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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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10 minutes ago, Fyrenn said:

Question...  i'm not sure if this is worded exactly the same as 2.0 or not.  But I noticed this about paired weapons in the 3.0 core roles (pg 14):

"Some models are armed with two of the same weapon (often referred to as paired weapons). When this is the case, the Attacks characteristic for the weapon will already take the extra weapon into account, or the model will have an ability to represent the model dual-wielding"

I'm that guy who was always asking about slaangors, so i'm just wondering if this is something that is worded the same or not as before; it seems that Slaangors do not adequately fit the description from the book.  IE; they do not have an ability to represent they are duel wielding, yet the attack characteristics do not indicate dual wielding either (because the unit champion has it (singular) and uses the same attack profile.

Might be pointless, but I was wondering if that's something worth sending to the rules people for clarification?  Or if the assumption is ... yeah, the attack profile represents dual wielding. the champion is just extra awesome and fast and attacks in a whirlwind as if he had two blades in one hand!

 

 

I did ask that question to the rules team via email upon release of our battletome and never got an answer

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12 minutes ago, Fyrenn said:

Question...  i'm not sure if this is worded exactly the same as 2.0 or not.  But I noticed this about paired weapons in the 3.0 core roles (pg 14):

"Some models are armed with two of the same weapon (often referred to as paired weapons). When this is the case, the Attacks characteristic for the weapon will already take the extra weapon into account, or the model will have an ability to represent the model dual-wielding"

I'm that guy who was always asking about slaangors, so i'm just wondering if this is something that is worded the same or not as before; it seems that Slaangors do not adequately fit the description from the book.  IE; they do not have an ability to represent they are duel wielding, yet the attack characteristics do not indicate dual wielding either (because the unit champion has it (singular) and uses the same attack profile.

Might be pointless, but I was wondering if that's something worth sending to the rules people for clarification?  Or if the assumption is ... yeah, the attack profile represents dual wielding. the champion is just extra awesome and fast and attacks in a whirlwind as if he had two blades in one hand!

 

 

The fact that it’s Razor-Sharp Claw(s) and not Claw means it’s the same profile whether they have 1 claw or 8. 

If the regular models just got 6 attacks each with their claws they wouldn’t be near as awful. 

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So now list building is basically "don't ever take anything whose points were adjusted" with a bit of "don't take Hedonites units" sprinkled on top

 

And 3 days ago I was uber excited at running a kitted up KoS with the Epitome. I mostly like all the 3.0 changes did, but I can't use most of them due to the way our points changed because I can't build a list to makes good use of Monsters/Heroes/Endless Spells with our new battleline tax and the massive hikes for KoS and Epitome. I can handle the rest, but KoS and Epitome (and probably Daemonettes/Archers) are just too much 

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Just now, Benkei said:

So now list building is basically "don't ever take anything whose points were adjusted" with a bit of "don't take Hedonites units" sprinkled on top

 

And 3 days ago I was uber excited at running a kitted up KoS with the Epitome. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Benkei said:

So now list building is basically "don't ever take anything whose points were adjusted" with a bit of "don't take Hedonites units" sprinkled on top

To be fair, I think Hedonites are now by far our best units (including Archaon as he has the keyword). Now Slaves don't count as battleline and do pretty poor damage, we're better using our own units.

I think, personally, our best battleline is now painbringers or twinsouls - we don't have a cheap choice, so we may as well use our battleline (rather than have it as tax). For a bit of positivity, I can say I'm looking forwaed to using these two units more  

Thanks @Lurynsar for the write up :) I know it would be hard to say, but in a world where we kept our old points, how do you think you would have fared? I'm just curious to see if you'd think we'd be too strong, or if there was any key piece you'd have loved to include 

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54 minutes ago, Benkei said:

So now list building is basically "don't ever take anything whose points were adjusted" with a bit of "don't take Hedonites units" sprinkled on top

 

And 3 days ago I was uber excited at running a kitted up KoS with the Epitome. I mostly like all the 3.0 changes did, but I can't use most of them due to the way our points changed because I can't build a list to makes good use of Monsters/Heroes/Endless Spells with our new battleline tax and the massive hikes for KoS and Epitome. I can handle the rest, but KoS and Epitome (and probably Daemonettes/Archers) are just too much 

Yeah basically for now… but it won’t last… everywhere I turn on AOS related stuff people are saying the same thing that slaanesh points are wrong… they won’t leave it like that forever 

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Having finally finished my first unit of Blissbarb Archers (so much detail. Seriously, SO much detail) I'm going to move onto Twinsouls and then Painbringers, rather than build the Slickblade Seekers I'd had in mind as my next project. They're looking like our battleline of choice as @Enoby pointed out, so I might as well get cracking on them.

I think worries about Slaanesh being squatted as a result of this year's poor rollout is premature and most likely not going to happen. Slaanesh is one of the Big 4 and has been around for a very long time, not only in Fantasy but 40k too. They're an integral part of Games Workshop's proprietary lore and I don't see GW jettisoning them anytime soon. 

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6 hours ago, Enoby said:

To be fair, I think Hedonites are now by far our best units (including Archaon as he has the keyword). Now Slaves don't count as battleline and do pretty poor damage, we're better using our own units.

I think, personally, our best battleline is now painbringers or twinsouls - we don't have a cheap choice, so we may as well use our battleline (rather than have it as tax). For a bit of positivity, I can say I'm looking forwaed to using these two units more  

Thanks @Lurynsar for the write up :) I know it would be hard to say, but in a world where we kept our old points, how do you think you would have fared? I'm just curious to see if you'd think we'd be too strong, or if there was any key piece you'd have loved to include 

I do believe it’s hard to say. I should point out that in all 3 test games I did win. So having “more” certainly wouldn’t have been a detriment. 

That said, I do believe I can offer some insight on the take away’s if we had old points. 

My Hero choices are largely no different. The handful of points do not make or break the list. So having old costs for them wouldn’t have changed anything. 

When it comes to units I believe that the Painbringers at 150 or 160 wouldn’t have mattered. They felt fine, and did exactly what I planned on them doing. The Twinsouls likely would have felt much better at 30 points less for the unit, however they were absolutely fantastic and while the price tag sucks for list building, the 2” melee range was worth the cost. I feel they’re a little too much, but they did work and were hard to shift. So I can’t say they’re overcosted, and might be “too good” at the older cost.

However at 30 points less (60 overall) for the two units of Slickblades would have felt MUCH better. As I said the Blood Knights at 175 were just superior IMO. They did what I wanted my cavalry unit to do, they were pointed fairly and just overall seemed much better than Slickblades. They would have not felt OP at their older costs, and I truly believe they are overcosted right now. Blissbarb Archers weren’t bad, but also weren’t great. However that may be more how I played them, so further testing is 100% needed. That said though I feel they may have been much better (not sure they’d be too good though) at 180 instead of the 220. I feel a middle ground is a better place for them. The Unleash Hell has a lot of power behind it, and we could easily abuse it in a list if they were too cheap. 

The Endless Spell (Wheels) was useful, and helped generate a lot of depravity in the game, and would be totally under costed at its old price. The new rules for Endless Spells make them something the opponent has to try and remove, or can really help your game plan and ruin your opponents. This is something I feel they got 100% right. Spending 100 points feels bad for it, but felt totally fair after playing it several times. They truly are VERY different to use now. 

Summoning felt stupid powerful. Like game breaking powerful. However I’m not sure how much of that was accurate and how much was an inflated sense of points making me feel more powerful than it was. Summoning on average around 1500 points of models seems INSANE (averaged out 50 Daemonettes and 2 Keepers per game), but then again is it as insane as 1200 points? Maybe. It’s really hard to quantify. Daemonettes and Keepers did exactly what I needed them to, and were always a huge part of my victory, and it felt gross summoning more than 3/4s of my initial army in points into the game. But at the same time I would not have been happy I feel to spend 1500+ points on those models, so it’s certainly feels at this point that our summoning is amazing (MSU and what not going forward), but that shouldn’t be the reason they cost so many points. That’s backwards, and very confusing. So yeah summoning is super strong for us, but that’s because of the mechanic and not the points costs at all. The Daemonettes and Keepers are overpriced I feel based on my experiences so far. Great yes, but not 1500+ points great at all. That would not be a good army. 

As to what I felt I was missing? Honestly the list felt very well rounded and comfortable. I’m hoping to bang out the next 7 games before next weekend and will report back. I will say however I cannot consider Gluttos at 475. He was actually too good at 400, and is probably balanced at 475, but because everything else is so costly I don’t believe he’s a good investment overall. Likewise a lot of “support” pieces like the Contorted Epitome, and even Seekers would feel really solid in my lists, but I cannot find a place to cut them and to keep the efficiency we need to make sure summoning goes off. Even if I were to change out both units of Slickblades and the Blissbarbs I’d need to replace them with more combat oriented units that spread easy mortals or damage across the board. Like some mixture of Hellstriders and Blissbarb Seekers. Because summoning is so strong (and honestly the only thing that’s going to keep up remotely viable at this time IMO) we need the things to generate depravity, and while the “support” style units can do it; they give up too much of the battle line and the strengths we do have to be in the list at their costs. I want support pieces to be cheap, or at least cheaper. Even if that means toning them down somewhere. I just cannot justify support right now with points being so tight. 

Hopefully that gives a little insight into where my mind is at with the list and the faction. I have games against Orruks, Daughters, Lumineth and likely more Soulblight coming in the next few days. So hopefully I can give more context to what I'm seeing early, and as others get games in we can put our data together and see where we can shine, and what’s not just a knee-****** reaction from players, and needs something done about it. 

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I ran some numbers on Hellstriders versus Slickblades, and at their new costs I actually think you're just better off running Hellstriders instead now. 10 Hellstriders (split into two units of 5) cost 270 points, whereas 5 Slickblades cost 230 points. Their rough damage output is fairly similar, but Hellstriders (assuming you take Icons) are Bravery 8 so don't have to worry about Battleshock, and the number of wounds is the same but spread across two units meaning they are less susceptible to being focused down, and those wounds have a 4+ instead of a 5+. Hellstriders are also Battleline. Sadly, I don't think Slickblades are competitive anymore at 230. 

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3 hours ago, Jaskier said:

I ran some numbers on Hellstriders versus Slickblades, and at their new costs I actually think you're just better off running Hellstriders instead now. 10 Hellstriders (split into two units of 5) cost 270 points, whereas 5 Slickblades cost 230 points. Their rough damage output is fairly similar, but Hellstriders (assuming you take Icons) are Bravery 8 so don't have to worry about Battleshock, and the number of wounds is the same but spread across two units meaning they are less susceptible to being focused down, and those wounds have a 4+ instead of a 5+. Hellstriders are also Battleline. Sadly, I don't think Slickblades are competitive anymore at 230. 

While our units can have other utility I think it might be worth looking at the damage our units do and how that compares when it comes to points, if I have time later I will try to do it myself.  It will be sad if I have to say bye to my slickblades for a while as they are some of my favourite models.  Though if slickblades don't seem worth it this puts blissbarb seekers in an even worse place as their damage compared really poorly to pretty much everything and got an even worse points increase than slickblades.

 

When it comes to models for future realises even if slaanesh had set the world on fire I doubt we would have got the lrl treatment range wise.  Our range feels pretty complete just now so I expect we would fall into category of just getting a new special character or leader and a book no matter what.  I just hope the devs can get over the fear the 1.0 slaanesh book has clearly left them with.

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4 hours ago, Lurynsar said:

I do believe it’s hard to say. I should point out that in all 3 test games I did win. So having “more” certainly wouldn’t have been a detriment. 

That said, I do believe I can offer some insight on the take away’s if we had old points. 

My Hero choices are largely no different. The handful of points do not make or break the list. So having old costs for them wouldn’t have changed anything. 

When it comes to units I believe that the Painbringers at 150 or 160 wouldn’t have mattered. They felt fine, and did exactly what I planned on them doing. The Twinsouls likely would have felt much better at 30 points less for the unit, however they were absolutely fantastic and while the price tag sucks for list building, the 2” melee range was worth the cost. I feel they’re a little too much, but they did work and were hard to shift. So I can’t say they’re overcosted, and might be “too good” at the older cost.

However at 30 points less (60 overall) for the two units of Slickblades would have felt MUCH better. As I said the Blood Knights at 175 were just superior IMO. They did what I wanted my cavalry unit to do, they were pointed fairly and just overall seemed much better than Slickblades. They would have not felt OP at their older costs, and I truly believe they are overcosted right now. Blissbarb Archers weren’t bad, but also weren’t great. However that may be more how I played them, so further testing is 100% needed. That said though I feel they may have been much better (not sure they’d be too good though) at 180 instead of the 220. I feel a middle ground is a better place for them. The Unleash Hell has a lot of power behind it, and we could easily abuse it in a list if they were too cheap. 

The Endless Spell (Wheels) was useful, and helped generate a lot of depravity in the game, and would be totally under costed at its old price. The new rules for Endless Spells make them something the opponent has to try and remove, or can really help your game plan and ruin your opponents. This is something I feel they got 100% right. Spending 100 points feels bad for it, but felt totally fair after playing it several times. They truly are VERY different to use now. 

Summoning felt stupid powerful. Like game breaking powerful. However I’m not sure how much of that was accurate and how much was an inflated sense of points making me feel more powerful than it was. Summoning on average around 1500 points of models seems INSANE (averaged out 50 Daemonettes and 2 Keepers per game), but then again is it as insane as 1200 points? Maybe. It’s really hard to quantify. Daemonettes and Keepers did exactly what I needed them to, and were always a huge part of my victory, and it felt gross summoning more than 3/4s of my initial army in points into the game. But at the same time I would not have been happy I feel to spend 1500+ points on those models, so it’s certainly feels at this point that our summoning is amazing (MSU and what not going forward), but that shouldn’t be the reason they cost so many points. That’s backwards, and very confusing. So yeah summoning is super strong for us, but that’s because of the mechanic and not the points costs at all. The Daemonettes and Keepers are overpriced I feel based on my experiences so far. Great yes, but not 1500+ points great at all. That would not be a good army. 

As to what I felt I was missing? Honestly the list felt very well rounded and comfortable. I’m hoping to bang out the next 7 games before next weekend and will report back. I will say however I cannot consider Gluttos at 475. He was actually too good at 400, and is probably balanced at 475, but because everything else is so costly I don’t believe he’s a good investment overall. Likewise a lot of “support” pieces like the Contorted Epitome, and even Seekers would feel really solid in my lists, but I cannot find a place to cut them and to keep the efficiency we need to make sure summoning goes off. Even if I were to change out both units of Slickblades and the Blissbarbs I’d need to replace them with more combat oriented units that spread easy mortals or damage across the board. Like some mixture of Hellstriders and Blissbarb Seekers. Because summoning is so strong (and honestly the only thing that’s going to keep up remotely viable at this time IMO) we need the things to generate depravity, and while the “support” style units can do it; they give up too much of the battle line and the strengths we do have to be in the list at their costs. I want support pieces to be cheap, or at least cheaper. Even if that means toning them down somewhere. I just cannot justify support right now with points being so tight. 

Hopefully that gives a little insight into where my mind is at with the list and the faction. I have games against Orruks, Daughters, Lumineth and likely more Soulblight coming in the next few days. So hopefully I can give more context to what I'm seeing early, and as others get games in we can put our data together and see where we can shine, and what’s not just a knee-****** reaction from players, and needs something done about it. 

Thanks for the feedback. This echoes my worries mostly: I'm ok with certain things going up in points (mainly Eternal Spells, a modest increase to KoS and Glutos) and with the LoP tax to get Myrm/Symbs as battleline, but there are some units you just can't include in your lists now, and they happen to be really iconic units too (KoS, Daemonettes, Epitome). I honestly don't give a damn about playing a high competitive army, but I do want to be able to play my amazing miniatures I spent time building and painting, and just a tone down of the worst price hikes would do that

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1 hour ago, Apinecone said:

While our units can have other utility I think it might be worth looking at the damage our units do and how that compares when it comes to points, if I have time later I will try to do it myself.  It will be sad if I have to say bye to my slickblades for a while as they are some of my favourite models.  Though if slickblades don't seem worth it this puts blissbarb seekers in an even worse place as their damage compared really poorly to pretty much everything and got an even worse points increase than slickblades.

 

When it comes to models for future realises even if slaanesh had set the world on fire I doubt we would have got the lrl treatment range wise.  Our range feels pretty complete just now so I expect we would fall into category of just getting a new special character or leader and a book no matter what.  I just hope the devs can get over the fear the 1.0 slaanesh book has clearly left them with.

The kits I think left that hedonites could do with is small, probably saved for some future thing

-Foot slickblades

-new daemonettes

-new seekers/chariots

-mounted lord of pain/wizard

new daemons could be justified in a 40k release leaving really just foot slickblades and a mounted hero as things the army wants to have. The new hero could easily just be a "broken realms" style drop sometime in future. 

For rules that would be nice on a mounted lord either command ability to advance + charge, or something funky like "once per turn can give the redeploy order or an aura of +3 to redeploy move". I feel Slaanesh as faction should have more access to redeploy, we are supposed to be fast and glass canon, having ability to easily move back when charged will help. It also is thematic with teasing opponent. Honestly I was expecting either blissbarb archers or blissbarb seekers to have a retreat when charge option built in to represent them more as skirmish archers. 

Skill wise that lets hedonites play more into skillfull positioning that is punished if you mess up and only take fights that we want to take. 

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