AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[KrispyXIV]

7 minutes ago, Benkei said:

Funny how S2D Tzeencht units can still reroll saves

They reroll 1s, which is good - pretty good on a modified 2+ or 3+ save.  

It's also balanced against (ie, opportunity cost) pretty significant offensive buffs in a faction sometimes starved for offense, so...

Edited July 2, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[azdimy]

14 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Consider this then - if you have a second +1 from any source at all (that didn't previously exist - all out defense, mystic shield, etc) then the numbers shift.  Against Rend -1, the two +1s are better than 2e rerollable (again, excepting lurid haze CA - its definitely hurt)... 66% vs 56%, by your math. 

That's a significant boost. 

Clarification- +1 saves on demand are cheap now,  and the trick is stacking them.  Painbringers do this well. Given the nature of 3e, having +1 save on your tank units is close to a given.  I think that makes this a fair comparison. 

Honestly, it s now easier to tank with Twinsouls than Painbringers because you can go to a 3+ for a command point and/or mystic shield and get the 5++ ward and as stated earlier the no rend weapons have a  better chance to do damage in a world of no reroll saves than when reroll save was a thing

[Benkei]

8 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

They reroll 1s, which is good - pretty good on a modified 2+ or 3+ save.  

It's also balanced against (ie, opportunity cost) pretty significant offensive buffs in a faction sometimes starved for offense, so...

Just like for all ther other units it was balanced by either lack of offense or higher points cost, but GW decided not to take any of that into account and made a blanket change not minding if it was "reroll 1s" or "reroll everything" and leaving some units out of it altogether. It seems like amateur hour to me.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Benkei

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, Benkei said:

Just like for all ther other units it was balanced by eother lack or offense of higher points cost, but GW decided not to take any of that into account and made a blamket changed not minding if it was "reroll 1s" or "reroll everything" and leaving some units out of it altogether. It seems like amateur hour to me.

Are you sure?  

In Stormcast, I'm pretty sure that reroll ones to save (sigmarite shields) got replaced with "reduce rend by 1", strictly inferior to +1 to saves that full rerolls got.  

Sylvaneth got the full +1 to saves for their reroll 1s, but they really needed it...  

The key is, they were absolutely paying attention. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Benkei]

Except Sequitors got their "reroll all saves" turned into a 5+ ward and as you just said some "reroll 1s" got turned into "ignore Rend - 1" (which is basically the same in a world with Mystic Shield and All Out Defense) and other got the "+1 save" treatment. It seems to me like there I absolutely no rhyme or reasons to this, the same than with some of the point changes. 

 

As to your "Sylvaneth needed the help": didn't Shardspeaker, Shalaxi and Painbringers too? It's not like they were star players in 2.0 neither. Hell, didn't Liberators need some help too? 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Benkei

[azdimy]

I would bet that reroll saves are coming back in aos 3 battletomes

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Benkei said:

Except Sequitors got their "reroll all saves" turned into a 5+ ward and as you just said some "reroll 1s" got turned into "ignore Rend - 1" (which is basically the same in a world with Mystic Shield and All Out Defense) and other got the "+1 save" treatment. It seems to me like there I absolutely no rhyme or reasons to this, the same than with some of the point changes. 

You say no rhyme or reason, but your examples seem to indicate the opposite.  They didn't do a blanket replacement for these abilities, they instead did a model by model replacement with different results based on circumstances.  

I'm not saying GW is perfect- Sentinels are somehow 150 points- but random these changes are not. 

[Benkei]

Sorry, by "random" I meant "they don't have a clue what they are doing", hence amateur hour. Also, helping some units that are hurting but nerfing other units that are also hurting for me is the very definition of "no rhyme or reason". Or removing all our strike first/last mechanics and then reintroducing them. 

I agree tho this is gonna be a 40k-esque "if you got an updated codex you are OK, if you don't you might as well not bother" edition. Shame we won't have one for a loooong time. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Benkei

[Jaskier]

As the owner of 15 Myrmidesh, the change is a kick in the teeth. The 3+ save is nice but in most cases I'd much prefer the 4+ re-rolling with the option to boost to a 3+ re-rolling, as mathematically even a 4+ re-rolling is better than a 3+ without re-rolls - and the potential for a 3+ re-rolling at the cost of a spell/CP played into how even small 5-strong units of them could be a pricey but surprisingly good roadblock. Now, I see no good reason to ever run them over Hellstriders. Their damage isn't that much better, and they aren't that much more durable in combat anymore. 

The thing is, I'm perfectly happy with this change being universal, but Myrmidesh are definitely worse off than they used to be even before you account for the points increase they got which just looks even more confusing with this new information in hand. You can literally just pay a CP to give 10 Twinsouls the same defensive benefit Myrmidesh are designed around. Think about how absolutely pointless that renders them, because why would you ever not invest CP into Twinsouls? And let's be honest; it's not a great change for Chaos Warriors/Sorcerer Lords either, but at least those are still cheap; the change to Sorcerer Lords in particular means I'm reconsidering my old position of always running one next to Archaon. 

Speaking of Archaon, I love that he now just counts as a General, which makes him a bit easier to use in Invaders. Not being able to give him a 2+ re-rolling anymore is probably for the best, especially now that a Sorcerer Lord/Mystic Shield/All Out Defense (or the Lurid Haze ability) can give him a 2+ that ignores up to -2 Rend. The Shalaxi thing is just evidence that they applied a universal mandate, but forgot how it affects particular units. Sure, it still helps negate Rend (which the Heroes you want her to fight will have) but it's a nerf regardless to a model that is already incredibly niche. 

As for positives, yeah that Dreadful Visage change is pretty baller; it should give you 2DP per round (if you summon it in the first turn, or if it lingers from a previous round) while applying an incredible debuff where you need it. I also like the 2 in 4 for Slaves and 1 in 4 for Beasts letting us take an army comprised almost entirely of stuff that isn't in our book, though honestly despite some of the nerfs I think we still mostly want to look inward for filling certain roles in the army. From where I'm standing, it really comes down to whether you can skip Archaon, I think - he's just absurdly strong given how small of an increase he got relative to other heroes of his calibre. 

[Selpharia]

Well, if the 40k pattern holds, we can expect some reversals in the winter FAQs and some potential new faction options in campaign books

[TimeToWaste85]

1 hour ago, pnkdth said:

Yepp, from their perspective Painbringers have the an always-on 1+ save CA in combat now. That's the perspective I'm taking as well and with that, how can I make the most of that.

Have you checked other armies? S2D lost their re-rolls to saves too. It is a universal thing as GW does not want super buffed up units in either offence or defence. Haven't really gone into many other FAQs but there's some stuff shaking things up. LotFP lost their VLC mortal wound combat monster, for example, as they can only pick from the big four + S2D (but not everchosen stuff).

Where did you find that? I looked in the WotE and Skaven FAQs. Didn’t see anything of the sort

 

Never mind. It’s in the broken realms book. Sigh…skaven Verminlords…I hardly knew ye. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by TimeToWaste85

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Where did you find that? I looked in the WotE and Skaven FAQs. Didn’t see anything of the sort

Here's the change to Chaos Warriors:

And to chaos sorcerer lord: 

[Benkei]

Honestly I'm getting a little tired or "just wait for the points", "just wait fof the FAQ", "just wait for the next FAQ", "just wait for campaign book". We already got to all of those and everyone of them was just another kick in the teeth. We have absolutely 0 reasons to think that's gonna improve 

Maybe it's time to switch armies, or games. 

 

Edit: don't forget the nerf to wheels after their 100% price hike 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Benkei

[Selpharia]

20 minutes ago, Benkei said:

 

Maybe it's time to switch armies, or games. 

This is a reasonable choice. Especially if it’s really bitter, walking away is perfectly valid. In the end, it’s all for fun, and if it’s not fun, do something else. There’s no prize for making yourself miserable 

[Nagashfan]

3 hours ago, Benkei said:

Just convert all your Painbringers to Twinsouls: they have 0 Rend, hit like a truck and tank as good as Painbringers or better. They are uglier, but what can you do? 

Head swaps?

[MothmanDraws]

1 minute ago, Nagashfan said:

Head swaps?

ill just have them as myrmidesh heads but twinsouls weapons

[Nagashfan]

4 hours ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

This is definitely a huge boon. Especially in the context of definitely not being able to use Wildfire Taurus if we coalition in some Beasts (and it got nerfed too) the Dark Prince giveth and he taketh away.

Sadly, whilst Beasts of Chaos can no longer take Slaangor (???) we've had no such luck and are still lumbered with them! 

Why can’t we use wildfire Taurus if we take a brey shaman?

[Selpharia]

They’re Myrmidesh slowly succumbing to the allure of the Symbaresh fusion

[Fyrenn]

36 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Why can’t we use wildfire Taurus if we take a brey shaman?

It's in the core book faq.  it says you can't take the endless spells of a faction of a coalition unit unless expressly permitted.

It's also not that great now, tbh. it doesn't protect beasts from the effect, less damage, harder to cast, and also the strikes last thing only happens on things within 3" of the taurus as opposed to anything damaged by it.

[mcnuggs]

Has anyone used Hellstriders? What was the experience like? On paper, Hellstriders w/ Lashes seem like a much better alternative than Painbringers now. I know that’s what people have been saying already, but did they feel effective on the tabletop? Were they squishier than you thought? Were the models fun to work with?

[TimeToWaste85]

2 hours ago, MothmanDraws said:

ill just have them as myrmidesh heads but twinsouls weapons

That’s what I did. Not a fan of Twinsouls heads either, but Myrmadesh are amazing. 

[Lurynsar]

36 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

That’s what I did. Not a fan of Twinsouls heads either, but Myrmadesh are amazing. 

Similar to me. Cut off the plumes of the Painbringer helmets and made more form fitting Romanesque style helmets for the Twinsouls. Then gave them the weapons of the Twinsouls. Tournament accurate and look better (and distinct enough) than the regular models. 

[Lurynsar]

2 hours ago, mcnuggs said:

Has anyone used Hellstriders? What was the experience like? On paper, Hellstriders w/ Lashes seem like a much better alternative than Painbringers now. I know that’s what people have been saying already, but did they feel effective on the tabletop? Were they squishier than you thought? Were the models fun to work with?

I’ve played 11 games with them. 1 unit of each. Both are fine. At times the lashes were better at other times the claw spears. Either or is a good choice for sure. 

They weren’t too squishy. They weren’t too killy. But they did their role fine, and we at a cost I was super happy with. 

[Smashin']

Damn it... but we don't have that Broken Realms book yet! Incoming guys! Prepare your wallets... (Heavy sarcasm... wonder how long it will take them to fix that. 😂)

Edited July 3, 2021 by Smashin'

[AngryPanda]

8 hours ago, pnkdth said:

Have you checked other armies? S2D lost their re-rolls to saves too. It is a universal thing as GW does not want super buffed up units in either offence or defence. Haven't really gone into many other FAQs but there's some stuff shaking things up. LotFP lost their VLC mortal wound combat monster, for example, as they can only pick from the big four + S2D (but not everchosen stuff).

I am familiar with the other changes, the concern I have is the lack of understanding for the differences between the individual armies that they have failed to take into consideration. To elaborate, a unit of Chaos Warriors losing their rerolls might sting, but they’re cheap enough to take in larger units and they still have MW protection. They won’t be killing anything, but a high number of bodies with a +3/+5 MW save is still going to do it’s intended job despite not having rerolls. Same with Chaos knights, Chaos Lords, etc. They’re still capable doing their intended job because they’re cheap enough to do so. 
 

Painbringers, by comparison, are now unable to do what they’re intended for. 160 points for five wounds was more understandable when they had reroll saves because it made them an elite option with high survivability. A unit of 10 Painbringers at 320 points holding off a horde of 60 Skaven is fluffy and made sense from a design choice, especially considering that their main weakness is mortal wounds. Now? They’re a worse version of Chaos Warriors. Sure, they could do more damage, but their damage output isn’t stellar. They’ve lost what made them special, and now they’re overpriced and can’t fill the role they were supposed to.
 

It just seems that GW doesn’t comprehend the changes that they’re making, especially when they make universal changes such as this. It is very lazy to not consider the individual armies that are being affected. It’s also not like Painbringers were smashing the tournament scenes. We’ve struggled to be a mid tier army since our relatively recent release in February, and they were one of the only options that were considered to be just ok.