AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Dante2021]

4 minutes ago, Sception said:

If I were running a tournament the way I'd handle it is to let the OBR player swap out one piece of similarly sized terrain on the board for their nexus, with their opponent allowed one veto of terrain piece chosen.

But we'll just have to wait and see how it's handled.  The faction isn't super dependant on the nexus, I could see it just being banned, which would be kind of sad.

No need to ban. No need for veto. You don't know which side you play and you don't know the effects (ussualy) of terrain! So player comes to the battlefield end moves or swaps terrein. ALthough it is problematic at this point this is how it should be done. 

[Overread]

Sylvaneth can still put down forests mid-game which are big terrain features on the table well after the terrain is set. The Ossiarch one would just fit into that same category for any pre-made table at a tournament. 

[Pejzub]

Here is the list I plan on playing

Petrifex Elite

Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis (500)
- General

Mortisan Soulmason (140)
-Godbone Armour
-Lore of Mortisians: Reinforced Battle Shields
Mortisan Soulreaper (120)
-Gotthizar Cartouche
-Lore of Mortisians: Empowered Naditite Weapons

20x Mortek Guard (260)
10x Mortek Guard (130)
10x Mortek Guard (130)

6x Necropolis Stalkers (400)
Gothizzar Harvester (200)

Shield Corps (120)

2000

I am not 100% set on the spells or artefacts (this is the one that gives +1 to wound 9" WW),  might try some of the + to cast ones on Mason on others. The list will most likely be prone to low model count, I am very well aware of it, but will playtest before making changes. I have been also thinking about the battalion, if its really necessary - do not think second artefact if you play Katakross is necessary (as you have the +1 to hit from him), I am still at 5 drops which is not enough to contest most of the games and I do not think I need the RD from it, as I am currently at 7 guaranteed plus 8 dice rolls. I however struggle on how to use the extra 120 points, if only something would be 10 points cheaper. Most likely upgrading the reaper to shaper, and include some random endless spell, probably Geminids for the potential -3 to hit (terrain, Kata, geminids).

Obvious upgrade to the list would be cutting Katakros and putting Arkhan in, playing 20/20/10 and upgrading the reaper to shaper and keeping the battalion. I, however, really like the Katakros model and rules, and I am set to make him work, even thought I am sure that the Arkhan version would be superior in basically everything.

[tea_wild_owl]

21 minutes ago, Pejzub said:

Thats cool and all, but what we are talking about here is how is it for tournaments and especially this point bellow, that is if the terrain is already set up before by tournament organizer - which is legal.

just read the rest of my post, even if it's quite long

your picture is basically a house rule, as per official matched play core rules terrain is set by the players. so this will need to be addressed by a TO, which is bot done yet

the main issue is that for maximum efficiency the nexus should be somewhere in the centre of the battlefield (except when there is an objective), so it would be a hindrance if there is pre placed terrain (which shouldn't be there yet as by core rule sequence)

Edited October 30, 2019 by tea_wild_owl

[Pejzub]

I have read your whole post, my point still stands. You are talking about Matched play, I am talking about Tournament Matched play, for which there are rules. It is definitely not a house rule, if its written in the official rules of the game. There is a rule that if you are not able to setup the terrain by the rules you are not to play it. Is it hindrance? Sure it is, but the rule is there for a reason.  Maybe it is meant to not be played in every game, it is probably so far the strongest terrain there is.  We can debate on RAW vs RAI all we want, but we are going to have to wait for FAQ to get some light on this.

[XReN]

Just now, Pejzub said:

I have read your whole post, my point still stands. You are talking about Matched play, I am talking about Tournament Matched play, for which there are rules. It is definitely not a house rule, if its written in the official rules of the game. There is a rule that if you are not able to setup the terrain by the rules you are not to play it. Is it hindrance? Sure it is, but the rule is there for a reason.  Maybe it is meant to not be played in every game, it is probably so far the strongest terrain there is.  We can debate on RAW vs RAI all we want, but we are going to have to wait for FAQ to get some light on this.

Those rules are not intended to be enforced 

[XReN]

6 minutes ago, Pejzub said:

Maybe it is meant to not be played in every game

And this is quite possibly the biggest BS that GW might come up with, right in line with introducing mercenary companies, but than some of those units don't make it into CoS book, or releasing Gaming Book a couple of month after GHB

[Pejzub]

I agree that it is a nonsense to give someone a cool toy and then take it away from them by a rule that makes no sense. But its not the first time GW would do this, we all know the inconsistencies they make all the time.

Apologies for the Tournament rule, was not aware of these two sentences.

[christophe]

17 hours ago, tea_wild_owl said:

the nexus is huge 😮. fortunately,  it is placed before any other terrain, even the normal one. anywhere on the battlefield, 3" from objectives and 6" from battlefield edge

Do you know by chance if it could fit on top of any sigmar terrain plateforms ? Thank you !!

[Dolomyte]

In events that I run I will allow the OBR player(s)  to tell me what piece they want to swap their terrain in for. 

[Scurvydog]

36 minutes ago, Pejzub said:

Here is the list I plan on playing

Petrifex Elite

Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis (500)
- General

Mortisan Soulmason (140)
-Godbone Armour
-Lore of Mortisians: Reinforced Battle Shields
Mortisan Soulreaper (120)
-Gotthizar Cartouche
-Lore of Mortisians: Empowered Naditite Weapons

20x Mortek Guard (260)
10x Mortek Guard (130)
10x Mortek Guard (130)

6x Necropolis Stalkers (400)
Gothizzar Harvester (200)

Shield Corps (120)

2000

That is the depressing part, the Praetorians are not even worth taking with Katakros. The +1 rend command ability is generelly more useful instead of reroll hit against charging units. -1 bravery aura hardly matters. The -3 to rend artifact is silly as well, If you run Praetorians without Katakros or the Arch Kavalos, what are you doing. You dont want to use both even, and certainly not another Kavalos liege, so who will use that -3 rend? a Wizard?... 

This in turn drastically reduces the use of Katakros. If he is not wounded, he deals no damage at all and hardly any movement. His +1 save is not relevant, as you can just run petrifex with basically only upsides. His +1 to hit is decent, but you can get that from the shrieker or from the helm of the ordained in a 12" bubble from any old Liege Kavalos, as long as you have a battalion for that extra artifact. 

So Katakros' +1 to hit aura is only half decent and can easily be replaced. His +1 save is pointless. He has no board presence or combat ability worth talking about if simply ignored. Then all he brings is the 4+ remove command points and his -1 to hit for any enemy unit as well as some healing. This is all quite decent, but is it really worth the points? Rule of cool yes, but otherwise not really I think.

Even worse is the Arch Kavalos and Vokmortian. The Arch Kavalos loses all his value due to the existence of helm of the ordained, and I doubt any setup will use him and another kavalos liege, that seems like a poor idea for 400 points. He has the +1 dmg on charge for 3 attacks and his reroll 1 to wound command, not that impressive. If petrifex I'd use the CP for 1 rend anyway, not like we lack things to use points on.

I'd like to hear reasons to use the new unique characters, as being locked into praetorians to me seems so terrible and the minimal upsides (arch kavalos and Vokmortian) compared to not being able to get traits and artefacts. I think Arkhan is really cool though and will probably pick up the model finally. Nagash is just overpriced nonsense, but good for a laugh I guess, having access to an entire spell lore mostly around buffing a non excisting army because he takes all the points.

 

[tea_wild_owl]

46 minutes ago, christophe said:

Do you know by chance if it could fit on top of any sigmar terrain plateforms ? Thank you !!

Sadly, I don't have one. But I can measure it later, but the nexus it's a square with squares at the edges (that cannot be removed)

Edited October 30, 2019 by tea_wild_owl

[Dolomyte]

37 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

 

So Katakros' +1 to hit aura is only half decent and can easily be replaced. His +1 save is pointless. He has no board presence or combat ability worth talking about if simply ignored. Then all he brings is the 4+ remove command points and his -1 to hit for any enemy unit as well as some healing. This is all quite decent, but is it really worth the points? Rule of cool yes, but otherwise not really I think.

 

You can still use the plus 1 to hit aura within petrifex. It’s only the plus 1 to saves that’s not used. So he is still wildly effective. Command point denial is a huge game changer against cp hungry armies like FEC and Slaanesh etc etc 

[Heijoshin]

Seeing as we can't use allies, are there perhaps any interesting Mercenary choices? Do people even take them usually (in a general sense, not specific to OBR)?

What do people think the reasoning is to not allow them when Nagash or Arkhan is taken? 
 

[Primes]

Another Question: Morghast vs. Stalkers for our "Hammer".

Everyone seems to be saying that Morghast are trash, but why?

When comparing a Unit of 4 Morghast and a Unit of 6 Stalkers for all but offence:

- Morghast are 3" faster and fly without the need for a RD Point

- Morghast can be way more tanky with an additional 5++ or more reliable when charging (3D6 > Reroll?) without the need for a RD Point

- They give a Bravery debuff (not worth much, but might help against IJ for example

- They have 6 Wounds a Piece vs. 4 Wounds for Stalkers, making them easier to heal, especially with their better defence

Offensively I would compare Halberds with Spirit Blades in Precision Stance:

... Haha never mind. Offensively Stalkers blow Morghasts out of the water, only redeeming quality might be that you get to attack with all 4 Morghast vs. maybe only 4 Stalkers (thanks to higher move and 2 " Reach for Morghasts)..which might also be offset by basesize.

Still: Might Morghast be useful in a role similar to Harassers or even Mini-Anvils with nice Output?

 

[Dolomyte]

@Scurvydog

to address your other points, vokmortian is fantastic due to his Battalion in feast of bones, letting him return a stalker or Morghast per turn. Bring back two and it is a net positive. 
 

zandtos is situationally useful as with plus 1 to hit from katakros your mostly already on 2s, so zandtos extra 2 of speed and able to reroll 1s to wound versus living takes a larger precedent. 

[XReN]

Does someone have a picture of Feast of Bones battalion organisation? In previous starter boxes those battalions were restricted to fixed model count, if that's the case with Volkmortian's battalion - it's not worth taking since Volkmortian is such a joke.

[relic456]

The Guerilla Miniature Games Youtube video shows it off and IIRC its specific to the OBR units in the box.

[El Syf]

15 minutes ago, Primes said:

Another Question: Morghast vs. Stalkers for our "Hammer".

Everyone seems to be saying that Morghast are trash, but why?

When comparing a Unit of 4 Morghast and a Unit of 6 Stalkers for all but offence:

- Morghast are 3" faster and fly without the need for a RD Point

- Morghast can be way more tanky with an additional 5++ or more reliable when charging (3D6 > Reroll?) without the need for a RD Point

- They give a Bravery debuff (not worth much, but might help against IJ for example

- They have 6 Wounds a Piece vs. 4 Wounds for Stalkers, making them easier to heal, especially with their better defence

Offensively I would compare Halberds with Spirit Blades in Precision Stance:

... Haha never mind. Offensively Stalkers blow Morghasts out of the water, only redeeming quality might be that you get to attack with all 4 Morghast vs. maybe only 4 Stalkers (thanks to higher move and 2 " Reach for Morghasts)..which might also be offset by basesize.

Still: Might Morghast be useful in a role similar to Harassers or even Mini-Anvils with nice Output?

 

Erm, I prefer the look of Morghasts does that count?

[Scurvydog]

5 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

@Scurvydog

to address your other points, vokmortian is fantastic due to his Battalion in feast of bones, letting him return a stalker or Morghast per turn. Bring back two and it is a net positive. 
 

zandtos is situationally useful as with plus 1 to hit from katakros your mostly already on 2s, so zandtos extra 2 of speed and able to reroll 1s to wound versus living takes a larger precedent. 

My point about the +1 hit from Katakros is that yes it is good, but the skrieker spell for 30 points can give a +1 to be hit 12" bubble and also the helm artifact on a standard liege kavalos provies +1 hit 12" bubble and as just about everything hits on a 3+, there is not really a need for more. a 200 point kavalos in petrifex will give all the +1 save for the legion, and the 12" +1 hit bubble is so good, that I do not think 300 points more for Katakros justifies a larger bubble of +1 hit, a 50/50 CP steal and a -1 hit debuff. I think most opponents can mostly ignore him and come out on top points wise. (I wont say he is terrible, just his main niche easily replaced by less than half the points cost).

A Liege Kavalos gives 2 CP and the +1 attack command. Katakros already gives 1+d3 points and also has the +1 attack, so taking Zandtos along with Katakros will most likely just be overkill in CP and also overlap in command abilities and now you have 720 points of characters and nobody yet to give an artifact and no wizards, that does not seem efficient sadly.

We will have to see with the Vokmortian battalion, usually these boxed battalions are not allowed in matched play.

[XReN]

8 minutes ago, relic456 said:

The Guerilla Miniature Games Youtube video shows it off and IIRC its specific to the OBR units in the box.

Good call, that might be a redeeming factor for Volkmortian

[relic456]

6 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

We will have to see with the Vokmortian battalion, usually these boxed battalions are not allowed in matched play.

With the new FAQ (see below) I think it's now allowed.  Just need someone to confirm if the points for the battalion are listed as a Pitched Battle profile.

[choocheelo]

18 minutes ago, Primes said:

Another Question: Morghast vs. Stalkers for our "Hammer".

Everyone seems to be saying that Morghast are trash, but why?

When comparing a Unit of 4 Morghast and a Unit of 6 Stalkers for all but offence:

- Morghast are 3" faster and fly without the need for a RD Point

- Morghast can be way more tanky with an additional 5++ or more reliable when charging (3D6 > Reroll?) without the need for a RD Point

- They give a Bravery debuff (not worth much, but might help against IJ for example

- They have 6 Wounds a Piece vs. 4 Wounds for Stalkers, making them easier to heal, especially with their better defence

Offensively I would compare Halberds with Spirit Blades in Precision Stance:

... Haha never mind. Offensively Stalkers blow Morghasts out of the water, only redeeming quality might be that you get to attack with all 4 Morghast vs. maybe only 4 Stalkers (thanks to higher move and 2 " Reach for Morghasts)..which might also be offset by basesize.

Still: Might Morghast be useful in a role similar to Harassers or even Mini-Anvils with nice Output?

 

The problem is that Stalkers have 1 battalion with morghast without 5++, morghast  archai with immotris. And u need one to take +1 to hit bubble from helm in any sub-faction.

Anyone can do math harbringers+stalkers vs. archai + immortis guard?

[relic456]

2 minutes ago, choocheelo said:

Anyone can do math harbringers+stalkers vs. archai + immortis guard?

Morghast Harbingers and Morghast Archai have the same offensive stats now, so you'd just be comparing Stalkers vs Immortis Guard and Stalkers definitely do more damage.

[Dolomyte]

@Scurvydog

you are selling KitKat short, he 5050 blocks command points, he gives you 4 not 1 plus d3, he heals 3 units 3 wounds per turn, he can give plus 1 to hit in a 36 inch bubble, he gives plus 1 attacks within 12 of him to someone, and minus 1 to hit on a deathstar army is amazingly powerful. Or your 700 point unit of berserkers is now 25 percent less damage output.