So, did Daughters of Khaine and Idoneth Deepkin sell poorly

[Overread]

Hey I prefer the other head! 

*still waiting for the Slaanesh update*

[Aeryenn]

51 minutes ago, Nos said:

Bless you if you think gender inequality is a Western problem.

AOS is hardly a good example of a non western culturally inspired fiction. But it dosent have to be and I'm not saying that at all. 

There was not a word in my post regarding gender.

I just want to stress that none fantasy world will satisfy people of every origin, faith, orientation, race, gender. If it can't, then raising a problem with women being depicted too undressed and slim or whatever isn't any better than asking GW to cover as much of their body as muslim women are obliged. Please don't tell me that you don't care what muslims think because it will be pure racism. Either we take all problems and inequalities into consideration or none. That's fair. Or either we say it's a Western game for Western people and we are to decide what is important and what isn't. Not those few billion people living outside of US and EU. 

With that awful picture in mind, of a world that can offend everyone with everything, I'd rather say: leave it to the author. If his work doesn't appeal you, sure you can talk to him or others about your concerns but in the end it shouldn't be extortion on him/her. If he wants sexy skinny women in his game so be it. 

[hughwyeth]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

You may not like it, but this is the ideal female (and male) body. 

I'm sick of Slaanesh's follower's ludicrously unrealistic body types. What about those of use who look more like this:

(This is a photo of me in the morning taken by my wife).

 

The great unclean one is my spirit animal and it has as much right to be an ideal body type as your keeper of secrets. I've reported you. 

[Kyriakin]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

You may not like it, but this is the ideal female (and male) body. 

Finecast is never sexy.

[Overread]

That's why you scour ebay for a metal one!

[Aeryenn]

I wonder if it's true about Fyreslayers and if it is, will GW 'abandon' them and they won't receive new units. It's a vicious circle. No new units - less sales. - less sales - less new content. Opposite to stormcasts: they release new units - people buy them - there are more and more stormcast owners - gw think stormcasts are popular and release new units - back to start. 

[King Taloren]

*non mod hat on*  Guys this thread has been seriously derailed. 

@Nos find me elves that are representative of multiple female  body types in any media. Go ahead I’ll wait. LOTR, Pathfinder, DnD, anime, romance novels, ******... anywhere. 

Honestly the discussion is coming off as making you sound like a SJW just trying to cause drama. If people want it I’msure GW would make it. But don’t expect a company to bend over backwards for a small minority that makes little impact in overall sales.  Honestly, ifevery transgender, homosexual and equal gender opportunist player and their friends boycotted GW over not enough representation I doubt there would be much decline in sales barely a percent

[Kirjava13]

6 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

SJW

Ding ding ding! 

Restart the clock.

[Kramer]

32 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Honestly, ifevery transgender, homosexual and equal gender opportunist player and their friends boycotted GW over not enough representation I doubt there would be much decline in sales barely a percent

So close! I was (roughly) with you argument wise. Although the tone a bit less. But personal, so fair play.

but you final argument is of course irrelevant to the conversation.* Your taking the position of the company. But you conversation is with someone else. The argument that it doesn’t make sense for GW has no impact on his perception or relevance to his arguments. 

* at least in my mind. 

[Mr. White]

I fear treading into this, but oh well...

DoK, aren't representative of all females, just the followers of Morathi, which require a certain athleticism to be an effective member of the cult. Much like Ironjawz seem to be made up of ripped up and swole orruks. Does that mean all orruks in gw-fantasy land are ripped like this? No, but to be part of the Ironjawz you need to be. Much like most NFL wide receivers have similar builds. Most Linemen have similar builds. The players have body types that assist with the role, so to are the models physical manifestations of what the fluff would necessitate to be effective.

GW has recently done a great job diversifying sex across their lines. Female stormcasts...none posed or dressed provocatively. Female gangers in Necromunda beyond the all-girl Escher gang. Again, all sensibly dressed and posed. Sylvaneth has a large portion of the army made up of females.  Sexual preference? One can use their own headcanon to assign sexual preference to any model in the game...this isn't something GW should try to sculpt as it can't go well.

Back to DoK and Morathi, I actually thought it was cool that the lady on the cover and the image of Morathi actually had a non-genre body types. Both have ****** smaller, and flatter, than most fantasy art depicts. They looked far more natural than standard genre art. This is great! So even if they are mostly unarmored, it seemed to me that they looked more like an unarmored real athlete would...ironic since it is fantasy land here, but at least  they are trying. And that's the rub. If they try (and maybe fail) is it better to run down the attempt or applaud to help encourage further positive development? I mean there's  a lot of improvement in these two images . DoK has a much more realistic breast to waist ratio than our friend the old glamrock witch elf.

Is the better option to just not have any sort of lithe, female warrior in the game? Avoid the whole issue. I hope not. Is it realistic to create molds of every body type for every unit type in the game? I'm guessing no. Would it even make sense to do that in alignment with the fluff? No.

Personally, I wouldn't play DoK at the moment because I've got young kids (boy and girl) at home and the DoK battletome is just a bit too graphic. At the same time, I've removed all the beheaded heads and such off the khorne models to make the game a little more 'PG' to play with my son and friends. this is all in my power though. GW is doing a fine job. It's up to us the consumer to play or not. convert or not.

Dinging the guy for saying 'SJW' is lame. I'm not happy with what SJW has become. I mean, I think we'll find that most want social justice...it's a good thing. But unfortunately, this term has come to label those on the extreme ends by those on one side, and those on the other bait folks into saying it as if to discredit anything they might say. The term has unfortunately lost its usefulness.

[King Taloren]

My problem with the SJW tag is that it’s something that has become aligned with Mob justice. Only difference between them is one isn’t using a physical noose. People should be treated as fairly as everyone else and held to the same accountability and standard. Something I will vehemently agree with everyday of the week. But often I see it come to we hold you to the standard and everything we do is excused because you were wrong first or we caught you doing that.

 

 

but back on things there is plenty of representation of other genders and great looking sculpts coming out of GW. Sigmar is only three years old. Give it time to build up more and see what else comes. Who knows what the angel and demon. Aelves will look like.

[Enoby]

Y'know, I find it quite interesting that a thread which started out about how well two factions were doing financially has turned into a discussion about gender representation in Warhammer because one of those factions are overwhelmingly female. 

 

Not criticizing people who brought it up or continue to discuss it, but I just think it's interesting. 

[Kramer]

34 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Y'know, I find it quite interesting that a thread which started out about how well two factions were doing financially has turned into a discussion about gender representation in Warhammer because one of those factions are overwhelmingly female. 

 

Not criticizing people who brought it up or continue to discuss it, but I just think it's interesting. 

Haha, apparently so do the rest  

[Nos]

2 hours ago, Mr. White said:

I fear treading into this, but oh well...

DoK, aren't representative of all females, just the followers of Morathi, which require a certain athleticism to be an effective member of the cult. Much like Ironjawz seem to be made up of ripped up and swole orruks. Does that mean all orruks in gw-fantasy land are ripped like this? No, but to be part of the Ironjawz you need to be. Much like most NFL wide receivers have similar builds. Most Linemen have similar builds. The players have body types that assist with the role, so to are the models physical manifestations of what the fluff would necessitate to be effective.

GW has recently done a great job diversifying sex across their lines. Female stormcasts...none posed or dressed provocatively. Female gangers in Necromunda beyond the all-girl Escher gang. Again, all sensibly dressed and posed. Sylvaneth has a large portion of the army made up of females.  Sexual preference? One can use their own headcanon to assign sexual preference to any model in the game...this isn't something GW should try to sculpt as it can't go well.

Back to DoK and Morathi, I actually thought it was cool that the lady on the cover and the image of Morathi actually had a non-genre body types. Both have ****** smaller, and flatter, than most fantasy art depicts. They looked far more natural than standard genre art. This is great! So even if they are mostly unarmored, it seemed to me that they looked more like an unarmored real athlete would...ironic since it is fantasy land here, but at least  they are trying. And that's the rub. If they try (and maybe fail) is it better to run down the attempt or applaud to help encourage further positive development? I mean there's  a lot of improvement in these two images . DoK has a much more realistic breast to waist ratio than our friend the old glamrock witch elf.

Is the better option to just not have any sort of lithe, female warrior in the game? Avoid the whole issue. I hope not. Is it realistic to create molds of every body type for every unit type in the game? I'm guessing no. Would it even make sense to do that in alignment with the fluff? No.

Personally, I wouldn't play DoK at the moment because I've got young kids (boy and girl) at home and the DoK battletome is just a bit too graphic. At the same time, I've removed all the beheaded heads and such off the khorne models to make the game a little more 'PG' to play with my son and friends. this is all in my power though. GW is doing a fine job. It's up to us the consumer to play or not. convert or not.

Dinging the guy for saying 'SJW' is lame. I'm not happy with what SJW has become. I mean, I think we'll find that most want social justice...it's a good thing. But unfortunately, this term has come to label those on the extreme ends by those on one side, and those on the other bait folks into saying it as if to discredit anything they might say. The term has unfortunately lost its usefulness.

So bringing the term up is surely a pretty lame thing to do then no? If it's not useful? Why do it?

I take your points but again I expressly said I never had an issue with the level of exposure on show, it's more the vacuum of concept that just leaves a lithe lady which is the issue.  

Nor did I suggest GW were mendacious in their presentation of gender. They're still massively disproportionate in their favour of males of course but they have improved on this exponentially in the past few years and their presentation of females where they occur is usually tasteful. I never said otherwise though.

Not ditecting this at you but I daresay One of the reasons this thread has gone so off tangent is because some people arent actually reading what people said and responding to straw man arguments that no-one is making.

[Lord Veshnakar]

I personally feel that stating Daughters of Khaine being lithe/skinny/sexualized and not showing any physical diversity is being insensitive etc. would be akin to being upset that there are no Orruks in Bonesplitters that aren't muscle bound with dad-bods, or that there aren't any duardin without beards. It's a fantasy race that doesn't adhere to typical body types. They aren't human.  For all we know aelves might not even store fat the same way humans do, or have any sort of physical diversity. In fact in all my history of playing elves, the fact that they are all lithe and tall is a characteristic of the race.  

[Overread]

Heck go back to full rank and file days and most Warhammer models were pretty much all identical save for a few slight adjustments to pose. Even now many models in most game ranges are very similar. The only ones that are not are oftne skirmish games where the company is expecting you to buy perhaps 5 models per side in a battle; so each one is closer to a character and quite unique rather than a core troop where most are the same. 

[Mr. White]

1 hour ago, Nos said:

I take your points but again I expressly said I never had an issue with the level of exposure on show, it's more the vacuum of concept that just leaves a lithe lady which is the issue. 

I hear, ya, but we could look at any of these armies as a concept in a vacuum and find fault. But they aren't meant to be viewed that way. It certainly doesn't do the setting any justice and is unfair to all of the world building GW and its artists have done.

On their own, outside of any context, all the armies look a bit silly and immature.

Each faction is focused on an exaggerated concept. It allows them to be distinct from one another. This has to be for the game to work. They each need their own, easily identifiable silhouette for gamers to more easily parse during gameplay. Too much variance within each line and they run the risk of their distinct look.

On the hobby side, if one aesthetic doesn't appeal, or you're bored of it, there are many other options to choose from. All with their own homogeneous, over-the-top approach. Silly on one hand,  great for keeping hobby interest up on the other, and make sense as part of the artistic fabric of the Mortal Realms.

You're bummed not to have a DoK army. I get it. They are the Order army that appeals the most to me as well, but under current circumstance I'm not building an army of them (would love a NightVault warband though!).  Still, this is on me and not GW doing anything wrong here or mishandling the line in comparison to their other factions.

But maybe I'm totally misreading the critique.

[rokapoke]

45 minutes ago, Mr. White said:

On their own, outside of any context, all the armies look a bit silly and immature.

I disagree! There is nothing "silly" or "immature" about laser-bearing dinosaurs!

 

[Overread]

A lot of people are still waiting for GW to release the Exodite Eldar!

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exodite

[Tiger]

Considering GW brought to life ADmech, Genesteallers, Harlequins, Specialist games, even a nod to Squats, let me have some hope of seeing Exodite Eldar in my life. 

[Overread]

Just now, Tiger said:

Considering GW brought to life ADmech, Genesteallers, Specialist games, even a nod to Squats, let me have some hope of seeing Exodite Eldar in my life. 

I dunno its pretty 80s stuff that is Dinosaurs with Lasers! I mean perhaps if we can get some metal music back into GW we might see some of that happening! 

 

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

You spend a bit of time away from the forum due to a funeral and being ill and things get a bit out of hand. Whilst I love Dinosaurs with Laserbeams as much as the next person, this topic is way off tangent and has behaviour we don't want in TGA. I'm Locking this now