AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

But will using the Sylvaneth be more useful than just using Stormcast or other Cities units?  Actually not even sure the new tome came out yet.  Seems like it's taking forever.  

Would love for my old metal Treelords and Durthu to be useful!

at the moment, based on leaks and info published by WarCom, my feeling is that a lot of the power of Sylvaneth will be locked behind their allegiance abilities, like all 3.0 BT bar Stromcasts. So I am not sure they will be a great pick in Living City but maybe some crazy combo will still come out. I so want Drycha to be great

[readercolin]

I do agree that a good bit of the power of Sylvaneth will likely come from allegiance abilities.  However, I would expect that there are potentially a few units that could see play in the living city even without those allegiance abilities.  For example:

Right now, Cities has no access to 2 cast wizards without giving a single cast wizard the arcane tome.  However, sylvaneth would let us bring Alarielle (a unique 3 cast wizard), the Lady of Vines (a unique 2 cast wizard) and the warsong revenant (a non-unique 2 cast wizard).  All of these wizards are also noticeably more durable than the wizards that Cities otherwise has access to.

The new spite rider lancers look to be noticably faster and hit a good bit harder than anything else Cities has access to, short of fulminators.  If the Living City command ability does get the expected nerf, fulminators are going to be less guaranteed pain delivery methods, and having 14/16" move lancers (or whatever they end up being) able to come in and smash things gives the army a melee alpha threat that it is otherwise lacking.

Tree-Revenants, if they keep their teleport ability, give the cities a way to have on board teleporting rather than only relying on deep striking.  For more trick focused lists, this can be fairly relevant as a way to guarantee some battle tactics and threaten objectives.

For everything else, there is likely something else in either the cities or stormcast that can fulfil a similar role.  It is also very much moving the city away from their current trick which is dragons + fulminators... but that isn't necessarily a downside.  Overall, I am not personally expecting too much out of sylvaneth units in my living city lists, but I will definitely experiment with some, even just in "for fun" lists.

[Lord Krungharr]

Spite Rider Lancers eh?  I'll have to go search for what those are.  Didn't want to expand my Stormcast too much anyways so it's good to hear there will be some new Sylvaneths to experiment with.  Not having to use Arcane Tome means I could give a decent hero Spear of the Hunt!

[Trickflo]

The new archers from sylvanteth might have some use for us since most of our shooting is fairly immobile and they seem to patch up that weakness.

[readercolin]

I mean, they are mobile, but are they really something that Cities needs?

Units that Cities can bring that fill a very similar role include Scourgerunner Chariots, Tempestors, Vanguard-Palladors, Gunhaulers (as allies), Allopexes (as allies) and Heartrenders (as allies).

Comparing damage, a unit of gossamids will deal an average of 7.33 damage before saves, and 4.28 to a 2+ save.  For a similar number of points, you can field 3 scourgerunner chariots, which are going to start at 8 damage before saves and drop to 3.67 to a 2+ save.  Tempestors are slightly slower, and only deal 5.17 damage before saves and 3.39 to a 2, but are also noticably tankier and can actually do something in melee.  Gunhaulers will dish out only 3.78 damage before saves and 1.26 to a 2+, but compensate for that some with significantly greater mobility, though you can't really get the points to line up between the two units.  Allopexes are similar to tempestors in that they can do something in melee as well, but they only do 3.56 damage before saves and 1.19 to a 2+ with just their ranged attacks.  Finally, Heartrenders individually are the worst, but you can bring 10 with some points to spare and they will dish out 5.33 damage before saves, 1.78 to a 2+, and they can move after shooting without needing the living city command to do so.

As far as tankyness, with a 5+ save and 10 wounds, gossamids can't take a hit.  They are slightly more survivable when getting charged as they can retreat after unleashing hell, but the Living City doesn't give you woods that they can hide in and they remain vulnerable to other shooting/spells.  Overall, I think that you would be better served by bringing 3 scourgerunner chariots for only 15 more points if you are wanting a mobile shooting threat.  Unless of course you are looking at price... in which case by the $60 gossamids and don't drop the $150 that GW would want for 3 chariots (or proxy something... anything...).

[Thugmullet]

I'm very keen on these Gossimid Archers.

Not for damage but for there move blocking on a 2+.

Not as reliable as the Wind foxes, but an ability just not available to Cities anywhere else.

I think there might be some play in them.

[Lord Krungharr]

Had 3 games yesterday with my Living City v2 w Gotrek: Steam Tank Commander (general/ Ironoak Artisan/ Amulet of Destiny), Warden King (Arcane Tome/Lifesurge), Runelord (Heal), LordArcanumon Gryph (Ironoak Skin), 2x10 Ironbreakers (cinderblast/pistol sgt), 1x10 Longbeards (greataxes), 1x2 Stormdrakes (warblades), 1x2 Gyrocopters, Gotrek

1st and last games were losses vs Stormcast, pretty tight exciting games!  Judicators proved to be excellent archers, rivaling Sentinels IMHO, and the first game had my Drakes and Gotrek taking 2 full turns to bring down the Stardrake.  Last game that guy had a block of 15 Judicators, pair of Drakes, AND Bastian Carthalos who I must say really is undercosted for what he can do....I am thinking he'd be a good substitute for Gotrek actually.  

2nd game I had a narrow win against Har Kuron with Morathi, tons of Darkshards and Sorceresses.  The Runelord and LordArcanum did a great job of keeping the magic at bay (as Vitriolic Spray with Spell Portal= OUCH).  Little Morathi and Ironbreakers fought for like 5 or 6 rounds of combat, and finally got the last wound on her with an Arcane Bolt from LordArcanum after the Stormdrakes fell.  The Steam Tank's finest achievement of the day was picking off 2 wounds from the general Sorcereress from 27" away with the Long Rifle, allowing LordArcanum to again Arcane Bolt her off for my only win in the last 8 games I've played.

-The Strike then Melt away ability proved very useful in all the games (though I forgot every game to do my Stormdrake hero phase move).  The healing a wound every turn really helped too, and Ironoak Skin is my favorite spell.  If you use any Duardin infantry, take a Runelord for sure too, so good and useful!

-Steam Tank proved a very durable general, but still just kinda sucks.  I misremembered the grand strategies when submitting my list picking Sever the Head instead of doing Vendetta.  That cost me the first game for sure.  Those 3 points have cost the game too many times.  Make sure you pick the right grand strategy for your army!

-I like Gotrek, and when he works he WORKS, but not being able to outflank sucks, and he's so expensive.  Bastion Carthalos is 185 points less, plain coalition ally, can do his lightning attack every turn, issue a free command ability anywhere every turn, still pretty killy in combat, same saves and wounds as Gotrek (but not reducing damage like Gotrek), but Bastion heals all wounds if he kills a model in combat, and he can do the City heal too.  Definitely worth trying, plus the model is super cool and would look even better with leaves and flowers on the base

[readercolin]

https://woehammer.com/2022/06/15/top-three-aos-lists-from-the-san-diego-open/

So this came out... and someone went 5-0 with the following:

2x Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage
Celestant-Prime
3x 10 Longbeards
2x Celestial Hurricanum
2 Fulminators
5 Heartrenders
2x Battle Regiment

...

What?

I mean, you have a decent amount of mortal wound output, and the hurricanums all have a 4+ save.  But how the heck did this army win anything?

The hurricanums will deal an average of 20 mortal wounds (until they get damaged), the fulminators are good, but there are only 2 of them, and celestant prime + chain lightning is decent as a way to put out some AoE mortal wounds.  But it seriously went through an Ogor list, a Nurgle list, another living cities list, a FEC list, and then finally a stormcast list.  I can see it beating stormcast as the mortals should just go right through, but how the heck did this thing beat nurgle?  And how did another living city list not just take this right off the board?  I'm so confused.

[NauticalSoup]

Holy hell that's a lot of carriages 

[Lord Krungharr]

I would probably drop the Heartrenders and Fulminators, using the spare points to net a pair of Stormdrakes.  Heartrenders don't seem that impressive at all despite their deepstrike and native strike/move (which I didn't realize at first).  Maybe I'll magnetize my Steam Tanks to be Hurricanums and give this a try too.  Just need a Celestant Prime, who doesn't seem too shabby, worth taking over Bastion Carthalos?

Edited June 15, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[NauticalSoup]

Celestant Prime is a lot better as a coalition ally. The biggest element is he actually has his teleport written directly onto his warscroll so he doesn't become a footslogger in a Cities list.

[Popisdead]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:44 AM, readercolin said:

  But how the heck did this army win anything?

Did anyone cover it on a podcast or blog post (goonhammer) regarding matches?

I'm confused, how do you get the Khineri Heartrenders in there?

 

 

Army Faction: Cities of Sigmar
– Army Type: Living City
– Grand Strategy: Mighty Beachhead
– Triumph: Inspired

LEADERS
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)*
– Spells: Lifesurge
Celestant-Prime (325)**
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)**
– General
– Command Traits: Master of Magic
– Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
– Spells: Ironoak Skin

BATTLELINE
Longbeards (105)*
– Ancestral Weapon and Gromril Shield
Longbeards (105)*
– Ancestral Weapon and Gromril Shield
Longbeards (105)**
– Ancestral Weapon and Gromril Shield

BEHEMOTH
Celestial Hurricanum (230)*
Celestial Hurricanum (230)**

OTHER
Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)**
Khinerai Heartrenders (95)**

CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment
 

[NauticalSoup]

What part are you confused about?

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Did anyone cover it on a podcast or blog post (goonhammer) regarding matches?

I'm confused, how do you get the Khineri Heartrenders in there?

The only coverage that I saw was the link I posted, which posted the list, its record, and who it faced, and a halfhearted attempt to explain it that basically amounts to "well... this happened" (not that I blame them... because I certainly can't explain what this list is doing).

As for the heartrenders, Cities can take DoK as allies, so they are just in there as normal allies.

[Jaskier]

I'd assume it just comes down to being able to snipe whatever needs killing with an obscene amount of mortal wounds. An 18" reach means the Hurricanums can shoot from relative safety, and the threat of a Celestant Prime is always going to force your opponent into a tough position of how to move. It has a lot of mobility and drop options to easily get battle tactics too. It doesn't look like much but I can definitely see how a good player would go 5-0 with it. 

As for how it beat another Living City list, that's easy. Whoever has priority (especially going into round three) is likely to win...and by priority, I mean forcing your opponent to bring their reserves out first. It's Warhammer's version of cat and mouse, and it's really important to understand when you're playing into other alpha strike builds. The other thing to consider is your typical Living City list relies on Stormcast, and Stormcast melt to mortal wounds.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Jaskier

[Jaskier]

Some minor points changes for Cities, nothing major that I noticed. As usual, a lot of stuff that needs love got nothing, and units that were fine got tweaked. Dreadspears getting a drop to match Freeguild Guard is just funny, but then Darkshards stayed the same while Crossbowmen got a drop. It's bizarre. My tournament list dropped a neat 20 points, so no complaints here.

[Popisdead]

4 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Some minor points changes for Cities, nothing major that I noticed. As usual, a lot of stuff that needs love got nothing,

Wanderers not getting a drop shows they are fully neglected in the tournament scene to the point GW doesn't even see them. sad...

but Sylvaneth book could provide some fun things.  I keep thinking about Tree Revs and Galatian Veterans (spelling).  I'm not certain about BL so this may not work...

[NauticalSoup]

The points changes were extremely light in general.

So light I almost wonder why they bothered at all.

[Lord Krungharr]

Well some ppl called it correctly, Strike n Melt means melt AWAY, not melt closer.  Lame.  And we can't even use it to escape combat.  Guess Skaven might be more apt to do that.

[Thugmullet]

3 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Well some ppl called it correctly, Strike n Melt means melt AWAY, not melt closer.  Lame.  And we can't even use it to escape combat.  Guess Skaven might be more apt to do that.

 

I do wonder if a new infantry based meta came along that had lots of screens, if this ability would be so effective and the problem would kind of fix itself. But that prob won't happen

 

So yeah, I'm salty 😂.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Thugmullet

[Jaskier]

It was expected, but as we've discussed earlier, lore-wise the new version of the rule is more fitting. We still have very strong shooting options to make use of it, and being able to ambush melee hammers is still useful just to protect them a bit. I'll probably swap to Hammerhal for running Cities + Stormcast stuff (i.e. Stormdrakes) now, as it was already a question of mobility/guaranteeing threat versus huge combat buffs. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:00 PM, Popisdead said:

Did anyone cover it on a podcast or blog post (goonhammer) regarding matches?

I'm confused, how do you get the Khineri Heartrenders in there?

 

 

Army Faction: Cities of Sigmar
– Army Type: Living City
– Grand Strategy: Mighty Beachhead
– Triumph: Inspired

LEADERS
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)*
– Spells: Lifesurge
Celestant-Prime (325)**
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)**
– General
– Command Traits: Master of Magic
– Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
– Spells: Ironoak Skin

BATTLELINE
Longbeards (105)*
– Ancestral Weapon and Gromril Shield
Longbeards (105)*
– Ancestral Weapon and Gromril Shield
Longbeards (105)**
– Ancestral Weapon and Gromril Shield

BEHEMOTH
Celestial Hurricanum (230)*
Celestial Hurricanum (230)**

OTHER
Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)**
Khinerai Heartrenders (95)**

CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment
 

I find this list very interesting.  I have suspected for a while that buff wagon spam might be good, particularly Hurricanum spam, simply because of the amount of mortal wound damage it generates. I seriously believe the main reason we don't see this type of build often is that nobody wants to paint four Hurricanums.

[NauticalSoup]

Especially knowing anytime a build like this gets good, it gets the unit nerfed. 

[Myrdin]

Been out of the game for a while (half a year before of 2.0 ended) and have been gettin ready to get back into it lately.

So how are you guys feeling about CoS in the current climate? Have some things become better or worse ? From what I saw the shift to 3.0 and how units work and such has not been as catastrophic as for some other factions, though it did invalidate some battlescroll rules for units that relly on huge numbers for them to be active.
I`ve already checked the price changes and seems most of our stuff might`ve gotten more expensive, at least at first glance.

Looks like the CoS warmachines are still poop. Hoped those get massive drop in points considering how bad they are. I heard our infantry got hit hard since they depend on big numbers, but msu units like Pistolers and such got better. Not sure about if its true or not.

 

[NauticalSoup]

Some good some bad. There are a lot of stinkers in our army lists but we have some really solid allegiance traits. If you are willing to dip into stormcast coalition units you can actually create some pretty impressive lists right now, there are a few shells that are near the top of the meta.

If you play Cities for fluff and want to have a list that's all freeguild or dwarfs (like me) you're going to have a rougher time.

There are definitely worse armies. I can win more reliably with my fluffy dwarf force than with my bonezplitterz.