Why units do not move on failed charge ?

[pseudonyme]

Dear plastic junkies,

I had my first game last week, at Warhammer world because I like to think big, and was wondering about failed charges.

It seemed odd to me that if you fail your charge roll you do not move at all. I can see that it would allow you to move even farter but at the same time it might put you in a dangerous / not ideal position.

Without being too simulationist, could there be another drawback of failing your charge roll besides not loving at all: like not being able to pile in or even to attack at all ?

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

I expect it’s just for simplicity.  Imagine it as the unit being disorganised, confused infighting etc instead of just not moving far enough. 

Perhaps an easy change would be that the unit moves half the distance rolled. But it’s unlikely to be changed anytime soon,  it’s not really considered a problem. 

[JPjr]

yeah have to admit since I got back into the game this year this one has been puzzling me. Actually on a related subject not having to declare which unit you're charging before you make the roll seems odd as well.

Anyway how I've figured it out in my head is that you don't move because (a) if you fail the roll and don't end up within 1/2"  but still moved you could be within 3", and so technically could then pile in, (b) just by moving you might affect other units (friendly and enemy) because the charging unit has some kind of aura ability, or (c) because by moving you might block off/limit your opponents movement still giving yourself an advantage.

(a) & (b) I guess you could add a rule that limit the abilities of units who failed charge rolls and moved for a turn but that adds more complexity, which they're obviously trying to avoid and that still wouldn't fix (c) either.

But I do feel like a failed charge roll should come with a penalty as well as just not moving. My idea being that unit is disorganised for a turn and so get something like a -1 on their save rolls until their next hero phase. Just something that makes you weigh up the risks a bit more and think a bit more tactically about movement.

Maybe I'm wrong it feels like a lot of what passes for tactics in AoS is who can move their wall of troops up fastest and smash into the opposing wall of troops first, which has it's place sure, but it feels a little one dimensional.

[RuneBrush]

One of the main reasons I can see for not moving when you fail a charge is that it could be used as a "bonus" movement each turn.  If I move my skeletons forward so that they're 7" away from an objective and 12" away from an enemy unit.  My charge (minimum 6" due to the trumpet) means I'll be able to cap the objective with only minimal risk of getting in combat.  In reality a charge being between 2" and 12" is actually more ludicrous, but it makes the game much more interesting.

From a narrative aspect (always my preferred view point), I see it as a "We're not going to make it Sir!" reaction, made in the heat of the battle.

Ultimately I think lots of mechanics are a bit illogical if you really think about them, but no less illogical than flying eels and lightening warriors

[Overread]

Now look here flying eels are very sensible!

 

As for not moving when charging remember Warmachine MKII? In that there was running and charging, but most players never ran, they always declared charges, even when they were on the other side of the table. Because the charge move was nearly always further than their models could run. Of course tricks like that are often not apparent to new players, they are essentially "gaming" the system; doing nothing illegal, just making a better use of game mechanics and tools. However such things are often not apparent to new players so it can create a big skill divide not on actual skill, but on spotting the loopholes. 

 

So it makes sense to me that a failed charge roll could result in your unit not moving instead of moving so that you can't abuse it for extra movement. The point about pile-in distances is also valid - why have a charge roll if many times you'll still get within pile-in  distance. 

 

[Aginor]

Fluff-wise I see it this way:

The unit gets ready to charge and then the guys judge how they feel about it. How far will they make it? How tired are they? (that's the roll).
They compare the result with the enemy units they see, and decide they will not make the charge so they decide to stay together and keep their line ordered and advance for one more round and then see again.

 

From a gameplay perspective I think the important things where already said.

[JPjr]

14 minutes ago, Aginor said:

The unit gets ready to charge and then the guys judge how they feel about it. How far will they make it? How tired are they? (that's the roll).
They compare the result with the enemy units they see, and decide they will not make the charge so they decide to stay together and keep their line ordered and advance for one more round and then see again.

yeah, I can definitely see it like that if you frame it as almost a 'leadership' roll by the unit's boss to get their troops to run into, often, certain death rather than people suddenly forgetting how their feet work

[Overread]

Gameplay wise - the dice roll and its a fail

Lore wise:

The unit readies for the charge against the zombie dragon until the dragon turns and unleashes a putrid blast of breath that flows over the steely warriors; dissolving their resolve as surely as acid would dissolve their armour. It's all the commander can do to keep them in line. The glorious charge that was to happen only moments before is lost; that moment in the battle passed as the dragon has them in its sights and now they cannot charge safely. 

 

The unit commander starts to whip and beat the rats under his command into line; readying them and rallying them and bolstering them with squeaks and cries of foul promises of diseased rewards. The unit is, however, too distracted with looting and skittering and infighting to organise properly. That moment of the charge passes and the unit is still organising itself for the attack; the rabble just never getting it together. 

 

The Stormcast leader gives the order to lock shields; to lower their hammers and prepare to run at the enemy. Cries of "only the faithful" boom out from the warriors; their heavy boots ready to thunder over the battlefield so that they can bring their hammers to bear as the lighting would strike the earth in a storm. Then one fool in the front rank trips on a root and goes down with a thunderous crash; an obstacle that causes his fellows behind and beside to stumble as they try to avoid, help and not trip over their fallen comrade. A few moments later and the organised ranks are in chaos  and its only just in time that they reform enough to hold their position before they are assailed. For them the moment to bring the Glory and Retribution of Sigmar to the enemy in a wondrous charge has passed.

[Carnelian]

8 hours ago, Overread said:

Gameplay wise - the dice roll and its a fail

Lore wise:

The unit readies for the charge against the zombie dragon until the dragon turns and unleashes a putrid blast of breath that flows over the steely warriors; dissolving their resolve as surely as acid would dissolve their armour. It's all the commander can do to keep them in line. The glorious charge that was to happen only moments before is lost; that moment in the battle passed as the dragon has them in its sights and now they cannot charge safely. 

 

The unit commander starts to whip and beat the rats under his command into line; readying them and rallying them and bolstering them with squeaks and cries of foul promises of diseased rewards. The unit is, however, too distracted with looting and skittering and infighting to organise properly. That moment of the charge passes and the unit is still organising itself for the attack; the rabble just never getting it together. 

 

The Stormcast leader gives the order to lock shields; to lower their hammers and prepare to run at the enemy. Cries of "only the faithful" boom out from the warriors; their heavy boots ready to thunder over the battlefield so that they can bring their hammers to bear as the lighting would strike the earth in a storm. Then one fool in the front rank trips on a root and goes down with a thunderous crash; an obstacle that causes his fellows behind and beside to stumble as they try to avoid, help and not trip over their fallen comrade. A few moments later and the organised ranks are in chaos  and its only just in time that they reform enough to hold their position before they are assailed. For them the moment to bring the Glory and Retribution of Sigmar to the enemy in a wondrous charge has passed.

Sounds like a failed dangerous terrain rll by that stormcast! 

[ManlyMuppet88]

The first time I read through the rules I actually thought that you did still move and I liked it. If you fail then the player just has to stop 3” from an enemy so they can’t pile in. It means that those long distance charges do have a greater risk of leaving you outpositioned and I like that risk/reward decision making and the extra pressure it puts on monoeuvering.

I’ve always thought the roll should be a simple pass/fail and then the unit can move a fixed distance (it’s move value) anyway.

[kenshin620]

8 minutes ago, ManlyMuppet88 said:

I’ve always thought the roll should be a simple pass/fail and then the unit can move a fixed distance (it’s move value) anyway.

I think that would make less sense for high speed units. Imagine if the enemy is 5" away, you roll unlucky and roll a 4 but your unit has say movement 10. That could result in some really weird positioning (like actually bubble wrapping the enemy by moving past it but still 3" away)

[ManlyMuppet88]

12 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I think that would make less sense for high speed units. Imagine if the enemy is 5" away, you roll unlucky and roll a 4 but your unit has say movement 10. That could result in some really weird positioning (like actually bubble wrapping the enemy by moving past it but still 3" away)

I mean like units have a “charge roll” requiring a certain result (3+ for example), representing the various explanations above (disorganised, afraid etc) and if they make that roll, they are free to charge up to their movement distance. The roll would be a strict pass/fail roll, not an indicator of how far they can go.

My ideal would actually be to get rid of any kind of roll altogether and just make it a second move but stipulate that it must end in base to base to stop people just using it for positioning. I’ve always found random charge distances weird.

[flemingmma]

A charge roll is not the distance moved its the will to charge that distance

[ManlyMuppet88]

1 hour ago, flemingmma said:

A charge roll is not the distance moved its the will to charge that distance

Meaning it takes more willpower to charge longer distances?

[Kirjava13]

Have you ever run for the bus but not really wanted to catch it?

[flemingmma]

14 hours ago, ManlyMuppet88 said:

Meaning it takes more willpower to charge longer distances?

yep, and you can have surplus willpower and so overcharge to come around behind your target

[Jaze]

I like the willpower idea.

i often think it’s because turn based actions are an abstraction, ie in the movie version the bad guys don’t stand around idly while your guys cast some spells which blow Jeff legs off, then watch you all run at them, yawn as the first 3 volleys of arrows come in and wait for they guys with sharp things to run Upto them and wack them once before waking up and having the few survivors attack back, run off and only then start reacting.

so I like willpower as being where your 3” from the scary dragon and your general screams “Charge” and rolls a double 1, where the grizzled veteran finds somewhere else to be and the rookie curls up in the foetal position.

on longer charges sometimes I consider the battlefield is in motion so your skullmunchers have made a dash to engage some elven archers but those archers have also fallen back to avoid the charge, so no need to move everything.

[Yoshiya]

I think as you say, it's an abstraction. When you think about it, your units don't move 6", stand around and shoot a bit, and then charge. In 'real' life they're running forward, stopping one by one to shoot a bit whilst on the move, and then when their leader deems themselves close enough they start picking up their pace to engage an enemy. However, maybe in the time they've taken to get there, the unit they're running at has flown over their head and is going after their allies behind them, or has run off to support an ally, or even run away themselves in fear behind that building, and now their momentum is lost.

That's what the alternative turns thing is kind of supposed to represent. One force having an advantage at that point in time but both forces technically moving at the same time and having to make decisions on the fly because of it.

A high charge roll in this scenario thus represents the unit having good momentum and moving too fast for the opponents to do anything but stand and brace for impact. Whereas a low charge roll might represent them failing to pick up the pace (maybe due to uneven ground) which breaks their charge so they decide to call it off, or maybe realise that they can't hope to reach that far away unit in time and thus change direction to engage the closer one (hence not needing to announce target beforehand).

Ofc from a rule perspective as people have mentioned it basically just gives units a two D6 run if you let them declare charges.