananged to buy ZERO new TOW miniatures, because they are all out of stock since hour 1 of their release. To me it seems they could easly halved the production of the FEC armyset and produced more stock for TOW. I know this a very simplistic approach to the problem, but to me it seems to much FEC stock and not enough TOW stock. Unfortunately GW production doesn't turn on a dime. GW kits have a lead time of several months. All the FeC stuff including the second wave that is on pre-order now will have been manufactured last year. With the way they're set up, they don't have the ability to manufacture less of the full release if the launch box doesn't sell well. They would need to put 6 months between launch box and full release to be able to do that. If GW put in a big order for more old world stuff the day the first release sold out, we'd see that product in the summer at the earliest. Also the problems GW is having right now is not the limited to the old world. A full third of the AoS range is currently listed as out of stock on the GW website. There's definitely some serious supply chain issues going on with GW right now. If you want evidence of this look at the slaves to Darkness leak. We saw that in the spring and the box set didn't come out until October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerekKruger Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I kinda wish GW ran a made to order model on new releases. Preorder them and then get them guaranteed six months down the line. After that, for non-FOMO kits, have basic stock levels defined by initial preorder interest and go from there. But I guess there'd be a high incidence of buyers regret and people cancelling preorders if they did it that way, and a big part of their model is FOMOing people into buying stuff they'll never use, so I don't think that'll happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, JackStreicher said: My issue with most that has been claimed about the success of AoS readsy like sh*t-talk. Sure I am less hyped about AoS than I used to be (mostly due to the mishandlung of GHBs and loving the customisation options of TOW) but I highly doubt it's doing as badly as is being claimed I previously heard store owners say that there is about a 60/40 ratio when it comes to 40k/AoS sales. Which, depending how you want to spin it is either "40k and AoS sales are nearly 50/50" or "40k is nearly twice as popular as AoS". 1 hour ago, Tonhel said: I am a fluff / casual player. The story and immersion is very important for me. I.e I am now painting a wizard (Still very wip). He will be an outcast wizard for Bretonnian Exiles and a wizard for the Empire. A level 2. He is called Renker von Merken. He has a sword. In my mind, a wizard has a magical sword. Even if it's useless on him. He will always have a "sword of striking". It costs 15 points, bad investment for him, but I love it that I can give it to him. It fits the picture for me. That mini will always be Renker for me, maybe he will be one day a level 3 or 4 . In AoS, this is impossible. There is no "character" in the AoS heroes. You can literally do this exact thing in AoS, lol: However, you are hitting on a point that I have recently been thinking about. For certain kinds of games like RPGs and tabletop games, especially fantasy games, the ability for players to have fun by themselves during downtime, when they are not actively playing with other people, is very important. For many people, it's probably this is probably the main source of enjoyment, as actually playing the game is often quite hard to set up. I think TOW maximizes this source of enjoyment by having list building rules that are a lot more in-depth, especially with its magic item system. This has, to an extent, been "lost" in AoS, in the effort to lower barrier to entry. It seems to me these two aspects of these games, potential for downtime fun and ease of entry, are kind of at odds with each other. So I think it is great that GW now has two systems that each serve one of these needs, and I hope that AoS keeps refining its focus by committing to lowering barriers to entry further. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I previously heard store owners say that there is about a 60/40 ratio when it comes to 40k/AoS sales. Which, depending how you want to spin it is either "40k and AoS sales are nearly 50/50" or "40k is nearly twice as popular as AoS". You can literally do this exact thing in AoS, lol: However, you are hitting on a point that I have recently been thinking about. For certain kinds of games like RPGs and tabletop games, especially fantasy games, the ability for players to have fun by themselves during downtime, when they are not actively playing with other people, is very important. For many people, it's probably this is probably the main source of enjoyment, as actually playing the game is often quite hard to set up. I think TOW maximizes this source of enjoyment by having list building rules that are a lot more in-depth, especially with its magic item system. This has, to an extent, been "lost" in AoS, in the effort to lower barrier to entry. It seems to me these two aspects of these games, potential for downtime fun and ease of entry, are kind of at odds with each other. So I think it is great that GW now has two systems that each serve one of these needs, and I hope that AoS keeps refining its focus by committing to lowering barriers to entry further. Lol, yeah, but is an extremely simplified version of customization and to be fair that warscroll is quite unique compared with the other AoS warscrolls. So it's more an anomality. It's not that you can add so much more to the CoS battlemage compared with the variety of options TOW Empire wizards have from spell lores, to wizard levels, to magic items to mount options. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tonhel said: I am a fluff / casual player. The story and immersion is very important for me. I.e I am now painting a wizard (Still very wip). He will be an outcast wizard for Bretonnian Exiles and a wizard for the Empire. A level 2. He is called Renker von Merken. He has a sword. In my mind, a wizard has a magical sword. Even if it's useless on him. He will always have a "sword of striking". It costs 15 points, bad investment for him, but I love it that I can give it to him. It fits the picture for me. That mini will always be Renker for me, maybe he will be one day a level 3 or 4 Same here! Some of my Characters: Necromancer Scum (Title: The useless) managed to lose control of the first spell in EVERY Game back in 8th and was sucked into the Realm of Chaos (everytime out of the 6 times!). In the lore we had his fellow Necromancer Jens perform a Ritual to pull him from the realm of chaos every time. Ephilia von Keysz (Isabella Model) - Mistress of Kreysz, Carstein working for Mannfred Adunag - The Terrogheist my Ghoulking rides Dieter Weschler - The Imperial Infantry General of my Brother. and many more TOW lends itself way more to have memorable battles and characters. I was thinking at some point if we coul TOW-ify AoS in some way - would be a hell lot of work though! I currently can't get the direction AoS is taking out of my head (since I don't like it). - It feels like an arcade game with no bigger meaning (Pew Pew, nice next game). This makes me sad tbh. Edited February 6 by JackStreicher 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flippy Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 49 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: You can literally do this exact thing in AoS, lol: You can do this one specific thing with the Battlemage and it's only because of the multiple models attached to this warscroll, all of them transferred from WHFB. The regular AoS situation (at least for small heroes) is that you only have a single, non-customizable model and the corresponding warscroll with extremely limited customisation options. Even if you believe that the result is lower barrier to entry (I don't think that's the case), this also means that you lose the potential to field two similar heroes, unless you customize the model by yourself (and that is an actual entry barrier). How am I supposed to field two Endrinmasters if there is only one model available? Does GW really expect me to buy copies of same hero model? How is then AoS supposed to keep refining its focus by committing to lowering barriers to entry further? Remove any unit customization altogether? You are of course right about the importance of fun during downtime element, as most of the hobby time is spent either on models (building, painting), fluff, list-building or activities such as TGA discussions - and AoS is no different from WHFB in this regard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 minute ago, Flippy said: You can do this one specific thing with the Battlemage and it's only because of the multiple models attached to this warscroll, all of them transferred from WHFB. Not disagreeing in general, I just though it was funny that in this particular instance, you can very much still do the "impossible" thing (give a battlemage a magic sword). 4 minutes ago, Flippy said: The regular AoS situation (at least for small heroes) is that you only have a single, non-customizable model and the corresponding warscroll with extremely limited customisation options. Even if you believe that the result is lower barrier to entry (I don't think that's the case), this also means that you lose the potential to field two similar heroes, unless you customize the model by yourself (and that is an actual entry barrier). How am I supposed to field two Endrinmasters if there is only one model available? Does GW really expect me to buy copies of same hero model? Yeah probably. However, that is a barrier on the modeling/hobbying side. I was only thinking about the rules side for my post. I am definitely in favour of GW releasing more variant models. Honestly, who could be against that? I don't know how you can seriously doubt that being confronted with a huge list of options to choose from is a barrier to new players, though. New players already find the limited customization AoS offers daunting in a lot of cases. At least that is my experience. 7 minutes ago, Flippy said: How is then AoS supposed to keep refining its focus by committing to lowering barriers to entry further? Remove any unit customization altogether? You are of course right about the importance of fun during downtime element, as most of the hobby time is spent either on models (building, painting), fluff, list-building or activities such as TGA discussions - and AoS is no different from WHFB in this regard. Remove or rework grand strats, battle tactics and core battalions (all huge barriers to easy list building, IMO), improve game flow (less picking stuff from tables), cut down on trap options and improve sign posting for rules, off the top of my head. Commit to keeping model count generally low and get games back to under three hours for people who play casually (like, once a month). But also: don't introduce stuff like points for enhancements and don't go hard on simulationism like TOW does. This stuff can exist in AoS, but needs to live in the narrative/open play sections. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 AoS already has some cutomizable options that could be used for a lot of variety: Marks of Chaos. I'm not saying that all armies need to have marks of chaos, but maybe use the a more basic mechanic? Fyreslayers with Runes, Kharadron Overlords with diferent ammo, Kruleboyz with diferent venoms, etc... Of course, points for artefacts, traits and this stuff would be enough, but I just wanted to say that, appart from subfactions, we already have a mechanic that "modifies" some units or characters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 17 hours ago, Bosskelot said: Still baffles the mind that the two least popular factions in WHFB are consistently sold-out. They've been bad at estimating demand for their products for 10 years now, but with the growth of their market, supply chain issues and lack of production capacity it is rapidly hitting a breaking point if they can't even keep stuff like this in stock. Meanwhile you've got the limited edition FEC box still on sale everywhere (element games has got a heaving shelf full of it that hasn't moved) while the actual full FEC release is up for preorder. We've had 2-3 years of limited run Marine boxes not coming anywhere close to selling out meanwhile most KT boxes have had laughably tiny runs and gone out of sale globally within 5 minutes of preorders opening. I don't think anything more needs to be said about Dominion either. They just do not understand their product, who is buying it, and why. and yet because they have a virtual monopoly on the TT wargaming sphere they still make money hand over fist. Hail the free market. What exactly are you looking for? The amount of available stock seems to be different in every region. In the US both starter sets and most of the plastics are in stock. In the UK the tomb kings box is in stock along with about half the resin kits for both factions. I wonder if GW could meet most of the demand with a bit of stock redistribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flippy Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Remove or rework grand strats, battle tactics and core battalions (all huge barriers to easy list building, IMO), improve game flow (less picking stuff from tables), cut down on trap options and improve sign posting for rules, off the top of my head. Commit to keeping model count generally low and get games back to under three hours for people who play casually (like, once a month). 100% agree. 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: But also: don't introduce stuff like points for enhancements and don't go hard on simulationism like TOW does. This stuff can exist in AoS, but needs to live in the narrative/open play sections. Disagree. Using points for enhancements is simple and intuitive, points are already main "currency" to pay for everything you use in a game. The whole "enhancements" idea, tied to specific army composition through battalions that in turn affect deployment order and priority was a design mistake. To be very clear - I'm not into the ToW simulationism level in AoS, stuff like various armours, shields, weapons is unnecessary. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Chikout said: What exactly are you looking for? The amount of available stock seems to be different in every region. In the US both starter sets and most of the plastics are in stock. In the UK the tomb kings box is in stock along with about half the resin kits for both factions. I wonder if GW could meet most of the demand with a bit of stock redistribution. Not really true. I just checked America (pictures) and the only difference is that for new mini's the Paladin/duke on pegasus is available and the armybox. All the other is out of stock. Lol, good try to change the succes to stock distribution problems 😄 And most importanly the rulebook is out of stock there too. And for Europe even more is out of stock. Edited February 6 by Tonhel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, Tonhel said: Not really true. I just checked America (pictures) and the only difference is that for new mini's the Paladin/duke on pegasus is available and the armybox. All the other is out of stock. Lol, good try to change the succes to stock distribution problems 😄 And most importanly the rulebook is out of stock there too. And for Europe even more is out of stock. They have the big Brett box, that's enough for me. GW USA, send it here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) To me it seems very clear GW vastly underestimated demand for TOW and is imo (Edit: "for certain AoS factions") overestimating demand (for AoS). It will take a while to correct. I fear that low stock will also be the case with the upcoming O&G release. Edited February 6 by Tonhel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 3 minutes ago, Tonhel said: To me it seems very clear GW vastly underestimated demand for TOW and is imo overestimating demand for AoS. It will take a while to correct. I fear that low stock will also be the case with the upcoming O&G release. Imo all the upcoming big boxes would have even lower stock, as they won't have such a sweet deal as the two initial big boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 21 minutes ago, Tonhel said: Not really true. I just checked America (pictures) and the only difference is that for new mini's the Paladin/duke on pegasus is available and the armybox. All the other is out of stock. Lol, good try to change the succes to stock distribution problems 😄 And most importanly the rulebook is out of stock there too. And for Europe even more is out of stock. That's an oddly combative post. I'm not trying to prove anything expect potentially help people get the models they want. I've would never for one second doubt that the launch of the old world has been a success. Looking at the global stock situation it's seems that on the Bretonnian side of things, the only products that are sold out absolutely everywhere are the new resins and the grail reliquary. Maybe the tga old world community should organise something to help each other out. This is a pretty global community we've got here. I will say one thing about AoS though. Have you looked at the stock situation? A full third of the AoS product range is currently out of stock. This is a general GW problem and not an old world specific problem. Legions Imperialis has it worst of all. There's only one product currently available from the UK online store and it's the reaver titan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogregut Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Absolutely loving painting this army, didn't realise how much I've missed painting rank and flank. Still need to add some grass to the bases when I decide what colour. And finally I've been able to order a loonshrine, got a email it's back in stock today. 7 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Chikout said: That's an oddly combative post. I'm not trying to prove anything expect potentially help people get the models they want. I've would never for one second doubt that the launch of the old world has been a success. Looking at the global stock situation it's seems that on the Bretonnian side of things, the only products that are sold out absolutely everywhere are the new resins and the grail reliquary. Maybe the tga old world community should organise something to help each other out. This is a pretty global community we've got here. I will say one thing about AoS though. Have you looked at the stock situation? A full third of the AoS product range is currently out of stock. This is a general GW problem and not an old world specific problem. Legions Imperialis has it worst of all. There's only one product currently available from the UK online store and it's the reaver titan. I apologize if the post was to combative. I should have added a wink or phrased it differently. Yes, the stock is bad for every GW game, but for TOW it was simply impossible to order one of the new mini's. I came out the queu after waiting more than a hour and every new mini + the rulebook was sold out. That's an absurd situation. The rulebook was n't a limited version as with the latest HH book. Edited February 6 by Tonhel 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 7 minutes ago, Tonhel said: I apologize if the post was to combative. I should have added a wink or phrased it differently. Yes, the stock is bad for every GW game, but for TOW it was simply impossible to order one of the new mini's. I came out the queu after waiting more than a hour and every new mini + the rulebook was sold out. That's an absurd situation. The rulebook was n't a limited version as with the latest HH book. No problem. That’s definitely a frustrating experience. It’s always hard to know what’s going on in these situations. Did GW print a pathetically small amount, did almost a decade of pent up demand cause demand to outstrip a pretty high level of supply or was it a little of both? Are you still unable to get what you’re looking for? Is it the new resins that you wanted? They really do seem to be out of stock absolutely everywhere． In theory it should be easier to do another run of them than more plastics or books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) It’s good to remember that they have quite vast supply chain of stores that they have to basically stock first to keep them happy and alive. This is important for the continuation as this hobby is hard to get excited without getting hands on experience on the models. There is likely a lot of ToW sitting on shelves of various shops, ready for people to buy, while at the same time the most popular online shops are struggling with demand. So remember to support you FLGS (if you have one, mine is 150 km away). A good example is that I ordered my books from a Finnish store and gor them on Monday after the release. My friend ordered directly from GW and haven’t still received them because the order is lacking a single liche priest… Edited February 6 by Jamopower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 19 minutes ago, Tonhel said: I came out the queu after waiting more than a hour and every new mini + the rulebook was sold out. That's an absurd situation. I had the same experience with Black Library books and the whole experience was horrible. Let's hope that GW understanda their target and makes a moves with their productio line. Btw, that shoudn't mean in a reduction of AoS armies or HH new boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, Chikout said: No problem. That’s definitely a frustrating experience. It’s always hard to know what’s going on in these situations. Did GW print a pathetically small amount, did almost a decade of pent up demand cause demand to outstrip a pretty high level of supply or was it a little of both? Are you still unable to get what you’re looking for? Is it the new resins that you wanted? They really do seem to be out of stock absolutely everywhere． In theory it should be easier to do another run of them than more plastics or books. It probably really is a combination of factors. Old World is in the fairly unique position of both being an established IP with a lot of invested players, while also technically being a completely new game for a lot of people. I can imagine how that might make initial demand hard to gauge. There was an interview with the owner of an independent store on Guerilla Miniature Games a few days ago. He said that on his end the launch of Old World was smaller than that of Horus Heresy 2nd ed, but that a lot of the sales actually went through GW stores directly. Which suggests that people buying into Old World are not established players who frequent independent stores. A large percentage of the sales coming from new customers might not have been something GW expected, given how they marketed TOW as a game for established players. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: He said that on his end the launch of Old World was smaller than that of Horus Heresy 2nd ed, but that a lot of the sales actually went through GW stores directly. might also be a reaction to past experiences, where FLGS got a very limited amount of product and ordering from GW was the only way to get what you wanted 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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