AoS 2 - Troggoth Discussion

[Donal]

Hi all,

So for those of you who prefer to vomit rather than use fists, spears or hakkas and with the release of AoS 2, now is the time for us to start talking about how we can make Troggoths great.

Moving forward, this will be the main thread to chat about and discuss Troggoths in the new edition. 

It's my hope that we can persuade GW to Make Troggoths Great (again?), or at least, battleline if you have a troggoth allegiance.

If Chaos Dwarves can get abilities, then Troggoths can be battleline.

[Donal]

So i'm thinking that this is the way to go for a 2k list:

Allegiance: Destruction
Troggoth Hag (380)
Troggoth Hag (380)
6 x Fellwater Troggoths (320)
6 x Fellwater Troggoths (320)
6 x SourbreathTroggoths (320)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1760 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104


Would love some suggestions on what Allies make sense? Should Moonclan ally with Troggoths?

[Oreaper84]

I like the idea maybe get the ole Thrott back in the fold for a nice character piece. I'd say that forest/wilderness/mountian would make the easiest picks. Your spiderfang/moonclan/ale guzzler...but if it were me from a fluff stand point only gargants make sense, but the whole monsters theme fits better with chaos though

 

[Skabnoze]

17 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

I like the idea maybe get the ole Thrott back in the fold for a nice character piece. 

You mean Throgg?  The Chaos Troll King?

Chaos still has a generic Troll King as a hero option.  I would very much like to see GW copy his warscroll into Destruction Troggoths as well as for Chaos.  His original model was fantastic but it is no longer available.  He is one of the few remaining old school models that I don't have that I am waiting for them to reprint as a Legends release.

I would like at a minimum for GW to either add the Troggoth King into Destruction as a hero and then add a battleline-if ability for Troggoths when he is your general or else they can add that to the Troggoth Hag.  I don't see that being very likely for the Hag simply because Forgeworld does not seem to make those types of abilities unless they also sell the battleline-if models (such as with Fimir).

I was thinking of just using Fimir for battleline with their general and converting up some Trolls to use in place of the Fimir models.  For now that seems to be the closest that we can get outside of using Ogors or some other type of battleline.

[heywoah_twitch]

I said I would post here in a show of support, and so I am posting here to show my support.

Trogg battleline if hag general, and un-nerf the hag!

[Vasshpit]

When Idoneth were being teases "officially " there was mention made of "deepwater" Troggoth. 

I'd bet we see this at some point.

Personally I want to see Troggs be on par with Morghast in regards to model size and threat level. 

2 per kit.

I'd also like a duel hero kit that builds either a king or hag. 

Maybe like a swarmy nurgling style vultureesque style critter that follows them around. Not really as pets but more as scavengers. 

This could make a simple faction but still fully playable. Fitting in my eyes for a Troggs faction. 

[amysrevenge]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

[Malakree]

Personally I'd be running emerald lifeswarm rather than geminids.

More healing just accentuates what they already have and the risk of a geminid being thrown back at you is far to huge.

By the same token the pendulum is a way better option imo. As troggoths you want to turn the game into a slow burn attrition war and being able to dump d6 mortals onto key enemy stuff is important.

I'd also look at the shackles, gravetide, prismatic wall and quicksilver swords.

Each of those brings some interesting and useful tools for slowing the game down.

With this in mind I'd look at a fungoid and third hag.

[NemoVonUtopia]

What are people's experiences with troggoths? I'm considering a list with 6 fellwater troggoths and a hag with firmir for a swamp army. I'm wondering if I could add more troggoths and monsters and have it do well or if I will need to add grots for screening and objectives.

[Donal]

22 hours ago, Malakree said:

Personally I'd be running emerald lifeswarm rather than geminids.

More healing just accentuates what they already have and the risk of a geminid being thrown back at you is far to huge.

By the same token the pendulum is a way better option imo. As troggoths you want to turn the game into a slow burn attrition war and being able to dump d6 mortals onto key enemy stuff is important.

I'd also look at the shackles, gravetide, prismatic wall and quicksilver swords.

Each of those brings some interesting and useful tools for slowing the game down.

With this in mind I'd look at a fungoid and third hag.

I dont think lifeswarm is right decision. They already heal d3 per turn. So if they have taken 1-2 wounds then they will heal that. Therefore life swarm will only help them if they have taken 2-3 wounds AND they only get 1-2 wounds back from their ability.

Geminids - yes they can be thrown back, but a) you can stay out of range, b) don't move them near where you plan on moving the troggoths. I like using geminids for board control. 

Definitely agree the pendumlum has hope.

Not a huge fan of shackles for them. Fungoid is probably more consistent than hag for spell casting,

[Skabnoze]

32 minutes ago, Donal said:

Not a huge fan of shackles for them. Fungoid is probably more consistent than hag for spell casting,

Why is this?  The Deffcap mushroom is a once-per-game ability and in my experience it is mainly used to cast an extra spell rather than for the casting rerolls.

It seems to me that the Hag and the Fungoid are pretty equivalent spell casters in most turns of the game since neither of them inherently have any bonuses to casting rolls.  The standard Moonclan Shaman is another story though.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

I'm currently building a Moonclan-Troggoths force. Just 1k at the moment. Aiming towards:

Moonclan Warboss w/ great cave squig

Fungoid Shaman

40 Moonclan Grots with stabbas

20 Moonclan Gots with bows

3 Fanatics

3 Fellwater Troggoths 

3 Fellwater Troggoths 

I've always enjoyed the aesthetic of the small Grots mixed with the monstrous  Troggoths. In my mind the Moonclan find the Troggoths in the "lower mountains"; underground lakes, swampy subterranean mushroom fields, and bodies of water/swamps  near cave entrances (e.g. LotR Misty Mountains entrance).

For a while I've thought that it would be nice if the would just add a Leader upgrade cost for Factions like Troggoths, Maneaters, etc. Pay X points to upgrade a model to a Leader with +1 wound and + 1 attack, or whatever. I just don't like the Troll Hag model and concept.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Donal said:

I dont think lifeswarm is right decision. They already heal d3 per turn. So if they have taken 1-2 wounds then they will heal that. Therefore life swarm will only help them if they have taken 2-3 wounds AND they only get 1-2 wounds back from their ability.

So life-swarm can potentially resurrect dead trolls which on a unit that already heals themselves is pretty dirty. 

Plus you are running multiple troggoth hags who heal D6 and have 14 wounds. It means if you lose priority and have a hag who is low wounds you can try to top her up, if she survives the enemies turn on 1 wound that's massive.

As I said, it accentuates what you are already doing.

1 hour ago, Donal said:

Geminids - yes they can be thrown back, but a) you can stay out of range, b) don't move them near where you plan on moving the troggoths. I like using geminids for board control. 

Not a huge fan of shackles for them.

Shackles is only 20 points compared to the geminids 40 and it does what you are trying to do with them far better. Remember that not only can shackles not be sent back at you, so is far lower risk and better zone control, but it triggers in every movement phase not just theirs.

1 hour ago, Donal said:

Fungoid is probably more consistent than hag for spell casting,

Only if you have something that you absolutely must get down on a specific turn, cogs for Ironjawz Alphastrike is a good example. The main thing is that the fungoid is a fraction of the points and really annoying to get rid of, at 80 points you can get 2 instead of 3 troggoths.

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Why is this?  The Deffcap mushroom is a once-per-game ability and in my experience it is mainly used to cast an extra spell rather than for the casting rerolls.

It seems to me that the Hag and the Fungoid are pretty equivalent spell casters in most turns of the game since neither of them inherently have any bonuses to casting rolls.  The standard Moonclan Shaman is another story though.

Well if you ignore the reroll, then yeah, he's not more consistent. 

But you shouldn't ignore the reroll.  It's what makes him more consistent!

[Skabnoze]

35 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Well if you ignore the reroll, then yeah, he's not more consistent. 

But you shouldn't ignore the reroll.  It's what makes him more consistent!

Yes but if you want a better spellcaster for cheap then you should probably look into the standard Moonclan shaman.  The madcap mushrooms means that you usually have +2 to cast and he costs the same amount of points.

[PlasticCraic]

Yep, I wouldn't disagree.  Especially in unbind meta.  I do like both Moonclan options.

But the original comment was saying the Fungoid is more consistent that the Hag, which is factually correct.  

[Skabnoze]

7 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yep, I wouldn't disagree.  Especially in unbind meta.  I do like both though.

Oh I don’t dislike the Fungoid either.  He has advantages and I expect his use will increase substantially when Moonclan gets a dedicated spell lore.  But as it stands right now the normal Moonclan shaman is a better first choice as a pure wizard.

[Vasshpit]

 

GW gas had many iterations on the design of said creatures so whats everyones favorite Troggoth model design?

Mine has to be the one from Skull pass. (Aka: the current sSourbreath Troggs)

If the could turn that design up to 11 I'd be one happy customer. 

2nd would have to be the old metal river trolls. 

[PlasticCraic]

Sorry @Vasshpit but I'm going to be Captain Obvious and say the current plastic Fellwater kit. 

I think that's head and shoulder above the rest personally.

[Vasshpit]

@PlasticCraic

The newest are alright in my book. 

They have some great anatomical features but for the most part they're just too goofy for me...

Along with the FCS.

[PlasticCraic]

Yeah I know what you mean.  In a vacuum (or in the right army) they are amazing, but they would not sit well next to serious looking stuff like Fimir for example.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

From a competitive standpoint, unless you want a unit that can destroy hordes, Fimir Warriors are better in almost every way. The ability to be battleline, have synergy, cheaper and a passive mortal wound and shooting protection overshadows Trolls, which is a shame as I really like them. Trolls should have at least 5 wounds imo. And quite frankly, there not much trolls do that Ogres can't do either, atm. Running both Fimir and Ogres covers everything a troll does and better.

[meet.the.doctor]

One funny thing I have noticed is that only Fellwater Ts are on 50mm base now. Both Rockgut and Sourbreath are on 40mm.

Anyone plays the Too Dumb to Die boys?

is this advantage or disadvantage? What do you think?

[Donal]

9 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Oh I don’t dislike the Fungoid either.  He has advantages and I expect his use will increase substantially when Moonclan gets a dedicated spell lore.  But as it stands right now the normal Moonclan shaman is a better first choice as a pure wizard.

Not sure i think hes a better first choice. If there is a turn that you need to get a spell off, then fungoid is better as you have a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1.

Don't get me wrong, i think running both is better (and am in my moonclan list where I also run the hag). On average cave shaman will roll a 1 once a game, in which case fungoid is great as a support for his once a game ability. 

 

[PlasticCraic]

@Donal you are right, since you auto fail 16.7% of the time with the Moonclan Shaman that has a big impact. 

Mathematically, the chance of getting a 6+ spell off with the Fungoid (having a reroll) is higher than with a +2 to cast, but auto failing on a 1. 

Where it gets tricky is that the +2 has less chance of getting unbound (and he can eat his mushroom every turn).

Personally I take a Fungoid regularly, because his  double rerollable cast is clutch in that key first or second hero phase. A single Shammy will likely fail you at just that moment over a 5 game event which could cost you a win. 

Getting off Mystic AND a second spell is massive for his points...I also love his Command Ability. 

But in an unbind meta, I could see why people might not write off the classic Shammy.