Cities of Sigmar : Lists and synergies tactica

[Maturin]

Hey guys,

so, the BT is out now, so I think it's tiem for thread to evolve. I deleted all the changes we've noted down and I will start a synergy/Tactics list so we can all easily find what's good or not quite easily, instead of having to go through literraly several dozens of pages.

Here we go :

Possible Combos (before battletome is out) :

One quick combo that @dekay noticed: griffon's, dark riders' and kharybdiss' bravery buffs seem to  stack with one another. If you use all 3, we're talking about -3 bravery to anything near them.

Outriders. Battleline and required for the battalion, so naturally, worth taking. For 100 pts you get 5d3+5 4+/3+/-1 shots. City's warlord trait adds +1 to wound. They have +2 to run and can shoot afterwards. In battalion they can also retreat and shoot. First turn threat range: up to 41 inches. Like.. damn.  Oh, and they have, of course, easy access to the Hurricanum [that, with 13+d6+1 run furst turn move can keep up with them] for +1 to hit, and wildform, for +2 additional threat range on one unit. 

MATHHAMMER

MathHammer from @Frowny
 

MATHHAMMER REVIEW PT 1.: THE SHOOTENING from @swarmofseals

I've completed my basic number crunching for shooting, and wow is this book's balance tight! I'm going to split things out into different categories and go in depth from there.

A note on the statistics I am using: I use a self made formula called Weighted Damage Rating to compare damage types across rend. It's not perfect but it gives a pretty accurate estimate of the value of different rend types and mortal wounds. Note that it is a measure of efficiency not absolute power: it shows basically the average expected damage (weighted for rend) that a unit will cause per point that you spent on it.

For defense, I use simple defensive efficiency: the expected wounds pre-save wounds it will take to kill a unit per point that the unit cost. I provide two ratings, one vs. rend - and one vs. mortal wounds. Performance for other rend types will fall somewhere in between these two numbers.

In both cases higher numbers are better.

I've used max unit sizes for all calculations.

ARTILLERY

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Helblaster Volley Gun offense: .0216/.0251/.0287/.0335 for long range no engineer/long range engineer/point blank no engineer/point blank engineer firing 2 decks. For 3 decks its: .0194/.0291/.0259/.0388. This math assumes that with an engineer you will reroll any double and keep any other result. This may not be quite optimized. 

Helstorm Rockets offense: .0255/.0297 for salvo without/with engineer. Numbers are lower if you don't use salvo fire. 

Celestar Ballista: .0235/.0469 for single/multi shot

Analysis: 

Overall these numbers are quite low at baseline, but they can be buffed quite a bit. A Lord-ordinator would help, and it might be that with the Greywater Fastness battalion, a Lord Ordinator, and a Runelord you can start getting things up to respectable levels for at least a turn. Personally I think there are better choices but I could see it working.

MISSILE INFANTRY

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Offense:

Darkshards: .0671 - can benefit from additional +1 to hit/+2 to wound

Crossbows: .0674/.112 without/with freeguild general CA - can benefit from additional +1 to hit

Handgunners: .0611/.0954 without/with freeguild general CA - hit/wound capped

Irondrakes: .0827/.0876/.1026/.1082 non-monster/monster/with runelord buff vs. non-monster/with runelord buff vs. monster. Can benefit from +1 hit and +1 wound.

Shadow Warriors: .0406/.0672 outside/inside cover. Can benefit from +1 to wound (+1 to hit/+2 to wound outside cover)

Sisters of the Watch: .0877/.1096 without/with Nomad Prince CA. Can benefit from +1 wound.

 

Defense:

Darkshards: .15/.1 vs. r- and mw respectively

Crossbows/Handgunners: .12/.1

Irondrakes: .133/.067 vs. melee .2/.067 vs. ranged

Shadow Warriors: .136/.091

Sisters of the Watch: .09375/.0625

 

Analysis:

I think every one of these units is viable. While some clearly have much more efficient offense than others, the ones that have lower offense have other strengths that give them a role. Specifically, Darkshards enjoy greater mobility and have a bit more room for buffs than the other warscrolls. They don't need to stand still to get full value. Shadow Warriors, on the other hand, get that nice deepstrike.

The other options are all quite close together. For all of those folks upset over the crossbow nerf: it was needed. Crossbows are still the most efficient choice at baseline and they also enjoy excellent range. Their downside is that they can't stand and shoot. Aside from raw efficiency, their major buffer (the Freeguild General) can tag three units for one CP, which makes these a great choice as the backbone of a gunline.

Handgunners are still very good, albeit noticeably less efficient than crossbows. They do get the benefit of stand and shoot, however. They also have a more potent champion than most other units, with the long rifle providing very valuable hero sniping. Handgunners could be great in large numbers as a frontline or screen or good in MSU configuration to get a bunch of long rifles. The fact that the Freeguild General tags three with one CP could go a long way toward making MSU doable. It's worth noting that with just the FG buff, these guys should be at 2+/2+, so they don't benefit from any further buffs to scale them.

Irondrakes are a bit tougher and fall between crossbows and handguns in terms of efficiency. That said they offer nice rend, especially when buffed by a Runelord. If you want rend at range, these guys are a great choice. They don't get stand and shoot, but they sit at 3+/3+ normally and thus can be scaled to be even more efficient with further hit and wound bonuses. If you can get Irondrakes to 2+/2+, they end up much more efficient than even crossbows. That said, you do need a Runelord for every unit and even then the buff will sometimes fail... so it might not be viable to take 90 of them in the way you could with crossbows. Note that they do perform better than either handgunners or crossbows at baseline without any buffs.

Sisters of the Watch are almost as efficient as crossbows with basic buffs, can benefit from an extra +1 to wound, are more efficient without buffs, and can stand and shoot. All around great, but the most defensively inefficient. EDIT: corrected misinformation about the Nomad Prince CP.

MISSILE "CAVALRY"

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Offense:

Gyrocopter bombs (once per battle): .06

Gyrocopter steam guns: .0074 per model hit (again, I'm assuming the full size three copter unit)

Gyrobomber bombs: .0514

Gyrobomber clattergun: .0253

Outriders: .0443/.0831 without/with general buff

Pistoliers: .0443/.0886 not charging/charging. I didn't factor in the general buff here because it's not realistic to pull off with Pistoliers.

Dark Riders: .0285

Scourgerunner Chariots: .0838

 

Defense:

Gyrocopters: .1333/.067

Gyrobombers: .143/.071

Outriders: .15/.1

Pistoliers: .15/.1

Dark Riders: .222/.111

Scourgerunner Chariots: .18/.12

 

Analysis:

Dark Riders are the only warscroll with really weak shooting efficiency. I was surprised at how good the chariots are. I don't think I'd take Outriders personally, but they are fine if you like them. Pistoliers are a bit more interesting, albeit at very short range. The gyros are both potentially very useful. The Gyrobomber can pick off heroes quite effectively with the bombs and the clattergun adds a bit of extra damage. The copters have a one shot bomb, but their steam guns can really do work against hordes. If you can reach 13 models with each copter, they will be just as efficient as any of the infantry (not counting the bombs either).  

EDIT: Steam Tanks!

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Steam Tank Cannon: .0121/.0161/.0202 default/+1hit/+2hit

Steam Gun: .0146/.0194 default/+1hit

Steam Gun (more pressure): .0188/.025 default/+1hit

Defense: .18/.06

The commander version will just be 25% worse on each mark.

Overall, I think these fall flat unfortunately. Even with impact hits and their command ability running their melee profile is also terrible. Combine that with random move and you have a very cool unit that just doesn't measure up.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Maturin

[Charlo]

Scourgerunner chariots changed.

Harpoon now deals D3 MW on an unmodified 6 to hit, sequence ends. 

[madmac]

Universal Change:

Banners give + Bravery and Musicians +1 run/charge. This seems to be applied to all CoS models with those options.

Wanderers:

Nomad Prince-+1 save, lost Deepwood shield and Eye Thief abilities, and Hunting Hawk Beak attack, Gained Harrying Bird of Prey ability-one enemy hero within 16" -1 cast/unbind/attack rolls. Command ability now gives +1 to Hit instead of re-rolling ones.

Wild Riders-Hunting Spear gains -1 rend, shield ability gone, mistake? Unbound Fury changed to Hunting Spear is -2 rend/2 Damage on the charge.

Sisters of the Thorn-No longer get +1 casting for 10+ models, Shield of Thorns re-worded Casting value changed to 7, grants cover and mortal wounds on natural sixes instead of re-roll saves and 6+ mortal wounds, also now requires unit to not move.

WildWood Rangers-2 Damage vs monsters instead of d3

Eternal Guard-+1 Save, attack profile changed from one attack at 4/4 to 2 attacks at 3/4. Lost Glade Shield ability. Fortress of Boughs completely re-worked. Instead of activate in hero phase and then gain +1 hit/wound/save if not moving, activates as long as they haven't moved that turn, same bonuses.

Sisters of the Watch:

Overwatch ability changed to activate if charge ends within 3" instead of .5 inch, Quicksilver shot no longer activates if enemies within 3", Eldritch Arrow changed from +1 wound vs Chaos to 1 mortal wound (any target) on a wound roll of 6 in addition to regular damage
 

[madmac]

Scourge Privateers:

Black Ark Fleetmaster-Sea dragon cloak +1 save vs shooting instead of re-roll ones. Murderous Swashbuckler changed from re-roll all failed hits for Cutlass to Natural sixes with Cutlass generate two hits. Command Ability changed from 14" inches to WW 12", gives +1 melee attacks instead of re-roll all failed hits.

(Is it just me or is ol' 40 points actually worse?)

Black Ark Corsairs-Sea dragon cloak as above. Flashing Steel changed from +1 hit in the combat phase if 20+ corsairs to +1 to hit all attacks made if 15+ corsairs.

Kharibdyss-Abyssal Howl changed from -1 Bravery to one unit within 10" to all units within 12".  Feast of Bones changed to roll 1 die for ever model slain with fanged tentacles 6=1 wound healed to if any models were killed by any attacks from the KH in that combat phase, heal d3 wounds.

Scourgerunner Chariot: Harpoon changed from one attack 4+ to hit to 2 attacks 3+ to hit. Harpoon now does d3 mortal damage and attack sequence ends on a 6 to hit instead of d6 damage against monsters on a 6+ to wound.

[Thiagoma]

2 hours ago, Thiagoma said:

Phoenix Temple Changes!

Anointed:

- Can try to dispell 1 Endless Spell on your Hero Phase and one on the Enemy Hero Phase.

- Command Ability now have Range 12" instead of 8"

 

Phoenix Guard:

- Rend -1 (yay)

- Banners now only give 1 bravery. No more 2 bravery if close to another PG unit with another banner.

- Drummers now gives +1 charge instead of re-roll 1s on run and charge.

- Emboldened up from 8' to 12' but now requires to be Wholly Within a PG hero

- Aura of Dread is gone.

 

The Birds!

- Attuned to magic Nerfed: Now requires that the spell is not unbound and also can only give you +1 save.

- Flame and Frosty now have save 4 instead of 5.

- Flamespyre Wake of Fire now deal Fixed damage (5 and goes down to 1).  Wake of Fire now requires a roll of 2+

- Flamespyre Phoenix Reborn now do not have to be set up at 9" from the enemy.

- Both Phoenix with Anointed also have their CA range increased to 12"

 

 

From the Phoenicium topic.

[Kyriakin]

2 hours ago, madmac said:

Scourge Privateers:

Black Ark Fleetmaster-Sea dragon cloak +1 save vs shooting instead of re-roll ones. Murderous Swashbuckler changed from re-roll all failed hits for Cutlass to Natural sixes with Cutlass generate two hits. Command Ability changed from 14" inches to WW 12", gives +1 melee attacks instead of re-roll all failed hits.

(Is it just me or is ol' 40 points actually worse?)

Black Ark Corsairs-Sea dragon cloak as above. Flashing Steel changed from +1 hit in the combat phase if 20+ corsairs to +1 to hit all attacks made if 15+ corsairs.

Kharibdyss-Abyssal Howl changed from -1 Bravery to one unit within 10" to all units within 12".  Feast of Bones changed to roll 1 die for ever model slain with fanged tentacles 6=1 wound healed to if any models were killed by any attacks from the KH in that combat phase, heal d3 wounds.

Scourgerunner Chariot: Harpoon changed from one attack 4+ to hit to 2 attacks 3+ to hit. Harpoon now does d3 mortal damage and attack sequence ends on a 6 to hit instead of d6 damage against monsters on a 6+ to wound.

I think the Fleetmaster has to suck (he even did during WHFB IIRC). He's basically a meme now. Supreme self-confidence, with nothing to justify it.

Does that Kharybdyss howl stack? I'm picturing a Kharybdyss gangbang (which would reduce anyone's bravery) right now, with venn diagrams of multiple bravery dubuffs.

Also, Feast of Bones was the most pointless rule in the game before. Now its solid.

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

Does that Kharybdyss howl stack? I'm picturing a Kharybdyss gangbang (which would reduce anyone's bravery) right now, with venn diagrams of multiple bravery dubuffs.

Unless there's a rule in the core book saying one unti can't be affected multiple times from the same enemy ability, there's nothing preventing it in the Kharybdiss warscroll.

[spenson]

Sorceress on black dragon: Her shooting attack was clarified. Her spell now makes you roll 9 dice and deal a MW on each roll lower than the save characteristic of the unit instead of 6 dice vs the unit's best to hit characteristic. She also gets two command abilities. The first one gives run/shoot/charge to a darkling coven unit wholly within 12". Her second ability gives re-roll wound rolls of 1 for a friendly darkling coven unit wholly within 12" at the start of the combat phase.

I think it's a typo but the to wound characteristic of her jaw went from 2+ -> 6+ to 1+ -> 5+. It's the first time I see a to wound characteristi of 1+.

Sorceress: her spell is now D3 MW instead of 1 and the range is 18" instead of 16". She gets the Sorceress on black dragon's first command ability.

Blackguard: can only get +1 to bravery from their banner, has +1 to run and charges from drummer (instead of reroll 1 charge die) and get +1 to hit wholly within 12" of a Darkling coven hero instead of rerolling 1's to hit.

--> the change to drummer and banner bearer applies to all the units.

Executionners They only dead 1 MW on an unmodified hit roll of 6 instead of 2. Ouch.

Dreadspears and bleakswords get +1 to their save but lose their save reroll and all their abilities for +1 to hit if the unit has 10+ models.

Darkshards don't get +1 save and lose their save reroll and all their abilities for +1 to hit if the unit has 10+ models.

I will say that's kinda meh overall and the executionner nerf kinda.

Dark riders: gained +1 save, their ability to add D6 to a battleshock test if the enemy rolls a 1 has been replaced with -1 bravery for units within 12, their darkshield (reroll saves of 1 or 1 and 2 in combat phase) has been replaced with D2 for the spear on charge.

[spenson]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

I think the Fleetmaster has to suck (he even did during WHFB IIRC). He's basically a meme now. Supreme self-confidence, with nothing to justify it.

Does that Kharybdyss howl stack? I'm picturing a Kharybdyss gangbang (which would reduce anyone's bravery) right now, with venn diagrams of multiple bravery dubuffs.

Also, Feast of Bones was the most pointless rule in the game before. Now its solid.

 

26 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Unless there's a rule in the core book saying one unti can't be affected multiple times from the same enemy ability, there's nothing preventing it in the Kharybdiss warscroll.

The warscroll explicitly says "within 12" of any models with this ability." so it doesn't stack.

 

 

[Maturin]

1 minute ago, spenson said:

The warscroll explicitly says "within 12" of any models with this ability." so it doesn't stack.

You're right. Read too fast.

[Arkhanist]

For Dispossessed, comparing new unit website warscrolls to Grand Alliance: Order book.

- For all: Various re-rolling saves with shields (shieldwall etc) removed. Musicians changed to +1 to run and charge rolls. Banners changed to +1 bravery. Both changed to max 1-in-10 models. All units changed to 'any number of models'.

- Warden King: Save improved to 3+, command ability changed to +1A for dispossessed melee weapons against single enemy unit within 18" of King. Doesn't stack.

- Runelord: can also attempt to dispel 1 endless spell with a +2, rune lore prayer (both effects) range reduced to a dispossessed unit wholly within 12".

- Irondrakes: Ironwarden drakefire pistol improved to 3+ to hit, +1A if paired, only as missile wpn; but mailed fist improved to 4+ to wound for all. Unit loses ignore rend of -1, gains +1 save against missile attacks. Loses 5+ spell save on banner. Lots of other rewording with no net changes I think. Blaze Away FAQ change reversed, back to gets +1A for missile wpns if didn't move that turn.

- Longbeards: Great axe or axe/hammer and shield, Great axe and shield option removed. Great Axe improved to 3+ to hit. Shields now give +1 save against melee attacks. Old Grumblers changed to 1 of a) +1 bravery to friendly dispossessed units wholly within 12, b) You can re-roll wound rolls of 1 for attacks made by friendly Dispossessed units while wholly within 12", c) attempt to dispel 1 endless spell

- Ironbreakers: Save improved to 3+. Ironbeard pistol missile wpn stays 4+ to hit but 2A, +1A if paired, melee profile replaced with mailed fist (same statline). Unit loses ignore rend of -1. Loses 5+ spell save on banner.

- Hammerers: Ignores battleshock reduced to wholly within within 12" of friendly dispossessed hero. Gains inflicting an additional MW for unmodified wound rolls of 6.

Technically ironweld, but I'mma doing them anyway:

- Gyrocopter: Move increased to 16". Steam gun improved to attack all models in unit within 8". Bomb changed to 2+ chance (per gyro) to inflict D3 mortal wounds once per battle.

- Gyrobomber: Bomb changed to 2+ chance (per gyro) to inflict D3 mortal wounds

- Cogsmith: Automatically repairs D3 W on a ironweld war machine within 3". Cog axe improved to 3+ to hit. Can give up cog axe for +1 to hit with missile wpns; or give up grudge-raker for +1 to hit with melee wpns.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Arkhanist
added cogsmith, missed that irondrake FAQ was reversed.

[Maturin]

Thanks guys for your participation, I'll finish later on this afternoon, keep em coming meanwhile!

[Dr Ben]

So.... much.... info. Thanks everyone. 

Quick first ideas.... Starting with the battlemage I see 3 combos immediately: ulgu and chamon to cripple a key enemy units movement, ghur and hysh to buff a key melee unit and azyr with luminark to splash mortal wounds. 

Also using a luminark to shoot your own flagellants seems like it would work to proc their +1A

 

[Thalandor]

many or even all of the reroll abilities have been removed in favour of a flat +1 to X. My guess is, that GW wants to increase the pace of the game. Nowadays, it takes forever to resolve a combat between two units  because everyone keeps rerolling their dice. I really like this change.

[The Merchant Prince]

10 hours ago, Maturin said:

but the Longrifle lost 1damage (from 2 to 1)

No? It seems to still do 2 damage according to the warscroll

[Maturin]

4 minutes ago, The Merchant Prince said:

No? It seems to still do 2 damage according to the warscroll

Yeah, I corrected that already. I started writing after only 5 hours of sleep, my head was in my ***
Thanks for keeping an eye out @The Merchant Prince

Edited September 28, 2019 by Maturin

[dekay]

4 minutes ago, Thalandor said:

many or even all of the reroll abilities have been removed in favour of a flat +1 to X. My guess is, that GW wants to increase the pace of the game. Nowadays, it takes forever to resolve a combat between two units  because everyone keeps rerolling their dice. I really like this change.

Also, you can now get rerolls of 1 for anything from basic command abilities, so any skills granting it are much less useful than they were before. Generally speaking, any unit that lost their rerolls for flat +1 can still add them back on top of it for the cost of CP.

[Maturin]

4 minutes ago, dekay said:

Also, you can now get rerolls of 1 for anything from basic command abilities, so any skills granting it are much less useful than they were before. Generally speaking, any unit that lost their rerolls for flat +1 can still add them back on top of it for the cost of CP.

And if you're low on CP or want to use it for wound rerolls, you still have the Knight Azyros for 100points.

[Kristensen]

Free People Handgunners seems to have gained the Crossbowmen stand and shoot ability. 

[Maturin]

2 minutes ago, Kristensen said:

Free People Handgunners seems to have gained the Crossbowmen stand and shoot ability. 

They always had it, both crossbowmen and handgunners. It was the piper rules who gave them this ability as per Grand Alliance Order Battletome.

[madmac]

I haven't internalized all the point changes yet, but it's interesting to note that Greatswords are now 160/10 making them one of the most expensive infantry units in CoS.

Also going from the early reviews on Youtube, there aren't any hidden subfaction rules or anything. the GHB rules only apply if you are using that allegiance instead of Cities.

City abilities are a bit more substantial than early previews have let on though, most cities give at least two bonuses plus general traits, artifacts, spell lores and at least one city with a prayer lore, IIRC. Every city has one associated Warscroll battalion.

Edited September 28, 2019 by madmac

[Kristensen]

2 minutes ago, Maturin said:

They always had it, both crossbowmen and handgunners. It was the piper rules who gave them this ability as per Grand Alliance Order Battletome.

You are right, confused me, that they made it a new ability like that, wish the Crossbowmen still had it, only painted 10, so guess the 8/10 more I've build, will meet with my knife to get guns instead. 

[Maturin]

12 minutes ago, madmac said:

I haven't internalized all the point changes yet, but it's interesting to note that Greatswords are now 160/10 making them one of the most expensive infantry units in CoS.

Also going from the early reviews on Youtube, there aren't any hidden subfaction rules or anything. the GHB rules only apply if you are using that allegiance instead of Cities.

City abilities are a bit more substantial than early previews have let on though, most cities give at least two bonuses plus general traits, artifacts, spell lores and at least one city with a prayer lore, IIRC. Every city has one associated Warscroll battalion.

Did you get the points from the video posted in CoS discussion ?

[Thalandor]

15 minutes ago, madmac said:

I haven't internalized all the point changes yet, but it's interesting to note that Greatswords are now 160/10 making them one of the most expensive infantry units in CoS.

where did you see these point changes?

edit: too late, same question as Maturin

Edited September 28, 2019 by Thalandor

[The Merchant Prince]

15 minutes ago, madmac said:

I haven't internalized all the point changes yet, but it's interesting to note that Greatswords are now 160/10 making them one of the most expensive infantry units in CoS.

Also going from the early reviews on Youtube, there aren't any hidden subfaction rules or anything. the GHB rules only apply if you are using that allegiance instead of Cities.

City abilities are a bit more substantial than early previews have let on though, most cities give at least two bonuses plus general traits, artifacts, spell lores and at least one city with a prayer lore, IIRC. Every city has one associated Warscroll battalion.

we have points?