AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[Marcvs]

6 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

HOw we

How did the Sisters of the Thorn perform?  

Let's see:

game 1: grabbed an objective, forced the tzeentch player to target them with the big 6MW spell, still managed to score me Savage Spearhead by retreating from the Chaos Spawn

game 2: put ironoak skin on the irondrakes twice, which helped avoiding some boulders from the gargants. Ran across the border to get on an objective and help score the WD battle tactic (the one with standard bearers)

game 3: not much, screened an objective against two beasts of nurgle so that I could focus elsewhere

game 4: forced the opponent to shoot them as they could get where the vein of ghur appeared. still, the game was such a disaster for my forces, it didn't matter much.

game 5: screened a charge from lord of afflictions + pusgoyles. Unfortunately both units got their 9" charge and I didn't get a turn with the sisters. Still, they are very useful as a screen, if a bit expensive, for how much space they can take with their cavalry bases and being 5.

In general I was pretty happy, they added mobility to a rather static army (outside of fulminators but they cannot roam around) and where useful for battle tactics. I took them also to have a "hail mary" move to cast the bridge in case I lost the battlemage too soon, and still fit in the 1 drop battalion, but (luckily) I never had to try this.

[Jaskier]

While I won't be able to use it in my upcoming GT, I'm definitely going to give the new Incarnate a whirl alongside my Ironoak/Tome Frosty. It might fit better in other Cities (i.e. an aggressive Tempest Eye list) but it looks like it could be pretty scary with a melee-oriented Living City build to roam around murdering everything. 

[EntMan]

13 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

While I won't be able to use it in my upcoming GT, I'm definitely going to give the new Incarnate a whirl alongside my Ironoak/Tome Frosty. It might fit better in other Cities (i.e. an aggressive Tempest Eye list) but it looks like it could be pretty scary with a melee-oriented Living City build to roam around murdering everything. 

Am I right that although taking the Incarnate stops you from taking allies, you can still include coalition units? Ie. are allies and coalition different things? Or are coalition a particular type of ally?

 

[Jaskier]

Just now, EntMan said:

Am I right that although taking the Incarnate stops you from taking allies, you can still include coalition units? Ie. are allies and coalition different things? Or are coalition a particular type of ally?

 

Correct, Coalition units are seperate to allies. You wouldn't be able to run Gotrek with the Incarnate, but for Living City in particular the 1 in 4 Stormcast and Sylvaneth are still fair game. 

[Jaskier]

Warning; long write-up ahead!

Just had an exhausting but very fun weekend attending a two-day, five-game GT and am now awake enough to write about it. I finally got to put all my practice and theory-crafting with Living City to the test, having had not much actual games with the army as I'd wanted before-hand - this was very much a learning experience more than a serious attempt to "go for it" for me given how little I've gotten to play since 3.0 dropped. With that out of the way, here's the list I settled on; 

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix - General, Ironoak Artisan, Arcane Tome, Lifesurge
Sorceress - Lifesurge
3x10 Dreadspears
10 Irondrakes
4 Fulminators
4 Stormdrake Guard

I was a 3 drop; the two Stormcast units went in Hunters, everything else was in a Battle Regiment, and I was 10 points under for a cheeky Inspired Triumph. The general idea was simple; being able to reserve up to half the army ensured I never lost anything valuable before it had at least a turn to act, and being low drops allowed me to dictate the turn order in four out of five games. Something I'd always thought was that this army really, really does not want to be going first and my games definitely proved me right. My Stormdrakes, Fulminators and Irondrakes always went in ambush, with my flex pick for the fourth ambushing unit being either the Phoenix or Sorceress - usually the Sorceress, but I played a couple lists that could turn one alpha my Phoenix so I kept him off in those scenarios. I play the Living City command the way its written where you need a hero wholly within 18" to use it even if a unit can use it on itself, so having one of the heroes in ambush is a must. I took Beast Master as my Grand Strategy for very obvious reasons; good luck killing 4 Dragons and a Frostheart Phoenix (or so I thought!)

Game 1 v Stormcast - First Blood

This was a cool Hallowed Knights Stormkeep army; Gardus, Yndrasta, a High Priest (the re-rolling prayer rolls trait) Lord Relictor using Translocate, an Incantor, 6 Raptors with Thunderbolt Volley and a plethora of Battleline, some Aetherwings and two groups of Prosecutors. The step ladder deployment with no objectives in his territory was very unfortunate for his army with bonuses to holding objectives in his territory for the first two rounds (then all objectives from round three onwards.) I made him go first, putting the Phoenix off the board this time out of respect for the 6 Raptors - as Thunderbolt Volley and Translocate both happen in the hero phase, he could have potentially fired twice with the Raptors on the top of the round and quite capably removed the Phoenix before I even got a turn, so I elected not to risk that. The deployment, him respecting my ambush and his lists' natural desire to castle up around Gardus meant he only captured one objective with a unit of Prosecutors.

On my turn, my Dreadspear units moved up and secured two of the three objectives; a positional mistake cost me the middle objective and a Battle Tactic by allowing him to Redeploy to get more models on it than me. Not a great start! However, then came the ambush; there was a gap beside his castle where all my ambushers could arrive, the goal being to get into his Vanguard Raptors immediately. To do so, I had to kill two spaced screening units (he couldn't spread out any further because of the deployment map) - 5 Liberators and 3 Aetherwings, all in range of Gardus' 5++ aura. My 10 Irondrakes wiped the Aetherwings by a hair from a perfect roll. A combination of really hot rolling for my Fulminator and Stormdrake shooting also just barely wiped the Liberators, allowing the Fulminators to plow through the gap and straight into the Vanguard Raptors. My luck stayed high when their Unleash Hell did zero damage thanks to a shocking roll, and the Fulminators promptly wiped the Raptors before they'd ever shot. As if that wasn't enough, I won the priority roll and predictably took the double - and it got even worse when the Fulminators, priming to charge Gardus, shot him with their breaths to soften him but instead ended up dealing 6 mortal wounds to which my opponent promptly failed all 6 5++ rolls. That was essentially the game there, unfortunately. The Fulminators did get wiped immediately in a bit of karmic retribution! I had insane dice luck - and he had the opposite kind of luck for his - getting the exact rolls I needed for an absolutely perfect double turn. 

Major win. 

Game 2 v Tzeentch - Tectonic Interference

This one was tough. Hosts Duplicitous with a Lord of Change, Fateweaver, Magister, Herald on disk, the Blue Scribes, 10 Pinks, 2x10 Kairics and a bunch of Endless Spells including the Spellportal. Spells and particularly mortal wounds in droves, all coming from heroes protected from screens that you can't retreat from - with spells that can create Spawn out of your own dead models to immediately tarpit units. I had the Phoenix start on this time as I knew the 4+ ward would keep him trucking against the ridiculous spell damage. I had a tough choice of taking first or second given he would be able to cast enough spells to summon screens with fate points and spread out his castle deployment more if I let him go first, the flip side being that if I went first and he got the double turn I'd almost certainly get wiped off the board. I chose to take second; he got 10 Blue Horrors up and only took one objective. All my ambushers arrived on one side, and I chose to have my Fulminators be the ones to go straight in - I was being cagey with my Dragons as, despite their 4+ against spells, I had extremely few games under my belt with them and didn't want them to just get blown away immediately. I killed one Kairic unit with shooting and, thanks to Fateweaver's dice change rule, failed a 3" (I just needed to not roll any 1s, so of course I rolled a 1 and a 2!) charge into another Kairic unit with the Fulminators - which would have let me pile-in to Fateweaver and likely kill him. Not good. He then won priority. Double not good.

My Fulminators died, my Phoenix got tarpitted by the Pink Horrors on one of the objectives, he managed to summon two Spawn from two spells by killing Fulminator models - which then charged in and tarpitted my Irondrakes - and another 10 Blue Horrors with his fate points. His Fateweaver and Lord of Change were still nice and snug in the middle, safely protected by summoned Blues and Kairics. At that point, I was pretty confident the game was lost, especially as my Dragons weren't able to do too much on that turn other than wipe the Blues off the side objective while my Phoenix slowly started to whittle down the Horror horde. I lost the next two priority rolls but I stayed in it thanks to the 4+ ward on the Phoenix - he made something like 11 or 12 of those consecutively before finally failing one - and the 4+ ignore spell roll on the Dragons, who managed to get into Fateweaver and the Magister thanks to clearing the way with shooting and their 3" reach on the mount attacks, finishing both off by a hair and wiping out two other units in the one combat. His disk Herald summoned Screamers in my backfield to take the objective I'd just cleared the Blues off, but my Dragons had retaken the middle - and I was still scoring Battle Tactics. By the bottom of the fourth, I was within reach in points and all 4 Dragons and the Phoenix were still kicking - thanks to sniping his Changecaster (the Irondrakes killed both Spawn and subsequently cleared that stuff out) and Screamers while also mauling the Blue Scribes, all he had left was a Lord of Change and half of his original Pink Horror unit (they were down to Brimstones.) It came down to the last priority roll which I won; I burned my Dragons' hero phase move while staying out of 9" on my subsequent move to ensure I could do the shoot-move in the shooting phase, knowing that if I killed his Lord of Change he'd be unable to summon and would thus not be able to score any objective points off me - as his Horrors had no way to get to the middle objective (and they couldn't contest 5 monsters!) Unsurprisingly, the 4 Dragons ate the Lord of Change for breakfast, sealing the game - one both of us thought was a clear loss for me from turn 2! 

Major win. 

Game 3 v Legion of the First Prince - Feral Foray

I loved this army, as it's everything I'd want to do if I played the faction. Be'lakor, a scary Bloodthirster general with the 5++ bubble and re-roll saves, a Contorted Epitome doing D3 mortals on hit rolls of 5+ (with a 9 attack weapon!) Fateweaver, a Khorne Daemon Prince, some Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds and two Endless Spells (namely the Spellportal.) I deployed the Phoenix as the Sorceress was a free kill for Fateweaver and I knew he wouldn't be able to make any turn one charges. I made him go first; he didn't move up too much - all the monsters advanced into the middle with the Bloodletters - as due to the nature of the mission there wasn't much point advancing to the midfield; he was heading towards my Phoenix sitting in one corner. Unfortunately we later realized late into my turn that he'd forgotten his 3D6 summon ability, which would have been very important to help block my potential ambushes. On that note, I only brought the Irondrakes and Dragons (with the Sorceress) on to try and clear some of his Battleline on the flanks well away from his monsters and outside of the 18" halving charge roll bubble from the Khorne Prince - I was hoping to get his monster blob away from his side so I could safely take his backfield objectives, which ultimately is what ended up happening when he kept the priority - ultimately the mission favours taking the opponents objectives, so he made the right move in not going for my Dragons (he'd have struggled to reach them anyway.) Fateweaver split off from the blob to take my central backfield objective, burning it after killing the left and central units of Dreadspears but not being able to get anything in range to capture the left objective (he failed his 3D6 summon) while Be'lakor hung back and the Bloodthirster/Prince/Epitome surged towards my Phoenix and last unit of Dreadspears guarding the right objective. Suffice to say, even with using his Oracle dice change to get 4 mortal wounds on everything from the Bloodthirster, his power trio whiffed hard and I managed to keep the objective by the skin of my teeth, as I learned the Daemon Prince isn't actually a monster! 

My turn two is where I made a critical "ploy" by complete accident. It started with retreating my Phoenix and Dreadspears while maintaining control of that objective and me trying to bring my Fulminators on in my backfield to kill Fateweaver. Unfortunately, with my Phoenix in a corner holding an objective and my Sorceress on the opposite end of the board, I wouldn't have had any heroes wholly within 18" to use the shoot-move command ability - even without the Oracle dice-change, I wasn't going to count on a 9" charge to get into Fateweaver. Instead, I had the Fulminators appear behind his middle objective; concentrating all my power on his side. I took all three of his objectives thanks to the Irondrakes getting onto the other one they'd shot off earlier, but was out of range to burn any (you have to be within 1", and by accident again I was not.) Thanks to the now-active Dark Master ability, my Dragons did nothing except keep hold of the objective they'd taken earlier. He kept the priority on turn three again - a tough choice, losing out on the double-Dark Master but denying me a very powerful double turn regardless (Be'lakor would have certainly died otherwise.) Thanks to the Ghur rules, I removed the objective my Phoenix was contesting with his Bloodthirster and Epitome - essentially forcing him to commit to either killing my Phoenix for no objective reward or running away from a much quicker tarpit monster that would chase them. Tough choice. His Khorne Prince split off to assassinate my Sorceress, he summoned some Horrors to help Be'lakor and the Bloodletters contest the Fulminators, and Fateweaver took my left objective. His Bloodthirster and Epitome once again bounced off the Phoenix, and Be'lakor fluffed hard enough that my Fulminators wiped most of the Horrors and Bloodletters - but he still retook the objective. Ultimately, the Phoenix did finally go down but it was too late for his big monsters to do anything of note, while Fateweaver came back to try and help clear my active-again Dragons, Irondrakes and Fulminators off his objectives - his failed summon rolls and forgetting it on turn one cost him dearly, as he just couldn't quite do enough to contest me on them, meaning I pulled out an extremely tight win on points. That "ploy" I mentioned earlier with my Fulminators, where I accidentally scewed up by not being able to send them anywhere except his backfield (they didn't shoot-charge, they just took an uncontested objective) as well as not being in range to raid any of his objectives, also accidentally? Well it turns out that was all game-winning because two objectives disappeared on my side, and most of his power was concentrated on my side, meaning I was able to sneak the win. By accident. Woops. 

Major win.

Game 4 v Stormcast - Savage Gains

Another Gardus list, but this time as Scions with a translocating Relictor, a Tauralon, 10 Protectors (ew) with Unleash Thy Hatred (double ew) while maintaing the 6 Raptors (triple ew) with Thunderbolt Volley (quadruple ew.) My only consolation here was out-dropping him, and his army being very slow - he only deep-struck the Raptors, and only to ensure I couldn't alpha strike them; I kept my Phoenix off this time to ensure the Raptors couldn't just kill him before I got a turn. He scored two/four objectives, on my turn I played possum and didn't deploy anything from ambush, taking three/four objectives thanks to having bigger units, higher movement and less worries about having to protect from deep strike. On turn two he brought his Raptors down to clear my Dreadspears off the side objectives unsuccessfully thanks to poor rolls, while maintaining a strong castle. I continued to not deploy anything important - just the Irondrakes to start popping off shots at his Liberators - happily scoring more points than him again. Then came a key priority roll for turn three, which I won; I made him keep it, ensuring I wouldn't be enduring a Thunderbolt double-turn later on, and also letting me burn an objective - I burned the rightmost one as his Protectors had been heading that way. He translocated his Tauralon to take my home objective on turn three while getting a Liberator unit to the left objective, sending him into the lead. My Phoenix and remaining Dreadspears that had been contesting the now-burned objective moved over to retake my backfield objective without needing to charge - I was going to have to do the shoot-move with my Fulminators to retake the leftmost objective, whilst my Dragons appeared in my backfield with the hope of keeping them safe from his Protectors then maximise on their hero-phase move on the next turn to cross the board. As it turned out, my Dragons decided to deal with the Tauralon then and there by rolling a 10 on their charge, predictably killing him after a successful Roar denied his All Out Defense. 

I lost the round four priority roll, unfortunately. He burned his Thunderbolt and managed to kill two Dragons after both shooting rounds, while the Protectors translocated and made a key 9" re-rolled charge to annihilate the Fulminators. My play remained the same, though, thanks to his back objective now only being protected by his Relictor, Gardus and the Raptors; my two remaining Dragons surged forward with the Phoenix and took his objective, killing both heroes but failing to get close enough to the Raptors, giving me the lead again. I also made sure my remaining Dreadspears and Sorceress in my backfield were back far enough that it was impossible for any of his models to make a charge to them or get close enough to contest my back objective. This meant I retook the lead, especially thanks to scoring Battle Tactics using the Dragons for the bonus point. Then came the roll of the game; last round priority. I won it, and took it. If I hadn't won it, my Dragons would have died instantly, and my Phoenix likely would have followed - the key here being I would not have scored 4 points for holding his backfield objective, 2 points for my Battle Tactic and I think a few more besides. I shot 10 points ahead and, despite my opponents best efforts - he wiped out the Dragons with his Protectors, getting 3 points just for killing them thanks to the Prime Hunter rule, but couldn't put a dent in the Phoenix - he fell 2 points short of me. Phew. 

Major win. 

Game 5 v Stormcast - The Vice

I was 4-0 heading into this game, meaning a win would guarantee a podium position. My opponent? Hammers of Sigmar. Stormkeep. 3x5 Vindictors. A re-roll prayer roll Relictor with translocate. A Knight Draconis with the Luckstone. 4 Dragons. 6 Raptors. Thunderbolt Volley. One drop. Played by the 2-time Australian Master. Remember what I wrote about not wanting to ever go first? This game proved it in one. Being the one game where I was out-dropped, he obviously made me go first. The battleplan's deployment map also meant he could easily screen his Dragons and Raptors with just his Vindictors before I could ever get close to them; the only possible way to get to them without being annihilated first by teleporting Thunderbolting Raptors was through a double turn. Predictably, I kept my Phoenix on the board - not to try and bait that Thunderbolt out, but because we both knew he had no reason to attack it - and kept all my reserves in ambush. My plan? Win two concescutive priority rolls because, again, we both knew it was my only possible way of beating his army on this battleplan; the condensed deployment made it impossible to get around him, forcing me to go forward into him rather than flank him, and without a double turn, there was no way I'd survive his counter-punch once my reserves were committed. Having to screen the 44" wide edges instead of the 60" wide edges just made it way too easy for him, unfortunately.

So, first priority roll - and it's every bit as critical as the next. I won it, and gave him the double turn. Little happened outside of his Draconis teleporting and taking an objective off me to get three/three mission points for the turn. In retaliation, my Dragons and Irondrakes came on to clear him off - I arguably made a mistake not also bringing the Fulminators on, but my plan was to bring them on upon winning the double to clear one of the Vindictor units with their and the Dragons/Irondrakes shooting then charge into the gap. Using the Dragons to kill the Draconis was a bit risky due to their lower damage, but their hero-phase move and higher base move meant it made much, much more sense to bring them in there, as a 24" total move would be more than enough to get across the board to his Raptors in the subsequent turn. In any case, his Draconis managed to survive thanks to some incredible 6+ ward rolling on his part and smart use of his Luckstone coupled with some poor rolls on my part - in hindsight, popping my Inspired would've finished it off, but again, I was saving it for the all-important next round. At the end of the turn, I was only 1 point behind, but it all came down to the priority roll. He rolled a 5. I rolled a 2. He took it, and that was the game; my Dragons got shot off the board - he spiked hard on the mortal wounds, and I rolled terribly for my saves. My Phoenix got locked down by Vindictors, ensuring nothing could reach the Raptors. My Fulminators were forced to fight Vindictors when they came down - my Irondrakes handily finished off his Knight Draconis, not that it mattered - and I lost the next priority roll again, meaning his Dragons translocated then hero-phase moved to charge straight into my Fulminators, not that many were left after all the shooting. We mathed out whether he could kill my Phoenix - he did - denying me my Grand Strategy, but the game was well and truly over by that point. This one was tough because the combination of his list being a hard counter to mine - a one-drop with extreme damage output - and the battleplan not favouring me at all meant I had only way to win, and it relied on winning two consecutive priority rolls leading into round three. He remarked to me that I knew that was the case and that I had the right idea given that I gave him the double turn into turn two, but that's just how it goes sometimes. I was very happy the game was so 'simple' in a sense as by this point I was struggling to keep awake; it was over quickly and there wasn't much thought in terms of my positioning or anything like that - it wasn't 'tense' which probably sounds quite strange for a game that decided 3rd place! 

Major loss. 

 

I ended up coming 12th out of ~74 players. I aimed for 3-2 and finished 4-1 with a list I had little practical experience with, and largely a lot of that was dice luck and the sheer strength both of the warscrolls (Phoenix and Dragons were the easy stand outs) and of the allegiance rules (being able to effectively ensure everything valuable in the army can't get alpha struck is incredible.) I'm very happy with how I went given I've not played nearly as much 3.0 as I would've liked too, though it does make me think about what I might try next. The choice between keeping the Dragons/Fulminators in Hunters or sacrificing Hunters to go for Battle Regiment is rough (I would have needed to shave another unit to do that, namely the Irondrakes) as my last game proved that the power of the 1 drop can literally decide games depending on the matchup, but being in Hunters ensured my key units were never getting Roared; this is also really matchup dependent, as I didn't go against too many monsters and Hunters' value is determined by their presence. As far as unit composition goes, I've been weighing up dropping the Fulminators and keeping the Dragons - as crazy as that sounds given how shockingly good Fulminators are in Living City in particular, I was far, far more impressed with the Dragons this weekend, though that obviously could be a self-fulfilling prophecy given I was much more cautious with them than the Fulminators. Their utility and spell resistance is just incredible, and given their toughness I didn't feel those victory points they give up when dying as badly as you'd expect. I'm weighing up trying a Knight Draconis over the Fulminators and possibly buffing the Irondrakes up to 20 models in place of the Fulminators, though even if I lose the Hunters I'd still be a 2-drop thanks to having multiple monster heroes. Too many options as usual. 

Most important of all was that I had a great time through every game. As usual, all my opponents were incredible players and super nice and chatty, providing that friendly but competitive atmosphere I love about Australian AoS events. This was one of the hardest events in a long time just due to how tired I was through it all and how exceptionally close the games were - three of them were won by margins of 2 points, coming down to the last turn in each! - but they were all super fun and chill, and ultimately that's what I'm after when I play. It was a great time meeting new faces and catching up with a lot of the regulars that attend these big events, and honestly that's become my favourite part of the tournaments; I'm not the most social person, but I love catching up with familiar faces between and sometimes even during games, seeing how they've been doing and just shooting the breeze on Warhammer. COVID and the lack of events in the past few years has just exacerbated that feeling for me, and it helped make this one in particular feel really special. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Jaskier

[Barbarian Borelord]

I played a game with this list this afternoon against my brother in law's Gloomspite Gitz. I always get the short end when rolling for priority and so he had a double turn that cost me dearly. Still, at the end of the 3rd round it was a draw: we had an equal amount of victory points. This was 90% thanks to Alarielle and the 30 Sisters of Avelorn (or Watch, I prefer Avelorn) who both were an absolute beast on the battlefield, they practically wiped out all the opposition. Alarielle was at 1 wound left on one point and back to 16 at the start of the next hero phase. Also useful were the Kurnous Hunters with Greatswords she summoned, who were quite underwhelming in damage output but surprisingly tanky.

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Glade Lord (100)*
Freeguild General
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Araloth (110)*
Nomad Prince
- General
- Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan
- Artefact: Wardroth Horn
Alarielle the Everqueen (740)*
- Lore of Leaves: Ironoak Skin
Handmaiden of the Everqueen (175)
Lord-Imperatant

Battleline
Sisters of Avelorn (540)*
30 x Sisters of the Watch
- Reinforced x 2
Glade Guards (105)*
10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen
Glade Guards (105)*
10 x Freeguild Crossbowmen
10 x Eternal Guard (125)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93
Drops: 2

[Lord Krungharr]

Regarding the 4 Stormdrakes and 4 Fulminators in a Cities army, I do think they should prohibit reinforcement points being used on allies or coalition allies.  Too much cheese on the pizza.

[NauticalSoup]

22 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Regarding the 4 Stormdrakes and 4 Fulminators in a Cities army, I do think they should prohibit reinforcement points being used on allies or coalition allies.  Too much cheese on the pizza.

I mean at a certain point you might as well just remove allies/coalitions entirely at that point. It's rare enough for it to be worth it as-is, and the problem is the units not Cities.

Edited May 4, 2022 by NauticalSoup

[readercolin]

21 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Regarding the 4 Stormdrakes and 4 Fulminators in a Cities army, I do think they should prohibit reinforcement points being used on allies or coalition allies.  Too much cheese on the pizza.

Nah.  Just because stormdrakes and fulminators are strong, I shouldn't be prevented from bringing a reinforced unit of Grunstock Thunderers in my Tempest Eye army, or bringing a double-reinforced unit of Wardens in Settlers gain, or a reinforced block of dryads in the Living City.  Even limiting reinforcements to a single coalition unit breaks things like bringing 2 reinforced units of Endrinriggers in tempest eye, or deciding that I want to have a flavorful block of reinforced Vindictors in any of my cities.

Again, sweeping changes that affect everything is not the solution to the fact that stormdrakes are too strong, or that fulminators are the best unit to use with the living city command abilities.

[Lord Krungharr]

Yeah good points to all; Cities seems to be an army where bigger units of coalition allies do give it a direction and theme more than other armies.  I will retract that opinion.

[Popisdead]

On 4/29/2022 at 1:21 PM, Barbarian Borelord said:

. This was 90% thanks to Alarielle and the 30 Sisters of Avelorn (or Watch, I prefer Avelorn) 

I think they need spears in addition to their bows to be Avelorn.  But I like they are still there with Alarielle after all these ages that have passed.  Would be fluffy to include a Treelord Ancient as well.  I recall one being in one of the novels.  Either the Time of Legends or that Malekith trilogy series.

What about hunters with bows?  They will be really swingy regarding shots but taking out an enemy hero in a turn can really swing a game.  I mean if you're struggling with Sword output, try them.  

Neat list and looks fun.  I like seeing the counts-as units.  CoS is the place for that for sure.  You could consider using your GG as more Sisters.  I saw someone go 4-1 with 3x20 Sisters a few weeks back.  Something to consider.  

[Barbarian Borelord]

On 5/11/2022 at 6:22 PM, Popisdead said:

I think they need spears in addition to their bows to be Avelorn.  

Sisters of Avelorn/Watch have swords. Are you thinking of Handmaidens of the Everqueen? I had one of those, acting as a Lord-Imperatant.

60 Sisters would hit like a truck, but I think an army like that would be a bit too monotonous for me... 30 are already eating up a lot of points.

[Thugmullet]

So Allarielle is to get the Warmaster keyword.

In practice does this mean she will lose access to the shoot and scoot command from LC but retain access to the spell lore?

Will she also count as General in a Living City army?

[Jaskier]

3 hours ago, Thugmullet said:

So Allarielle is to get the Warmaster keyword.

In practice does this mean she will lose access to the shoot and scoot command from LC but retain access to the spell lore?

Will she also count as General in a Living City army?

Why would she lose access to the Living City command? She's only a Warmaster in a Sylvaneth army - so no, she wouldn't be a general in Living City. Her access to the spell lore would be the same as it is now, which is yes - that's decided by the wording of the spell lore itself (which lets unique Cities of Sigmar units use it.) 

[Thugmullet]

56 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Why would she lose access to the Living City command? She's only a Warmaster in a Sylvaneth army - so no, she wouldn't be a general in Living City. Her access to the spell lore would be the same as it is now, which is yes - that's decided by the wording of the spell lore itself (which lets unique Cities of Sigmar units use it.) 

OK. I see now. As they have only named Sylvaneth in the text then she is only Warmaster in Sylvaneth. So nothing changes for her in CoS. I was going off the other Warmaster models like Nagash who does not get army benefits in armies except for the spells. I can see that is set up to allow him in multiple armies as he exceeds the ally points of 400 and also tones him down so he is not OP in those armies. This is good.

[Jaskier]

9 hours ago, Thugmullet said:

OK. I see now. As they have only named Sylvaneth in the text then she is only Warmaster in Sylvaneth. So nothing changes for her in CoS. I was going off the other Warmaster models like Nagash who does not get army benefits in armies except for the spells. I can see that is set up to allow him in multiple armies as he exceeds the ally points of 400 and also tones him down so he is not OP in those armies. This is good.

Yeah Nagash is an exception to the rule and is closer to Gotrek than Alarielle in terms of how he fits into an army; any Death army can take him but outside of spells he can't use allegiance stuff. Whereas Alarielle is a Sylvaneth model that can go into Living City, Nagash has no parent faction. It's good for us; things like Alarielle and Karazai slot right in to Living City. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Jaskier

[Popisdead]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:47 AM, Barbarian Borelord said:

Sisters of Avelorn/Watch have swords. Are you thinking of Handmaidens of the Everqueen? I had one of those, acting as a Lord-Imperatant.

I'm assuming you are calling them Sisters of the Avelorn because of the Old World (yes the old handmaidens from 5th ed).  Hence my comments.

[Trickflo]

The back of the box they come in calls them sisters of avelorn I assume thats what the kit was called in fantasy

[Lord Krungharr]

Had a 3 Game tournament yesterday, 18 players.  My Living City (Hold the Line) had:

Warden King (general, Ironoak Artisan/Amulet of Destiny)

2 Runelords (1 Heal, 1 Curse, the healer had Arcane Tome and Lifesurge)

Gotrek

20 Ironbreakers, 20 Irondrakes, 10 Longbeards w greatweapons, 10 Hammerers

2 Gyrocopters

2 Fulminators

-First game vs the hated ridiculous Lumineth with Aluminum subfaction which makes them faster with pregame moves and a run and charge command (Horsey general, ghost-swordsman, catcaller, 20 archers, 2x20 spear guys, a balista, 5 horseys, and a windfox).  Mission called Focal Points from AoSShorts/Warcoda? Strange corner deployment zones, 4 objectives and all prime I think.

          He moved to my right strongly, and engaged my Ironbreakers with spears and fox, but they held strong and killed some spears after the Gyrocopters unleashed hell on them to erase I think 7 to start.  His archers tried to pound the Irondrakes, and I think 10/20 survived.  (I had thought to bait his horseys with my Drakes but he didn't take it).

          I just put Gotrek out the middle running 10", outflanking a Runelord, Hammerers, and Fulminators to his back field for the alpha strike/melt into his general.  They failed to kill him that turn, but managed to do so next turn, and take out the catcaller too.  Hammerers failed to charge the archers.  Gyros and Ironbreakers finished off the spears but the fox would remain a nuisance throughout the game.

         Over the game, Gotrek went in and butchered another 20 spears, the balista, the archers, and grabbed objectives.  He was AWESOME this game.  Hammerers and Runelord grabbed back objective whilst Drakes/King/other Runelord/Longbeards guarded my central back objective but ended up getting out-foxxed and horsied.  Warden King stood his ground but the Runelord was the last standing, along with Gotrek.  Glorious battle with only 4 models standing at the end (ghost-swords barely fought).  I lost by 2 points!  Failing to Slay The Warlord turn 1 with the Fulminators hurt; they kinda whiffed as I was low on CPs after surviving the turn 1 onslaught and using Strike/Melt to get them into combat, and neither of us got our Grand Strategies.  I also forgot about Monstrous Takeover and doing the Metamorphosis spell with my Arcane Tome Runelord turn 5 (DRATS!).

-2nd game vs my buddy and his new Ironjawz Ironsunz (I think that was the subfaction, the faster one).  He had a Mawkrusha (smelly un), Warchanter, Weirdnob Shaman, 2x3 Goregruntas, 3x10 Brutes.  SOOO much rend-2 with a thing to make them do an extra point of damage per attack.  Mission was opposit table quarters deployment with objective in center of each, prime in our zones. 

                He let me go first so I tried the alpha strike again with the Fulminators and killed 2 Gruntas and nearly the third on my left side.  The Hammerers and Runelord were just far enough to nab that objective, so the Fulminators sacrifice was not in vain, they were a good speedbump.  Gotrek again was front and center, running 10" up daring everyone to charge him.....which the center Brutes did.....and they got Unleash Helled to lose 3-4 by Irondrakes who just so happened to be close enough   Gotrek lived, and eventually got rid of those Brutes.   Mawkrusha hopped up but didn't get to do anything, and got shot and then Hammerered to death!  Gotrek failed the charge but perhaps it was just to give his little minions a chance to do something important.  Orruks came in strong from the north east into the Ironbreakers guarding the King.  Gyros and Gotrek went far out to get Savage Spearhead and nab and objective, and Gotrek cleaned up the Shaman and lonesome Grunta.  Another loss, but only  by 1 point, failed to Hold the Line, and failed to achieve a Battle Tactic of some sort at some point.

-3rd game vs Bonesplitterz Icebone (to hits of 6 do an extra hit for units of 5 or more models, and wounds of 6 do MW equal to the damage of the weapon....it adds up)  He had Savage Boss (great hunter for half the army 8" pregame move), 2 Wurgoggs, a Wardokk, Maniak Weirdnob, 2x20 Stikka Boyz, 2x5 Boarboys, 1x10 Maniak Boarboys, 4 Big Stabbas.  Classic long-halves deployment, 6 objectives. 

         I went first, outflanking Gyros and Hammerers only....this was a mistake.  I also charged up trying to Slay the Warlord with Fulminators turn 1 and get into his pocket close to the wizards (because his Grand Strat was Prized Sorcery), also a horrible blunder.  He called the WAAAGH my turn 1, as Gotrek was also into 20 Stikka Boyz.  Fulminators failed hard and died, Gotrek was half wounded but making good progress and mulching the Stikka Boyz.  He tried to move to my right with Boarboys, moved up with the Maniaks, failed to lasereyes Gotrek with the Wurgoggs, Runelords shut down 2 spells.  Gotrek ended up falling around top of turn 3 I think to combined Big Stabbas, Savage Boss, and Maniaks.  Drakes took care of 5 Boarboys with Unleash Hell, the other 5 tried to sneak around but ended up dying eventually also. 

          Drakes combined with an amazing 11" Ironbreaker charge (12" with the musician) plus grumpy Longbeards took care of the Maniaks and the Big Stabbas.  The Gyros, Hammerers, and eventually the Ironbreakers took the center back objective but were then charged by 20 Stikkaboyz, along with the last Wurgogg, and they couldn't hold it.  Gyros flew over to Conquer where the stikkaboyz were.  

         Last turn we had to just talk it out quickly cuz of time constraints, and I took Priority and went for Monstrous Takeover, but he unbound my spell.  He did the same, I unbound his spell.  Stupid me though, I realized I could have done Aggressive Expansion in his backfield with retreating Ironbreakers!  Dang it.  I would have won BUT because of the hunters thing now and he killed my Fulminators, we tied.    

All amazingly close and exciting games!  I was impressed on some occasions at the Irondrakes and Ironbreakers capabilities; they just take a bit more planning and synergy than I am used to thinking about.  Warden King is a decent general, just wish he had like 7 wounds or native ward save.   

Gyros actually did some good work.  Horde units are not gone and I think most games will have units of 10 models for them to go after.  And their speed can let them sneak off for tactics/objectives.  Usually a low target priority too.  For Unleash Hell purposes a pair can act very similarly to Irondrakes with just as many shots vs a charging horde if you keep them close to the screen unit.

Can't be so aggressive with just a pair of Fulminators.  I see why people run 4.  When I make some Dwarvish looking conversions I'll try that out.  If Strike/Melt gets nerfed to ending up 9" away after that, we'll need to change battlestrategery.

But I plan to try some switching out 2-3 units for Gyro-stormdrakes.  Model count for objectives IS still important, so they'd be fast, 10 total models, plus durable and good in combat and toss out some MW flames.

Left my phone in the car, I'll put up pictures later.  

 

[Lord Krungharr]

The ghostly swordsman in photo 1 actually had LEDs lighting him up!  Really cool effect.

[Lord Krungharr]

I aim to tweek my army list for my next tournament June 11.  Want to try out my converted Stormdrakes (trading out my 20 Irondrakes to see who performs better).  Gotrek was pretty fun this last event, but a Steam Tank and Hurricanum could prove pretty fun as well (all are on the paint bench right now).

What do my fellow citizens of the Living City think I should run at my next 3 day competitive event?  Gotta throw some grudges at my opponents.....

1st option:

Gotrek/ Warden King (Ironoak Artisan/Amulet of Destiny) / 2 Runelords (1 w Arcane Tome and Lifesurge/Guidance...1 w Curse)

20 Ironbreakers/2x10 Longbeards w great weapons

1x2 Gyrocopters (steam guns of course)

1x2 Fulminators

1x2 Stormdrake Guard (warblades)

2nd option:

Warden King (same as above)/ 2 Runelords (same as above)/ Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (Ironoak Skin)

2x10 Ironbreakers/ 1x10 Longbeards w great weapons

1x2 Gyrocopters

1x2 Fulminators

1x2 Stormdrake Guard (warblades)

Celestial Hurricanum (no wizard)

Steam Tank (no commander)

.......not sure if the Steam Tank and Hurricanum's tricks and bulk will make up for lack of Gotrek.  While he's slow, he really creates a big danger zone and/or fire-focus for the enemy.  I'm prioritizing the Stormdrakes for paint, but could get the other warmachines at least 3 colors by then.  I know there will be some Ossiarchs, maybe a Lumineth player, some Seraphon, probably some Stormcast and Soulblight, possibly some IDK, and almost certainly some sort of Orruks, and slim chance of a Sons of Behemat.  Leaning Gotrek at this point.  Any thoughts?

Oh, also, what is the Bastions of Hope Grand Strategy?  I can't find that one in the rules or online anywhere.  Is that in a White Dwarf or something?  Wondering what Grand Strat would be best for my City.  Dominating Presence might good; failed Hold the Line badly every time last weekend.

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[Jaskier]

It will be interesting if they do change the command ability so you have to finish the move more than 9" away from enemies, and honestly it's a sensible change given we knew GW were always going to nerf Living City in some manner. They likely wrote the rule with the idea players would use it to keep ranged units out of harm, not "melt away" right into the opponents' face 😅 it sucks for our competitive chances but the faction winning LVO guaranteed something had to give. 

In terms of how it affects list building, I think it will just seal my thoughts from SGT - Stormdrakes over Fulminators for our heavy hitter, because they don't need the extra mobility the command ability offers. Sisters of the Watch and Irondrakes will be top of my list to add in to compensate for the loss of melee punch, and I might lean into Gotrek now that the melee-alpha strategy is changing up. Wait and see I guess. 

[Marcvs]

4 hours ago, Jaskier said:

It will be interesting if they do change the command ability so you have to finish the move more than 9" away from enemies, and honestly it's a sensible change given we knew GW were always going to nerf Living City in some manner.

While I agree on the inevitability of the nerf, I wish they would have picked a different route, notably making it so that you can't charge after using fire and melt away. IF it ends up being the 9" away thing, it will also make the ability very difficult to use to just get in better positions, steal objectives and so on -and all this because of one single combination (Fulminators).

[Jaskier]

3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

While I agree on the inevitability of the nerf, I wish they would have picked a different route, notably making it so that you can't charge after using fire and melt away. IF it ends up being the 9" away thing, it will also make the ability very difficult to use to just get in better positions, steal objectives and so on -and all this because of one single combination (Fulminators).

I agree, ultimately it's going to heavily affect how strong we are but having considered some of the discussion earlier about the topic I'm happier with this than some of the other alternative routes they could have taken. At least we should still get to use Sylvaneth/Stormcast/etc without hindrance. 

[Lord Krungharr]

But will using the Sylvaneth be more useful than just using Stormcast or other Cities units?  Actually not even sure the new tome came out yet.  Seems like it's taking forever.  

Would love for my old metal Treelords and Durthu to be useful!