Lior'Lec Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 2 hours ago, hughwyeth said: I think the internet has helped the hobby tremendously but also means we're all exposed to the absolute best painters and players on a daily basis. That helps to have something to aspire to, but also means it's easy to fall into the trap of "my paint job/game play is nowhere near that good" and think you've therefore fallen short. I feel that is where the rest of your local community (or online one such as here on TGA) really have a chance to shine by giving encouragement and constructive advice to those who start to feel discouraged. There are a few guys at my local store who, like me, are not great painters. When they show me their painted models I always find something positive to say about their work even when it isn’t the kind of style I prefer. For every “you can do better” you need a “you did well”. I paint to a tabletop-minus level. I’m not a great painter, barely mediocre in fact, but that doesn’t discourage me. I went over 20 years without painting minis for any games because I didn’t enjoy painting back then. Now I’ve learned to enjoy painting and I paint my minis because I enjoy it; no other reasons. They aren’t great but I’m proud of my finished work and I had fun doing it. When I see someone else’s amazing work I appreciate their skills (plus mine it for schemes and ideas) without judging my own skills by that standard but have seen plenty of people doing the opposite. My cousin and my children are learning to paint and they want to compare their painting to mine or pictures they find online. My kids will look at what they’ve done and feel discouraged thinking they’ll never get better but I keep encouraging them so that they keep trying. I recently found some minis from the old HeroQuest board game I’d painted back in the early 90’s which a I used to show them that yes they will get better with time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar Rage Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 It reminds me of why I started AoS. I had went through a rough patch in my life, the roughest in fact. Without going into too much detail I was left without a job and unable to interact with people or even write with a pen. Needless to say I had a lot more free time. I found some old Warhammer models and got my hands on some new paints. I just started chipping away at them. The painting really helped me build up my dexterity again in my hands. I have been forced to learn and develop new techniques. Obviously I am not the best painter with my shaky hands. But it has been nice to have a hobby again that lets me track my improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 5 hours ago, hughwyeth said: I think the internet has helped the hobby tremendously but also means we're all exposed to the absolute best painters and players on a daily basis. That helps to have something to aspire to, but also means it's easy to fall into the trap of "my paint job/game play is nowhere near that good" and think you've therefore fallen short. Hahaha it's actually had the opposite effect on me. I already know that I can't compare to the very best of *anything*, painting included. So I've become accustomed to seeing painting skills I can't match, therefore I've lost entirely the notion that I need to be able to match the painting I see or else I've failed (even when it's lesser painting I actually *could* match haha). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Thats why I pay top dollar to people that have won painting awards at the large scale. I hate painting or hobbying, but I want my army to look as good as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamose Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 I have seen this article discussed so many times in so many contexts by so many different people I have to think it struck a nerve (or chord as the case may be). I also can't think of a better article for Americans to read! We regularly work ourselves into the hospital and seem proud of it. We feel guilty about not being at work for any reason. Work is so important to us that it is the second question you're asked when meeting someone for the first time and being unemployed or underemployed is a major cause of stress, depression, and suicide here. So it makes sense that we'd turn our leisure time into work, I suppose. Working is all we know how to do. Thankfully most reactions have been a light bulb going off and an "Oh yeah!" moment. Many people read it and seem to realize that maybe they've been taking their hobby too seriously. Sometimes a person can become so involved in something that they lose perspective and it becomes stressful. Its good to step back and check if your leisure time is actually leisurely. My "Philosophy of Hobbying" (so pretentious!) really has nothing to do with improvement or competition. I think its important that my hobby is relaxing and enjoyable. Nothing more or less than that. I should want to do it and I should want to go back to it after time away. In fact, I personally believe that the entire purpose of working and a career is simply to have the resources so that you and your loved ones can be healthy and happy enough to truly enjoy the time away from work. Work is secondary and it does not define who I am because its not a voluntary activity. I have to do it. Now that doesn't mean that I don't try to win when I play games (that is one of the goals of a game of Warhammer after all) or that I haven't improved as a painter, gamer, or hobbyist. I have simply accepted that if I enjoy something, I will participate in that activity regularly. By simple virtue of hobbying regularly and enjoying what I'm doing, I will improve my skills. I know I won't improve at the same rate as someone who makes a job out of it but its not a race. If I really want to learn something specific, I know how to go about educating myself but the hobby does not exist to prove to others how good I am at gaming and painting. If I realize that I'm stressing over my hobby then I know its time to take a break. Why would I spend my free time getting frustrated and angry over something I am choosing to do? In fact, the phrase "taking my hobby seriously" seems like an oxymoron to me. On a related note, I just discovered that there are dinosaur emojis!! ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirjava13 Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 10 hours ago, Kamose said: Why would I spend my free time getting frustrated and angry over something I am choosing to do? Exhibit A in the case of Why I Stopped Playing Blood Bowl On PC, your honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephisto Posted October 21, 2018 Author Share Posted October 21, 2018 There are a lot of great responses here and I'm proud of the discussion going on here. I've half a mind to respond individually to each person but I'm out of town (at a Tournament, of all things) and typing that much with my thumbs is simply not something I have the foritude for. I'll share the sort of eureka moment I just had though. Reading through I saw something crystalize. I think it's healthy to pursue being better. Lamenting that you're not the best or not perfect is a bad trap to fall into though. Isn't that the goal? To just... Be better? Better players. Better painters. Better people. We have the power to look at the people further along the path of improvement than us and use their examples as short cuts in our own journey. We may never catch them but as long as we're always moving forward, I think that's worthy. Be awesome to each other, everyone. Keep the discussion up. I'll have a proper keyboard back soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronWilson Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 For me the hobby is nothing but pure escapism, I like to compete and do well but end of the day it's little plastic toy soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Mayhem Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I like playing to win, but I wouldn’t do it at the expense of both players having fun. My Legions of Nagash army isn’t particularly optimised either which probably helps.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjnoronh Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 10/20/2018 at 6:53 PM, Kirjava13 said: Exhibit A in the case of Why I Stopped Playing Blood Bowl On PC, your honour. Play Goblins and don't try to score - just try to kill players I have a 0.500 Goblin team with that approach. Lots of concedes after I gang foul a treeman or chaos warrior into an injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshiya Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/21/2018 at 12:57 PM, Mephisto said: Isn't that the goal? To just... Be better? Better players. Better painters. Better people. We have the power to look at the people further along the path of improvement than us and use their examples as short cuts in our own journey. We may never catch them but as long as we're always moving forward, I think that's worthy. I think this is worth highlighting. As you say, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be better. The problem comes from wanting to the the best. I know I'll never be the best painter in the world. Heck I've already seen someone on this forum paint their army in the same colours as me (thought I was so unique too :G) and they are the better painter. Upon first seeing I was a bit crushed. Knowing someone out their had basically the same army but better was a bit off-putting. But then I realised "so what?". I've had fun painting my models and I'm proud of them. Ive already noticed improvements in my own painting as I've gone along too and I'm getting better results for less time invested now. That feeling completely overcomes the sense that maybe I'm not the best out there and I feel far more attached to my models knowing their MY best work rather than THE best work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexHavoc Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I actually get insanely jealous over certain blogs I find online. I love ditching facebook for a night and cruising round the interwebs to find those hidden blogs kept by people who clearly having more fun than I am with the hobby. I'm hesitant to call the painting 'bad' as its not, no painting is bad, but its not the kind of painting you see shown off on facebook, the GW page, showcased on instagram etc. It's usually very basic or at least very sloppy. These folks are able to knock a unit out over a weekend and have them used in games that evening. They are not posting their work on multiple pages looking for likes and validation. They usually have a very 90s/early 2000s feel to it all- home made terrain, lots of dryrbushing, crazy conversions (I'd expect if they did post their work on facebook it would become a cess pit of 'two thin coats' & '0/10 duncan' memes- which I can't stand, even in good humour. It's scummy) I must be the complete opposite to the people that get jealous over the higher end of stuff like competition level models and stuff from painting studios, the ones airbrushing everything and having a brand new model painted by lunchtime on release day. I suffer from 'I've spent a fortune on these models, if its not 104% perfect it no good and ends up in the tub of shame' and it kills me every time. I only play at home and I only show models off online as a form of socialising (I'm a bit of a recluse) so have no real reason to need every thing to be painted in forum quality or above (other than my own enjoyment). I'd love to be able to just knock some models out and get them on the table (or even just on the shelf). After almost 30 years of buying models and only having around 100 painted and complete, I'd pay for being able to finally accept mediocrity in my hobby. I do think part of the problem is that not enough of the hobby is celebrated. The painting section is rather quiet (lots of people posting work, not many commenters) Facebook has this weird problem that people will only comment on the absolute best and the absolute worse things posted, those regular everyday hobby posts never get a lot of reactions and disappear down the feed quickly. Yet meme type posts, arguments and complaint threads gain so much attention. I think if we celebrated the more creative side of the hobby a lot more, more people would feel happier to share their work, even if they are not at the level that has become the base standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPjr Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 2 hours ago, RexHavoc said: I do think part of the problem is that not enough of the hobby is celebrated. especially when you consider that for probably a large % of people involved they probably spend a hell of a lot more time assembling and painting their models than actually playing with them. I love seeing how other people convert their models or just do these fabulous little details with their bases. Especially something like Endless Spells which are not just great fun to paint but are one of the few things where every army has access to the same things and you can see how people are then adapting them to their army/realm's themes. I don't collect Deepkin but part of me was really tempted to turn the Purple Sun into a Spiny Sea Urchin. I used to be an absolute awful painter, the handful I actually managed back in the 80s/v. early 90s at best looked like they'd been dunked headfirst in a bucket of Dulux paint and that was it. But I'm really, really love painting them now, I'm really not very good at all but as a meditative exercise its wonderful, beats running and yoga for me, incredible how much you can lose yourself in it. Especially if you can focus on the journey rather than the end result it's such a nice way to spend an afternoon (and thanks to things like YouTube tutorials I don't think it's ever been easier to get half decent models done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I think official GW channels do a lot to promote the hobby aspects a lot more than gaming aspects, there aren’t a lot of tactics article from readers in WD but there’s always readers models and the Slayer Sword seems to carry a bit more kudos than a Throne of Skulls. Internet wise for painting and hobby it might be a bit more platform specific. You’ll get loads more likes on Instagram but I’ve found people far more willing to offer advice and tips on Twitter. On comparison of my painting I tend to only do it with my own work it see how I’m improving. That’s not to say I don’t appreciate or enjoy the work of others I just prefer to judge myself by my own standards. Though I’m more than happy to borrow the techniques of others if they are willing to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul7926 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 It's taken me a long time to realise that the fun I had playing wargames as a teenager was down to the company, the narrative and the time spent in the game. Way back then it was historical and we didn't have a ton of disposable money so there was no 'new unit released this month' or tailoring your army by swapping in and out loads of different options. We all had an army and that's what we used game after game after game. Over the years I went all the way down the rabbit hole to the point where rule research, number crunching and designing the killer list was what the hobby became to me. This is not just for GW products but all of them. I must have spent hundreds more hours trying to concoct the 'best' list with the 'best' tactics than actually playing the games. I can't even say it was fun in hindsight. Luckily now I'm a lot older and I have less need to win things and crush everyone else I'm enjoying playing games again. The bunch of people I occasionally play with have also either come to the same conclusion or had it all along and just waited for some of us to wise up. So we all have the same goal when we do get to meet up and play. For the painting side of things I suffer from knowing I'll not match the best painters out there. It's silly reason not to paint but it does stop me. Especially on expensive centre piece models that in some cases I'll not even assemble because I don't want to 'mess them up'. There is even more irony to pile on top of that because when I do actually get into the mood and paint something people tell me it's good. Not comp winning good but above tabletop good. Instead of inspiring me to paint more that actually makes me paint less as I end up with some sort of 'Impostor Syndrome' thing going in. I don't rate my painting so if others actually believe it to be good then it must have been a fluke so I better not do any more because then it will be obvious I'm not a good painter when the next one is rubbish. Weird thing is I know that makes no sense but it still somehow stops me painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexHavoc Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Ollie Grimwood said: from readers in WD but there’s always readers models This will probably be a controversial view, but I actually think that this is another problem with the hobby. If you look at what GW print in the readers models, though there are exceptions, the vast majority of 'readers models' are: From the same handful of familiar names, most notable people that have ties with GW Very similar in style and application Aesthetically 'current' models Of course, not everything holds up to that, there have been several exceptions. And I completely get it- GW uses white dwarf as an advertising platform and they have a strict style that they want to stick too. But I feel that it does cause people to hold unrealistic expectations and it certainly puts people off from painting or showing off models. Thankfully, the Blanchitsu articles do allow more creative freedom and have show cased some brilliant work that moves away from GW advertised style, but sadly it does also come with its own problems- namely the very small vocal minority that have an elitist outlook to what they perceive as 'their corner' of the hobby. The constant bombardment of the GW style really does stifle creativity and has people chasing the best work they can. Which is fine, that alone is a part of the hobby in itself, but for those of us that struggle to distinguish between 'average/good' and 'chasing perfection' in our own minds, it becomes a hurdle. I much preferred white dwarf in the Paul 'fat bloke' sawyer days. His tales of articles were always my favourite and the current run of tales just felt so bland and clinical compared to his offerings. They used to show off painting that felt like they had the personal touch of the people painting them. I get that times have changes, paints have improved and techniques have been easier to learn via the internet. But All these things can push this hobby to become full time work, which not everyone wants. But it's hard to not get dragged into it when people are constantly telling you: Practice more, two thin coats, it's easy with washes, GW videos make it so easy... etc. I've seen people leave facebook hobby groups after mere minutes after posting work that isn't up to what the community judge to be the base GW style standard. You're right about instagram though. I was convinced by a couple of people to start posting there, after a couple of poor incidents on facebook groups. It's great for likes/validation, but it's so very hard to forge a meaningful conversation on there. 2 hours ago, paul7926 said: Weird thing is I know that makes no sense but it still somehow stops me painting. I totally get what you mean. I'm the exact same. If I was too write down all the reasons that I have for not painting my minis I would sound like I was off my rocker. But its so very difficult to convince your brain of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 @RexHavoc yeah there is a distinct GW style and WD does tend to feature very high standard work however it isn’t just WD GW does feature hobbyists miniatures in the Webstore and there’s a much wider variety of styles on show. I’m not sure your assessment of GWs painting tutorials and system is entirely fair. 30 years ago 10 year old me would have given you a great big hug if you’d shown me the things those videos do. I would agree they do things the GW way however they do show a way of doing it that is achievable and then people can move on from there. I know they’ve shown me how to do things I’d been struggling with for years. I would agree very much that GW style should not be seen as the only way of doing things All that said the drybrushing they show in the paint app doesn’t really show how versatile it can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjnoronh Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 @RexHavoc regarding when was the 'golden era' of White Dwarf I'll refer you to the following tweet and attached article it links to by Gav Thorpe. I started in 1990 and loved it back in that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueshirtman Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 9 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said: I think official GW channels do a lot to promote the hobby aspects a lot more than gaming aspects, there aren’t a lot of tactics article from readers in WD but there’s always readers models and the Slayer Sword seems to carry a bit more kudos than a Throne of Skulls. Internet wise for painting and hobby it might be a bit more platform specific. You’ll get loads more likes on Instagram but I’ve found people far more willing to offer advice and tips on Twitter. On comparison of my painting I tend to only do it with my own work it see how I’m improving. That’s not to say I don’t appreciate or enjoy the work of others I just prefer to judge myself by my own standards. Though I’m more than happy to borrow the techniques of others if they are willing to share. Well that is that, but also the hobby parts has much greater limitations. It is easier to find a good army, with easy game play, like lets say eel spam, and learn how to use it well and have succes mastering it. Painting or converting on the other hand has tiers. If you lack the manual skill or imagination, your army will never be the best. And a lot of people don't want to do stuff they can't master, it would be a waste of time to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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