The Rumour Thread

[novakai]

10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Stuff like spider riders, squig herd, squig hoppers, bounderz, and grots have literally not seen a single drop since the book released (with bounderz and grots actually going up). Its not like they lowered the points and are scared to drop them any further, they just never even tried.

Point drop unless extreme would not  make a difference for those unit, it wouldn’t increase their win rate or give you the extra unit that would make the difference in your list

[Ganigumo]

6 minutes ago, novakai said:

Point drop unless extreme would not  make a difference for those unit, it wouldn’t increase their win rate or give you the extra unit that would make the difference in your list

In a spiderfang list I've played before a 10 point drop to spider riders translates into a 70 point reduction in the list (the list had 35 spider riders), which is enough to squeeze something else in, or upgrade something that's already in the list.
10 points off grots could easily add up to 50-70 points, across the edition change they went from 130(120 with discount) to 150, which was like a 200 point increase in a grot heavy list, sure most things did go up, but this was actually one of the heftiest increases in the entire game, to a faction, and unit, that got nerfed by rules changes.
Small increases or decreases to units that are taken in multiples really adds up in listbuilding, and its not something thats even been tried with gitz, on the units that matter. 
small increases or decreases on units that you only take 1-2 of make no difference.

[novakai]

15 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

In a spiderfang list I've played before a 10 point drop to spider riders translates into a 70 point reduction in the list (the list had 35 spider riders), which is enough to squeeze something else in, or upgrade something that's already in the list.
10 points off grots could easily add up to 50-70 points, across the edition change they went from 130(120 with discount) to 150, which was like a 200 point increase in a grot heavy list, sure most things did go up, but this was actually one of the heftiest increases in the entire game, to a faction, and unit, that got nerfed by rules changes.
Small increases or decreases to units that are taken in multiples really adds up in listbuilding, and its not something thats even been tried with gitz, on the units that matter. 
small increases or decreases on units that you only take 1-2 of make no difference.

Would that really win you more games? 
nothing significantly is going to matter until a new tome comes out.

making thing cheaper now only causes a rubberband effect when they have to be priced back to normal and people list shot up more points. Especially now with every getting more of an increase then a decrease. 
 

edit: spider rider are already really cheap, if the book makes them better they are not likely to get cheaper and may even get an increase, it would ****** your current list even more.

Edited June 17, 2022 by novakai

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

I don't know, maybe we just misinterpreted what the point of the season was? Like we saw the rules for Galletian Veterans and thought 'oh, they're previewing all this stuff to buff hordes so this season must be about hordes', but it was all a bait and switch. All those rules were added on in a desperate attempt to keep hordes relevant. The only reason you have fight in two ranks and count as extra models is because of how ridiculously powerful bounty hunters are going to be and how much of a liability troops are due to tactics/missions. 

Yeah I call misinterpretation.

Everyone saw “Infantry focus” and assumed hordes because that’s the older mindset of how GW liked it’s infantry(especially in 2.0) buuuut that article was pretty clear this is an elite infantry battle. 
 

“Veteran” infantry, pictures of only hulking big bois, Bonds of Battle benefitting mostly 32mm and bigger bases, lore talking about seasoned survivors.

It’s kinda going along with 3.0’s heavier skirmish focus as a whole like the recent Skaven rules making self-heal units instead of overwhelming swarms like before.

And now even Deadwalkers look better in MSU units for capturing points.(maybe that’s why zombies are the last real swarm unit we’ve had. Dead concept that’s just shuffling along 😛)

 

I am looking forward to how wild this will be with multiple ways to ruin somebody’s force. Feels like in the growling tunnels of Gallet nobody is safe.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Gailon]

There is a lot of rock paper scissors lizard spock that could emerge from this GHB. 

Veterans can count as 3 on an objective and be the only units that can controls some objectives. They can also fight in two ranks now. So let's bust those units of 10 sequitors or 30 vulkites etc. 

But Bounty Hunters absolutely obliterate veterans. High volume single damage attacks are out there, and all that damage is doubled. Even something rarely seen like Saurus Knights is scary if it's in Bounty Hunter and attacking a veteran. 

So, ok, don't run big blocks of veterans. Small mobile units will be pretty good. Tree revenants and vanguard hunters and 10 teleporting skinks can go nab an objective, or threaten to nab one at anytime. If they get killed by a Bounty Hunters hammer that's great because it's a huge waste of damage. No one will want to charge 10 skinks with 6 fulminators. 

So those elite bounty hunter units may need to be a bit smaller to be more flexible. 

[I wish the realm command ability wasn't limited to wounds characteristics of 4 or less. It would be very interesting if things like fulminators or gore gruntas would be risking strike last if they charged into veterans)

And all of this is layered on top of just going with a Battle Regiment and choose first turn. 

My big worry is that this rock paper scissors may not show up much on that table and in battles, and could end up being in army construction. Rather than playing a game where I am trying to maneuver my best matchups around and counter certain units with other units, we may just show up and have a feeling of "oh, you brought that type of list? I can't beat that list." I am pretty interested to see how it plays out. Personally I feel like MSU may be a lot more viable as the risk of super high damage hammers is real, and you don't want to give your opponent a high wound target to chew into. 

[KingBrodd]

Everytime a GHB, Tome Celestial or rules come out...

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

9 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

Everytime a GHB, Tome Celestial or rules come out...

Man, I'm just sitting over here waiting for the Sylvaneth Path to Glory rules!

[ÞórarinnSig]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

Just to check so I'm not missing something. For veteran units, are the pros:

- Can make them count as 3 models each when in a particular battalion *

- Can benefit from the new command ability if there are 10+ models in the unit *

- Can contest the special objective 

The cons for these units:

- Can be targeted by +1 damage from units in a particular battalion *

- Some battleplans give out extra victory points when a player kills their opponent's veteran units *

* not guaranteed every game, depending on lists/units. 

The penalties do seem harsher for taking these units. In the past, taking a unit of 30 or 40 would capture an objectives on numbers alone - they would only need to count as 3 for objectives when against large units themselves, so the new battalion doesn't really help these units. On the other hand, +1 damage against these units probably secures the unit's death and they'll count for 0 then. 

The command abilities costs a command point and may not even happen, as well as needing 10 or more models in the unit, so it's not something to rely on. 

Contesting the special objective is important, but as there's only one of these objectives at a time, you're better off just having a single unit to chase these. 

In all honesty, I think this puts me off taking battleline units and I don't really see how it encourages hordes.

If someone could give me a good reason otherwise, I'd love to hear it - I could well be missing something.

Ive been thinking the exact same things. But I also have one more fear, currently Seraphon are one of the strongest armies. Unless I´m missing something they get all the upsides but the downsides are going to be 0 most of the time for them due to the Coalesced trait, -1 damage. 

32mm bases, lots of attacks on saurus. Skinks being able to cap anything with counting as 3.

Am I missing something or are we entering the season of the Lizard?

Edited June 17, 2022 by ÞórarinnSig

[Ragest]

18 minutes ago, ÞórarinnSig said:

Ive been thinking the exact same things. But I also have one more fear, currently Seraphon are one of the strongest armies. Unless I´m missing something they get all the upsides but the downsides are going to be 0 most of the time for them due to the Coalesced trait, -1 damage. 

32mm bases, lots of attacks on saurus. Skinks being able to cap anything with counting as 3.

Am I missing something or are we entering the season of the Lizard?

The season of the lizard is every season, but it's rumoured that they are going to lose that trait

[yukishiro1]

7 hours ago, Flippy said:

Will you actually make any measurement? For me the rule is bases touching or almost touching, if you can't get them together due to the models' shapes and that is good enough.

Yeah, but that isn't the rule. And it's in a competitive ruleset designed for competitive play so of course people are going to use the real rule, not an approximation of the rule that's less generous to themselves. 

 

[yukishiro1]

Looks less like Galletian Veterans and more like Galletian Cannon Fodder TBH. Why take a big unit of elite GVs when they're hugely vulnerable and you could just take a cheap 10-man unit of ****** that still counts as 30 on an objective and that nobody is going to want to commit a Bounty Hunter to killing because it'll just be ridiculous overkill?

The Bounty Hunters bat is a big design mistake, the only redeeming feature of which is that it is *so* pushed that it may finally be a bat good enough to stop people taking 1-drops. But that's not a great redeeming feature. Why should veterans take twice as much damage as non-veterans? It's beyond silly both from a design point of view and from a "this makes sense within the world we've created" point of view. 

Veteran Hearthguard Berzerkers taking twice as much damage as non-Veteran Hearthguard Berzerkers...whoever came up with that one should have been sent back to the drawing board.

Edited June 17, 2022 by yukishiro1

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I was thinking about what I should do as a Gravelords player, and the incentive structure is pretty weird. I'm going avoid having any of my elite infantry be battleline, because it just makes them too susceptible to Bounty Hunters. Big Skeleton blobs are out, because they can't withstand the damage of +1 damage skirmishers. MSU zombies are in, because 20 zombies counting as 60 on objectives are absurd, and they die to a stiff breeze anyway. Also, shoutouts to Direwolves for being on a cavalry base but getting to fight in 2 ranks anyway because they are not mounted. Sorry, Blood Knights and Black Knights, better luck next time.

Bloodknights win big time. Putting them in the Veteran Hunter’s they’re 3 damage in the charge into any enemy unit that’s the new keyword. Galletian Veteran or whatever. So for some armies that’s huge like Witch Aelves, Ogors, Fyreslayers, Stormcast Eternals. Even Brutes are always Battleline you’d be demolishing Brutes. ArdBoyz cut down like chaff, blobs of savage Orruks. 
 

Take you down a hero first things first like a support hero if you’re playing Kastelei and suddenly you’re at 4 damage apiece on the charge into GV units. Troggoths would get deleted. Do the same thing to Graveguard and they’re at 3 damage apiece fighting twice with a Necromancer at +1 attack with a vampire lord. Nothing can withstand that. 

[yukishiro1]

You don't need 4 damage into GV tho, nobody is going to take those big blocks where that'd be an issue. Bounty Hunters may be so good it actually makes itself extinct just because nobody will take anything valuable enough to be worth Bounty Hunting. Which is not good design because it means stuff comes down to list vs list. It isn't fun to show up to a table and compare lists and be like "oh well you took the scissors battalion to my paper list, sucks to be me" or "well I took the scissors bat but you're rock." Those sort of interactions ought to impact tactics within the game, not be something external to the game that you decide beforehand and then reveal to see who faked the other out better. 

 

 

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

and from a "this makes sense within the world we've created" point of view. 

Veteran Hearthguard Berzerkers taking twice as much damage as non-Veteran Hearthguard Berzerkers...whoever came up with that one should have been sent back to the drawing board.

Tbf, we haven’t gotten the actual lore on that battalion yet.

With them actually called “Headhunters” that target the strongest my guess is they’re supposed to be more tribal in nature and using venom weapons from the local giant insects & spiders since poison weapons in-game increase damage or cause mortal wounds like with the spidergrots.

With how sacred those giant insects usually are to tribes that Spidergrots see the largest as gods it’s likely “only use on a strong victim” handwave like with the Bonesplitterz hunting the mightest beasts to absorb their power.(favorite bit there is those swimming after the 12-headed megalodon god-beast to try and kill it. What mad lads)

Edited June 17, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[willange]

Man I really really hate bounty hunters...  I was so excited to be able to finally kinda use my Blood Warriors, or Bloodreavers, or Bestigors again since they could fight in two ranks... But taking double-damage from whatever three troop units get put in hunters is gonna suuuuuuck.  You can put cav in there and wipe em out.  You can put trolls or dragon ogors in there and wipe 'em out.  You can even put other GV in there and STILL wipe 'em out.... I mean, I guess my Bestigors can be GV Bounty Hunters, but I'm seriously wondering if Bounty Hunters doesn't make this more of a liability than a benefit.

EDIT:  It also sucks that there's no way to opt out of being GV.  It makes "tankier" battleline non-viable imo.

Edited June 17, 2022 by willange

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

You don't need 4 damage into GV tho, nobody is going to take those big blocks where that'd be an issue. Bounty Hunters may be so good it actually makes itself extinct just because nobody will take anything valuable enough to be worth Bounty Hunting. Which is not good design because it means stuff comes down to list vs list. It isn't fun to show up to a table and compare lists and be like "oh well you took the scissors battalion to my paper list, sucks to be me" or "well I took the scissors bat but you're rock." Those sort of interactions ought to impact tactics within the game, not be something external to the game that you decide beforehand and then reveal to see who faked the other out better. 

In my opinion, slapping cheap skirmishers into Bounty Hunters is the way to go. Dedicated hammer units don't need the damage boost against Veterans, but by giving it to a bunch of cheap, fast stuff you could potentially have 5+ hammers in your list when it comes to fighting Veteran units.

I'm not a fan of gilding the lily by giving a hard-hittig unit like Grave Guard even more punch. They already have the ability to kill everything in the game with a buff or two and their problem is always getting into the target to do so. Just turn all your mobile chaff into hammers instead, tnat seems like it would be worth going high drops for.

[Ganigumo]

Just now, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In my opinion, slapping cheap skirmishers into Bounty Hunters is the way to go. Dedicated hammer units don't need the damage boost against Veterans, but by giving it to a bunch of cheap, fast stuff you could potentially have 5+ hammers in your list when it comes to fighting Veteran units.

I'm not a fan of gilding the lily by giving a hard-hittig unit like Grave Guard even more punch. They already have the ability to kill everything in the game with a buff or two and their problem is always getting into the target to do so. Just turn all your mobile chaff into hammers instead, tnat seems like it would be worth going high drops for.

Dedicated hammers in weak books appreciate the boost,. Stuff like troggoths, squigs, bloodletters, skullcrushers, etc... A bunch of low tier armies really struggle with output, and its a big part of why they're so bad in 3.0. You need good damage to reliably score some of the BT, won't help against non-infantry stuff though.
It could be good in nurgle as well. Nurgle's output isn't top tier, so throwing some blightkings/blightlords in there could be good.

[Flippy]

2 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Yeah, but that isn't the rule. And it's in a competitive ruleset designed for competitive play so of course people are going to use the real rule, not an approximation of the rule that's less generous to themselves. 

 

So I suspect; my point was that the difference between my rule and the rule will make actual difference in fringe cases only. People will not measure unless it really matters.

[willange]

I guess  continuing my point a little because I just got done with another quick meeting.  I'm seriously wondering if this actually will NOT be the "battleline" year.  Like troops, sure maybe.  Somewhat less monster-focused?  Sure, maybe.  But, I'm really struggling to find one of my 10 or so factions where I'm feeling excited about my battleline. 

Obviously, I could just be over-thinking it and/or overreacting, but cheap, chaffy battleline with minimal point-investment seems to be the way to use GV to me.

[Vastus]

Yeah, being (non-mounted) battleline seems more like a detriment right now. You want your battleline to be some cheap fodder to score some of the BT's I guess, but otherwise they don't benefit at all. The triple scoring is there as an option, but even that you'd rather put on your cheap MSU, since larger units will struggle to last versus the bounty hunters.

That or you need a way to reduce damage. Praise the Krulghast, blessed be his torturous devices.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Vastus

[Dingding123]

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the Bounty Hunter battalion is banned at events and it isn't even a matter of whether it breaks the game lol.  Literally no one seems to like the new bat whatsoever.  It's definitely a head-scratcher alongside omitting Hunters of the Heartlands as to how infantry are supposed to fight anything anymore!

[Ravinsild]

Man. I have no idea what to do now. Everyone is saying taking hordes is a terrible idea. I wanted a grinding attrition army that would create long grueling games fighting over objectives and so forth. 

It seems that’s not going to happen with additional damage to what would be the battleline I would be using due to the headhunters battalion. So suddenly 80 zombies seems like they get deleted right quick. 

I’m thinking as I’m going Kastelei 3 sets of 10 wolves or something.

Then again if the Battletome battle tactics are still valid then one could play into it via callous overlord where you pick a summonable unit and score it if it was destroyed that turn. So maybe expecting a block of 40 skeletons or hell even 20-30 skeletons and expecting them to die yoy still score points. Then you can counter attack with your own bounty hunters and crush a bunch of their units hopefully adding +1 to your roll and there’s a battle tactics for if you get a 5+ to resurrect a unit you get a point.
 

Or maybe it would be the rise of the full Bloodknights list 🤷‍♂️ (For Kastelei idk what the other legions are supposed to do) 

[yukishiro1]

The lists to beat are going to be ones that can complete 5 BTs without needing any GV to do it, IMO. Especially lists that can start with no or limited GV but bring them in later if needed. E.g. a certain kind of BoC list that takes say Dragon Ogors and Enlightened on Discs, neither of which are GV, but that can bring in GV as needed using the summoning engine depending on the mission and the matchup. Nurgle Oops All Flies lists are another example I guess, though the summoning potential in that list is much less and plaguebearers aren't nearly as attractive a GV to bring in as a summon as a lot of the BoC stuff. 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by yukishiro1

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

The lists to beat are going to be ones that can complete 5 BTs without needing any GV to do it, IMO. Especially lists that can start with no or limited GV but bring them in later if needed. E.g. a certain kind of BoC list that takes say Dragon Ogors and Enlightened on Discs, neither of which are GV, but that can bring in GV as needed using the summoning engine depending on the mission and the matchup. Nurgle Oops All Flies lists are another example I guess, though the summoning potential in that list is much less and plaguebearers aren't nearly as attractive a GV to bring in as a summon as a lot of the BoC stuff. 

 

Seems like Soulblight Gravelords armies like Kastelei who can go full blood knights but still drag zombies and skeletons from the grave could be incredibly strong if that’s the case. Avengorii Dynasty too with some hidden GV skeletons or zombies or even dire wolves. 

[yukishiro1]

Bounty Hunters is a super easy fix, just make it only work on stuff taken in the counts-as-3 bat. Then it admittedly does become a true game of battalion chicken, but that's ok because you have to opt into it to play it. If you want GV that aren't super vulnerable you can have that, if you want to go for broke with the counts-as-3 thing and chance it on whether someone picks the counter batallion, you can risk it for the biscuit. But you're not shut out of taking the whole infantry thing seriously because in fact for some bizarre reason veteran units are far squishier than non-veteran ones. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by yukishiro1