AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[MothmanDraws]

Right my joke posts about "what if slaanesh 2.0 wasnt pointed for 3.0" came true, therefore lets make another joke prediction 

 

-The main FAQ update is just 3 notes on spells like one we saw

-depravity summoning units all go up by 2-3 DP each

-Sigvald locked to pretenders

-Lurid haze TP cannot outflank Monsters

-Twinsouls have range adjusted to 1"

 

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, MothmanDraws said:

Right my joke posts about "what if slaanesh 2.0 wasnt pointed for 3.0" came true, therefore lets make another joke prediction 

 

-The main FAQ update is just 3 notes on spells like one we saw

-depravity summoning units all go up by 2-3 DP each

-Sigvald locked to pretenders

-Lurid haze TP cannot outflank Monsters

-Twinsouls have range adjusted to 1"

 

If these come true, I hope the mods ban you so you can't spread any more of these cursed predictions

[azdimy]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

Some insights into our points:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/25/designers-notes-how-points-changes-make-the-new-edition-more-balanced-than-ever/#utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=AoS&utm_content=AoSPearson25June21

As expected, points are so high due to summoning - it does sound like we see no changes in the FAQ.

GW is just doubling down in their approach of summoning allegiance abilities paid for into the unit cost within the faction and unfortunately the Slaanesh players are the one suffering for it

[azdimy]

8 minutes ago, MothmanDraws said:

Right my joke posts about "what if slaanesh 2.0 wasnt pointed for 3.0" came true, therefore lets make another joke prediction 

 

-The main FAQ update is just 3 notes on spells like one we saw

-depravity summoning units all go up by 2-3 DP each

-Sigvald locked to pretenders

-Lurid haze TP cannot outflank Monsters

-Twinsouls have range adjusted to 1"

 

Are you a rules writer? If so make it stop please. The community is already on it s knees and has been for a while now

[Lurynsar]

9 hours ago, Enoby said:

I agree that Slickblades could do with a decrease - I think they were nicely balanced at 200. At 230 they struggle to make up their points in relation to how squishy they are. 

Personally, playing a few games with them, I do think Painbringers should come down a little (probably to original points) simply because they need LoP tax to make them battleline. They're definitely designed to be "good" battleline with how tanky but not particularly killy they are (and I don't think I ever see them taken outside of battleline), so the extra cost of the LoP should be factored in. The reason I think they could come down a little is just because of their lack of wounds for their cost - they're great in melee but suffer heavily to magic and shooting, and because you only get 10 wounds for 160 points and their job is to tank, they can be cleared up very easily for their elite cost in ways you often can't avoid. That said, I'll keep running games with them.

I'm interested to learn how the crusha and sphinx go for you - they're very cheap and they don't seem half bad. 

Totally agree with the Slickblades. At 200 I might have felt better about them. But at basically 100 points more than Hellstriders, neither their output or their survivability are worth the mark up. They are just too costly it seems at 230.

I don't know if 150 or 160 makes a difference for Painbringers, but I would personally agree on the Lord of Pain. He isn't bad, but hes boring and often times just there. Painbringers moving to unconditional Battleline would make me very happy, and honestly wouldn't break anything. Leave Twinsouls as conditional and the LoP still has a place if you want to go heavy into them (or need them as your 2nd/3rd Battleline in a different style list) That said as a whole I don't really think Painbringers are overcosted at 160, and they have felt worth the inclusion every game. Seeing other armies Battleline also go up makes it not sting much, so its possible I just don't weigh 10 points as much as you, which I probably should due how tight we can be on points.

I am super curious about the Monsters, so hopefully I will get 2 games in later today with them and have some thoughts. At 205 for the pair they are very cheap, and as such I have my doubts on them. But maybe somehow they skipped through the points craze and are just really solid. We will see.
 

50 minutes ago, Sigmarusvult said:

So it looks like the new points reflect the op summoning that we got... In a previous edition 😂.

Seriously if they can't balance this mechanic then please GW, just remove it and point this army accordingly, I am sure it would make everyone happier, including you GW.

I've never understood why summoning had to be such a biggy in a Slaanesh army 🤔, it's not even a lore thing. I'd rather use depravity points in a similar way than bloodtithe, it's way more fun and interesting IMHO. 

I disagree strongly. While Summoning might not be Slaanesh's "thing" (and we don't know that it isn't AoS, while having remnants of the Old World, is its own endeavor and could make Summoning a story part of Slaanesh as we go further into the lore) I truly think it's a fun mechanic, and a unique enough way to make Slaanesh slightly different than the other God forces. As someone who has dabbled in Blood Tithe points in both 40K Daemonkin and Blades of Khorne, it's really not that much fun. There is always a few choices you either save for, or 1 you use "just because it's there" and the rest aren't going to be as impactful. This isn't even GWs fault, there will almost always be a best choice when options exist for some sort of resource, and eventually math and play testing will work it out. Summoning is similar, but there are times where the board state actually effects summons more than a static list of buffs ever could.

For me Summoning continues to be a fun, and interesting part of Hedonites. Also at this point we are seeing it as Slaanesh's "thing" because its been in virtually every variant of Slaanesh we have had in AoS, so clearly this is a design point of the faction and will not be changing.

At the end of the day I still believe not enough players have tested out 3rd for any serious length of time (which is fair, game isn't out until next weekend) and are still feeling down from an overpowered, downright broken Battletome that was nerfed. We won't ever be going back to that power level (intentionally), and if you feel the army is bad because of that then you likely want to jump ship now, as future updates are likely to make you even more upset as we remain somewhat static. If you are here because you love Slaanesh, the models, the lore and want to play games with them, I assure you with practice, and some good skills you will be able to enjoy Slaanesh this edition. If you are looking for easy wins, without much thought or practice then there are better competitive options out there, and I suspect Slaanesh will not be for you. This is not a slight to anyone who has discontent with some of the changes (I myself harbour a small number even after practice games), but we as a community need to work past it. Rehashing how bad something is (except Slaangors!) won't help us grow, and the sad truth is GW doesn't much listen to whining. We know there are some bad things, and we should continue to remind GW of them when we can, but we need to work together to find the good parts, because there are some, I promise.

[Carnith]

I'm about to just create what Slaanesh subfactions should be at this point. The 3 big factions aren't really a thing anymore in lore, so why not rename them to be more thematic and add subfactions. 

Sigvald's faction should buff painbringers, make them mirrorguard. Either some reroll to hits or some bonus while near Sigvald. 

Glutos could have a faction for spell casting. Some bonus when Glutos kills a unit to give bonuses out to casters as he eats? 

Syll'esske could be the mix faction with allowing Twinsouls to count as mortal and daemon either depending on the phase, or expand the reach of the reroll aura ala kurnoth hunters and command ability range. 

I'd also like to see a Twins Subfaction. Something that gives buffs when both are on the field? 

Leave Lurid haze as it, bake in some of the invader rules. 

Pretenders gets an amazing buff... their leader? Always in Finest Hour (@Mothmandraws suggestion). Honestly, lore about becoming new Slaanesh works, or simply that they are deluded by Slaanesh into trying to become the new Slaanesh and therefore empowering chained slaanesh. It's meant to be the mega hero faction, so let it. 

Seeker host could stay the same, maybe some changes. Buffs seeker based units. 

 

My idea is to give some bonus to a unit in the army to help give some guidance to the player, leaving lurid haze as a catch all. 

The idea is that these subfactions each give some general ability, some CT, some artifact, and either a CA or bonus spell. 

I think with unit leaders giving out CAs, you can have more room for Hero Specific CAs needed. 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Carnith

[Starfyre]

15 hours ago, Lurynsar said:

3) The Shardspeaker is amazing. Dies to a swiff breeze, and is a little reliant on dice rolls (spells and her 3+ ability), but she is worth the dice and her cost at 150 is actually not an issue, because it feels so cheap.

4) I cannot make Slickblades worth almost a quarter of my list. At 230 points for 5, they just don't do enough for their cost. I hope someone can unlock some tech to make them worth it, but for me they are done for now.

5) I am super hot and cold on Blissbarbs. I was using them poorly, and hated them. Used them better (and cheated for 2 games oops!) and they were great. Used them better, and didn't cheat and they were solid a few games and awful a few others. For now they stay so I can see if its a me or a them issue.

 

Really insightful posts, thanks. Makes me feel better about potentially starting this army! 

I had a couple of questions if you don't mind?

1) Do you feel the Twin Souls need the Shardspeaker to be effective? I'd like to use the Epitome instead, which is obviously a fair bit more points

2) Have you tried Blissbarb seekers? I'm wondering if they might be better than either the Slickblades or the Blissbarb archers?

--

On a different note, regarding the comments above about the Exalted chariot, the Flaming Weapons spell can get her 9 Piercing Claw attacks to Damage 2. Then Hunter of Godbeasts to make it Damage 3 against Monsters, and since that's Pretenders and if she were general, could also have Strength of Godhood to make one of those hits be Damage 4 against Monsters I guess, or Damage 3 against something else (without Hunter of Godbeasts). Assuming I'm reading it right... I like the fact that Sliverslash could make it 10 attacks, or just take Armour if Destiny to keep it a bit more protected. Oh yeah, and extra attacks from Soulscent.

[Lurynsar]

2 minutes ago, Starfyre said:

I had a couple of questions if you don't mind?

1) Do you feel the Twin Souls need the Shardspeaker to be effective? I'd like to use the Epitome instead, which is obviously a fair bit more points

2) Have you tried Blissbarb seekers? I'm wondering if they might be better than either the Slickblades or the Blissbarb archers?

I do not feel they need her. I lost her several times early enough that the Twinsouls had to go it alone, and they were still solid. Obviously buffed anything is better, but I felt they were strong choices either way. The only negative I can say about the Twinsouls is the lack of Rend (combined with the ease of +1 to saves) is sometimes annoying. Not always, but when it is, it really sucks.

I have not yet tried Blissbarb Seekers, as I continue to try out the Blissbarbs as my ranged option. Depending on my experiences with them and Hellstriders, I have a list in mind to try two units in place of Blissbarbs and other options. If/when I get to that list I will certainly report back any findings.

[Enoby]

19 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

don't know if 150 or 160 makes a difference for Painbringers, but I would personally agree on the Lord of Pain. He isn't bad, but hes boring and often times just there. Painbringers moving to unconditional Battleline would make me very happy, and honestly wouldn't break anything. Leave Twinsouls as conditional and the LoP still has a place if you want to go heavy into them (or need them as your 2nd/3rd Battleline in a different style list) That said as a whole I don't really think Painbringers are overcosted at 160, and they have felt worth the inclusion every game. Seeing other armies Battleline also go up makes it not sting much, so its possible I just don't weigh 10 points as much as you, which I probably should due how tight we can be on points

To be fair, this may well be because I tried to build two lists that were 5 points over and they had painbringers in  I can't say it would boost us meaningfully, but it'd let a couple of more lists be usable. 

24 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

*summoning snip*

I do agree that our summoning is, gameplay wise, very fun - especially for how toolboxy the daemons are. On the other hand, I definitely understand the problem that strong summoning feels rather disconnected from our lore - for example, our summoning is incredibly strong and much better than Tzeentch's, but lore wise we're no better at Tzeentch than summoning. 

Gameplay wise, our summoning is a unique asset, but theme wise it doesn't feel like it fits.

36 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

Rehashing how bad something is (except Slaangors!) won't help us grow

I think this is very important - at the end of the day, no matter how bad we may or may not be, being upset about it will fix nothing. 

Talking to GW may help, but until they do something we can only improve ourselves. Looking at some battle reports and my own games, my initial reaction was too negative and while I think we still have issues, I think we have play and a lot of ways to experiment. At the end of the day, we're playing a hard army in an edition that has changed a lot.

[TimeToWaste85]

1 hour ago, azdimy said:

Are you a rules writer? If so make it stop please. The community is already on it s knees and has been for a while now

Begging for mercy or head-bobbing to cultivate favor?

in a Slaaneshi thread, I feel like this is a fair question. 

[Nagashfan]

1 hour ago, MothmanDraws said:

Right my joke posts about "what if slaanesh 2.0 wasnt pointed for 3.0" came true, therefore lets make another joke prediction 

 

-The main FAQ update is just 3 notes on spells like one we saw

-depravity summoning units all go up by 2-3 DP each

-Sigvald locked to pretenders

-Lurid haze TP cannot outflank Monsters

-Twinsouls have range adjusted to 1"

 

Oh man!!! I would not be surprised if the DP going up joke happens

[AngryPanda]

“We welcome your thoughts on the new points values, so please do not hesitate to send them in. The feedback that is particularly useful for us is that which focuses on powerful synergies and rules interactions between units that seem to have not been accounted for. Rest assured, we look at every bit of feedback that is submitted and greatly appreciate everyone who takes the time to do so.”

I'm sure as GW posted this, they were looking at the survey we sent them and couldn’t hold themselves back from laughing. 
 

On another note, how do you guys think we do against other armies, aside from Lumanith (who are in a category of their own)? I actually think we match up pretty competitively against most armies, excluding a few that are top tier. 

[Lurynsar]

37 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

On another note, how do you guys think we do against other armies, aside from Lumanith (who are in a category of their own)? I actually think we match up pretty competitively against most armies, excluding a few that are top tier. 

Against a meta Lumineth build, I don't know how well we will do. Against most Lumineth builds I see, I feel we will have play for sure. Kharadron, and Daughters were hard matchups, and I feel more comfortable now into Daughters, and about the same into Kharadrons. So we haven't gotten worse that way. Against everything else I feel we are decent or better into. Which means with strong generalship, I feel we have game in a lot of matchups, which is a good sign. Of course we need real tournament data (and good players) to see how true that holds up.

[Apinecone]

2 hours ago, Starfyre said:

On a different note, regarding the comments above about the Exalted chariot, the Flaming Weapons spell can get her 9 Piercing Claw attacks to Damage 2. Then Hunter of Godbeasts to make it Damage 3 against Monsters, and since that's Pretenders and if she were general, could also have Strength of Godhood to make one of those hits be Damage 4 against Monsters I guess, or Damage 3 against something else (without Hunter of Godbeasts). Assuming I'm reading it right... I like the fact that Sliverslash could make it 10 attacks, or just take Armour if Destiny to keep it a bit more protected. Oh yeah, and extra attacks from Soulscent.

The exalted chariot with flaming weapon maths wise is one of our best heroes in terms of damage.  Not had a chance to try it on the table but it seems promising and the armour destiny would be really good for making it far sturdier.  I have two lists using it I plan to test out when I get a chance.

 

On the topic of slickblades have people checked the maths on them or is it just the initial sadness of going from 200pts to 230?  As while I have only done the quick odds rather than anything in-depth, they still compare very well with our other units from what I see.  They are not much more fragile than hellstiders, as while they have a worse save they bring in more wounds per point and are a whole lot sturdier than twinsouls in aggressive form.  Their damage is also a lot better than that of hellstiders point for point, clawstiders even with the charge are worse against all targets.  The only units that can out preform them are twinsouls with their rerolls (though slickblades do win out against 2+ and 3+ saves) and the dread pageant (best points to damage we have).  Unless my maths is really off, while the 30pt jump sucks if they are still a good unit.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Apinecone

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, Apinecone said:

The exalted chariot with flaming weapon maths wise is one of our best heroes in terms of damage.  Not had a chance to try it on the table but it seems promising and the armour destiny would be really good for making it far sturdier.  I have two lists using it I plan to test out when I get a chance.

I really want to try the chariot again, but every time I do, they roll 1s on both of their MW abilities, fail every wound, die immediately, and then snap off their base for good measure

2 hours ago, Apinecone said:

On the topic of slickblades have people checked the maths on them or is it just the initial sadness of going from 200pts to 230?  As while I have only done the quick odds rather than anything in-depth, they still compare very well with our other units from what I see.  They are not much more fragile than hellstiders, as while they have a worse save they bring in more wounds per point and are a whole lot sturdier than twinsouls in aggressive form.  Their damage is also a lot better than that of hellstiders point for point, clawstiders even with the charge are worse against all targets.  The only units that can out preform them are twinsouls with their rerolls (though slickblades do win out against 2+ and 3+ saves) and the dread pageant (best points to damage we have).  Unless my maths is really off, while the 30pt jump sucks if they are still a good unit.

At least in my experience, they're good but they're very squishy to concentrated attacks and you need to save a CP for battleshock immunity as a failed check is a high cost. I don't think they're awful by any means, but I think they do struggle to keep alive. However, I still think you could make a good list with them - hellstriders as battleline, maybe an exalted chariot with that spell, and definitely Syll'Esske (who is is still a mounted character funnily enough), and you could have a fun little cavalry list

[Sigmarusvult]

2 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

 

I disagree strongly. While Summoning might not be Slaanesh's "thing" (and we don't know that it isn't AoS, while having remnants of the Old World, is its own endeavor and could make Summoning a story part of Slaanesh as we go further into the lore)... 
 

That's fair, I used to play Blades of Khorne and while bloodtithe was fun for me - it offers lots of tricks - you still have the option to summon instead. Looking at Bloodtithe and other chaos summoning design, I find them to be interesting extra but they don't act as a core design in their armies, at least not like summoning is in Slaanesh.

Now that we have the option to play with these new and splendid mortals, I have been looking to build list without daemons yet summoning daemons has remained one of the key features  of the army in the new book, which is fine, but Mortals are pointed with the idea that summoning would make it up for it yet it clearly doesn't.

 I'm not complaining about their competitiveness, I just don't get why I am being forced to play with this specific playstyle, which is, as of right now, is not rewarding enough. I don't mind that summoning stays as long as I don't get punish if I choose to ignore it. Unfortunatly the book is built around it, at least a lot more than for another army, therefore you kinda have to work for it otherwise It feels like you are playing with a handicap.  

I was watching a stream from Heywoah earlier and  he made a good point regarding game design. If the rule designers struggle in balancing a rule, then perhaps they should remove it or nuance it to the point that it is not too fundamental (until they can find way to make it work, or find sth better). I understand it might upset some people but as I said, I used to play khorne and  "waiting for the next book until they get it right" has become a meme for this army and I hope that it is not going to be the same for HoS.

[Lurynsar]

2 hours ago, Apinecone said:

On the topic of slickblades have people checked the maths on them or is it just the initial sadness of going from 200pts to 230?  As while I have only done the quick odds rather than anything in-depth, they still compare very well with our other units from what I see.  They are not much more fragile than hellstiders, as while they have a worse save they bring in more wounds per point and are a whole lot sturdier than twinsouls in aggressive form.  Their damage is also a lot better than that of hellstiders point for point, clawstiders even with the charge are worse against all targets.  The only units that can out preform them are twinsouls with their rerolls (though slickblades do win out against 2+ and 3+ saves) and the dread pageant (best points to damage we have).  Unless my maths is really off, while the 30pt jump sucks if they are still a good unit.

I have played 10 games with them, so feel I can add a little insight from my experience. While I haven't done "math" for them (and as someone who has played a ton of competitive games, math only gets you so far, table experience is often different than paper power), I can say they do not FEEL worth 230 points. I can't say if 200 would feel better. What I can say is that 195 points for Blood Knights feels great for them, and I wish we had a unit like them at their cost.

I just don't find that Slickblades do enough for their cost. They are fast. They are decent, or even good at killing. They don't survive well enough. I cannot justify those 3 "stats" for 230 points. In my games they were not impactful. Now maybe I will find that Hellstriders aren't impactful either and offer even less than Slickblades, even at almost 100 points less, but until I have got them on the table I can't know for sure.

The problem with mathing out "best damage" is actually putting that into effect. Slickblades are larger bases, with an awkward shape, and against the more MSU just aren't efficient. Sure they might kill a 110 point unit they charge with some ease, but they are then removed easily back. Screens are the name of the game (at least with my opponents and local meta) and they can either hold back to engage something better than screens (in which case their speed is wasted) or they can clear out the screens. The math says damage is good, but the actual tabletop experience says they don't have a role we need filled (or that we cannot fill with better "cheaper" options). This is why I don't feel they are worth their points. Twinsouls can better engage screens, survive longer (ish) and are able to not waste their speed for less points. The Slickblades want to do something that IMO the meta doesn't have existing yet.

That said, I haven't written them off as garbage. Just that in my experience 230 points is too many for what they actually bring to the table. If they are truly one of the best units based on math, then maybe someone can unlock how to use them, or maybe the meta shifts differently than my local and they slot in beautifully for us. I am hopeful that all (except Slaangors!) our units have a place, and that we are just waiting for the right meta, or player to unlock their power. In my experience the Slickblades are not at that point; hopefully someone else can show me wrong and teach me how to use them to allow me to put them back in my lists sometime.

[Lurynsar]

13 minutes ago, Sigmarusvult said:

That's fair, I used to play Blades of Khorne and while bloodtithe was fun for me - it offers lots of tricks - you still have the option to summon instead. Looking at Bloodtithe and other chaos summoning design, I find them to be interesting extra but they don't act as a core design in their armies, at least not like summoning is in Slaanesh.

Now that we have the option to play with these new and splendid mortals, I have been looking to build list without daemons yet summoning daemons has remained one of the key features  of the army in the new book, which is fine, but Mortals are pointed with the idea that summoning would make it up for it yet it clearly doesn't.

 I'm not complaining about their competitiveness, I just don't get why I am being forced to play with this specific playstyle, which is, as of right now, is not rewarding enough. I don't mind that summoning stays as long as I don't get punish if I choose to ignore it. Unfortunatly the book is built around it, at least a lot more than for another army, therefore you kinda have to work for it otherwise It feels like you are playing with a handicap.  

I was watching a stream from Heywoah earlier and  he made a good point regarding game design. If the rule designers struggle in balancing a rule, then perhaps they should remove it or nuance it to the point that it is not too fundamental (until they can find way to make it work, or find sth better). I understand it might upset some people but as I said, I used to play khorne and  "waiting for the next book until they get it right" has become a meme for this army and I hope that it is not going to be the same for HoS.

I will state that I look at everything through a competitive lense. As such sometimes my thoughts will not work for someone looking for a more "story driven" mechanic or unit. For pure, raw power our summoning is good. Story wise, maybe it is weird, but to me on the table that doesn't matter. I have Soulbound (great RPG IMO for the record) when I want to explore story and feelings of the Mortal Realms, again that is me though.

That said GW has ALWAYS had a theme that they translate to an in game mechanic for their games. Necron (or undead) recursion, Sisters of Battle pious miracles, Tzeentch fate and dice manipulation, Kharadron ignoring core tenants of a magic and melee based game etc. Summoning is clearly our theme and game mechanic now. If you don't like that aspect I believe you will be unhappy with Slaanesh; probably forever. With today's article and past discussion it is clear that GW has pointed the faction to take advantage of our amazing summoning. If you don't want to have to play with summoning then I am sorry that GW is moving away from what you want in the faction.

That all said I do not believe GW cannot balance it. Our points costs are high, but our summoning is very powerful and feels insanely impactful. So I would say that despite a failed balance with our previous book, they have succeeded in making summoning balanced this go around; especially heading into 3rd. As such there would be no reason for GW to drop this theme, as they clearly can (and IMO have) balance such a mechanic.

I do not believe we have to wait for a new book. I believe we are able to play now (maybe not at the tippy top of the competitive ladder, but usually that's only 2-4 lists anyways, and we cannot expect to be there), and that waiting for another book is only going to disappoint the player-base if they think it will do much change wise. There won't be sweeping changes (except maybe Slaangors!), and almost certainly the mechanics we have will continue, even if they are tweaked or added to.

[Benkei]

But you see, you can't compare Slickblades costs to Blood Knights costs because ZUMM0N1NG!!!!!. You know, it's a little known fact that the other factions got no allegiance abilities so they don't have to pay for them while we have our "maybe one unit/round summoning" now that games are much shorter, then our wonderful locus of diversion now that monster and hero spam are gonna be commoner and exploding 6s (admittedly, this is good and wasn't nerfed beyond not affecting S2D) while factions like LRL have to make do with a mere 4535383 allegiance rules. That's why we are overcosted but the other factions aren't. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Benkei

[Jaskier]

I think 200 would be fair for Slicks, they'd be fine at the price point though obviously not as good as they were when Seeker Cavalcade was around. 180-190 would be where they'd be maybe overpushed a bit, but currently Hellstriders just outperform them per point which is bad considering one is Battleline and the other isn't. 

130-140 would be my ideal price point for Myrmidesh. You can say they 'feel' fine at 160 but in reality the unit is way too pricey relative to its damage output and durability. They are a great 5 man unit which is a massive boon in 3.0 which is why they feel like a good elite squad, but they are absolutely overpriced for what they do. They should realistically be around the same cost as Hellstriders (who are priced well) - Hellstriders have double the attacks at a lower quality, and trade durability for over double the mobility and much better screening potential (as well as being unconditional Battleline.) 

It's the same deal with Symbaresh; their warscroll is great for 3.0, but you are paying too much for a unit that can die so easily - which is arguably a bigger concern now that Unleash Hell is a thing. Drop them down to 160 and they'd be in a good spot, make them 150 and they'd be really good; they're glass cannons, and at those points they would hit hard but still be fairly fragile for their price bracket, rather than overly fragile relatively as they are now. 

Keepers were going to be too good at 340, so 360-380 is probably right for them. Most of our characters (especially the Epitome) could do with minor to moderate drops, but some are just about right (Dexcessa and the Masque in particular.) Slaangors will remain garbage unless they drop to 100 or less points. Daemonettes need to be at most 125 (i.e. 10 points more than Bloodletters) but ideally 115.

The internet needs to stop comparing other armies' ranged units to Blissbarbs though - they shouldn't be 180, but a price like 140 starts to reach "too good not to spam" territory considering at 180 you still generally want 1-2 units of them. You can really tell who understands how Slaanesh plays based off their opinions on Blissbarbs. 

AoS 3.0 is fantastic for us, the points increases much less so. I still think we're in a decent to good spot competitively for the moment as our faction really has the tools to win games moreso than it already did in 2.0, but realistically we shouldn't have gotten such big increases and it's going to stifle list building until it's fixed. I shouldn't be looking at the mercenary Warstomper as a superior use of 470 points over two thirds of our book, but that's where we're at right now. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Jaskier

[Nagashfan]

22 minutes ago, Benkei said:

But you see, you can't compare Slickblades costs to Blood Knights costs because ZUMM0N1NG!!!!!. You know, it's a little known fact that the other factions got no allegiance abilities so they don't have to pay for them while we have our "maybe one unit/round summoning" now that games are much shorter, then our wonderful locus of diversion now that monster and hero spam are gonna be commoner and exploding 6s (admittedly, this is good and wasn't nerfed beyond not affecting S2D) while factions like LRL have to make do with a mere 4535383 allegiance rules. That's why we are overcosted but the other factions aren't. 

Hahahaha sarcasm detected!!

[Starfyre]

Personally my view on summoning is that it's very fluffy and fits the central theme of Slaanesh, in that daemons are attracted to the excess of pain and summoning throughout the battle. Not necessarily the killing, but the protracted battle, because it's, you know, excessive. Just kill them! And as more pain and suffering occurs on both sides, the more daemons are attracted to the battle.

I don't think it's like a hero actively decides to open a portal and bring this unit into the battle, maybe like a necromancer or Slaan would, but rather these portals open as the orgy of blood and violence continues, and as a player we just happen to get to choose what comes through.

[Lucentia]

To me whether it's fluffy or not is kind of moot, by skewing the points cost so heavily to account for the powerful summoning you effectively make leaning into the summoning aspect the only way to make (competitive) Hedonite lists.  Does summoning make thematic sense in a Slaanesh army?  Sure, of course.  But does it make sense in every Slaanesh army?  Cos right now it's the only viable way to play the game. (Again, looking from a competitive angle.)

It just seems a shame to have all these beautiful models available when the actual variety in list building is so limited by the rules design.

[whispersofblood]

I played two games against LRL last night on TTS with the following list:

Infernal Enrapturess (Glory Hog, Rod of Misrule) (Vanguard)

Infernal Enrapturess (Warlord)

The Masque (Warlord)

Bladebringer (Seeker Chariot, Armour of Destiny), Flaming Weapon (Warlord)

Chaos Warriors (Halberds + Shields) (Hunters of the Heartland)

Blissbarb Archers (Vanguard)

Blissbarb Archers (Vanguard)

Blissbarb Archers (Vanguard)

Hellstriders w/ Clawspears (Warlord)

Hellstriders w/ Clawspears (Hunters of the Heartland)

Chaos Warshrine (Curse)

I basically played each game exactly the same way. The Warriors and the Warshrine were deployed in the middle, pushed up and wheeled to cut the board in half. Which gave me a large portion of the board to base my shooting units in. I basically used the two Infernal Enrapturess to secure a lot of my Battle Tactics from range. Because I could generate depravity from range I didn't have to do much charging and the CP my opponent saved for Unleash Hell was often wasted or used for BS which I don't really care about. 

He didn't have a unit capable of fighting the CW block. HE tried Avanelor the first game and he basically bounced (I think he did like 2 dmg on the charge and then 3 the next round), 3+ rr, and a 6+ against normal damage was basically immune to dmg from rend 1.

The Hellstriders were essentially mobile walls used to keep my Blissbarbs out of danger. What I would do is move the Hellstriders first as the wall. Put the Blissbarbs about an 1 or 2 behind them depending on range. And then I would use Redeploy so they couldn't be drawn into combat by Dawnriders or other charging units. 

By turn 3 I had summoned an Blade bringer on exalted, and regular exalted chariot. The Bladebringer with Arcane bolt doing 3d3 MW on the charge basically broke a flank on its own. I had used Redeploy on the mask to make the room to summon the chariot the turn before and rolled the double. It killed 10 Stoneguard on its own. Which I think was pretty peak dmg doing 7 MW.

Then once things got really close I used curse on the 30 block of Wardens and fired everything into them (I tried to force through Acquiescence with predictable results 😒) , and did 20 dmg total. Once the block was done, basically by board position he couldn't keep up with objectives scoring 1 to my 3 each round, and because I killed a Monster (I have cast Metamorphosis on my Enrapturess for the extra point) and I had none he couldn't make up the difference in Battle Tactics, so we called the match.

The second went mostly the same with the opponent trying to play more aggressively. But LRL not built to play the aggro game actually are quite flat when it comes to dishing damage out and again the Chaos Warriors were just too tanky. The follow up round of combat where their target is cursed and potentially with acquiescence which I did get off a few times does very high levels of dmg. 

The Masque was great actually, and probably will be in all my list, great little model for stymieing Unleash Hell, and summoning from. I had originally only taken her over a third Enrapturess because I was 5 points over, haha. 

I never actually cast flaming weapon on the Bladebringer, so I might drop it for Born from Damnation, but its pretty good for dealing with Skinks so its hard to say in a Tournament build which I would take. The Chaos Warriors being 4+ and always having CP meant I never really cast Mystic Shield but I suppose you always have it, or can summon it on so something to keep in mind. 

I might switch the vanguard for Battle Regiment as my drop count was pretty high and I'd probably enjoy going second more often then not since most of my buffs are reactive and not active. 

I'm not sure how I would make this more Hedonite heavy, since Curse, and the Chaos Warriors were such a massive tool in this list. 

 

[MothmanDraws]

15 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

“We welcome your thoughts on the new points values, so please do not hesitate to send them in. The feedback that is particularly useful for us is that which focuses on powerful synergies and rules interactions between units that seem to have not been accounted for. Rest assured, we look at every bit of feedback that is submitted and greatly appreciate everyone who takes the time to do so.”

I'm sure as GW posted this, they were looking at the survey we sent them and couldn’t hold themselves back from laughing. 
 

On another note, how do you guys think we do against other armies, aside from Lumanith (who are in a category of their own)? I actually think we match up pretty competitively against most armies, excluding a few that are top tier. 

I think we actually play decent into lumineth with lurid haze, though its mostly through sacking sigvald into the troops or kangaroos. If you can get sigvald + seekers in turn 1 charges into wardens and sentinels from haze you have good chance at breaking armies back. Sure you might be left fighting teclis but you can rob them of ground control and teclis can only hold 1 objective. 

Some windcharger meme lists will be tough to get due to them moving in your shooting phase, but run + shoot blissbarbs, or use lurid haze to pincer them so they have less room to run should work. 

This is ignoring shackles though which honestly shackles neuters 90% of slaanesh armies, only sigvald will reliably get around them.

 

Not to say I think we are strong or lumineth isnt one of top dogs, I just think sigvald can go ham into them if hes rolling hot. I would also swap blissbarb playstyle into them, dont spit shots and go for actual damage, if you go first you can hopefully neuter 3-4 units with dexcessa+sigvald+seekers+blissbarbs. If you run into a 20 man sentinel or warden block sigvald should put major work into them. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by MothmanDraws