AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[Joseph Mackay]

Hearthguard Berzerker nerfs we’re needed and I’m happy with them, however I’m not happy with the nerfs to everything else that just makes Hearthguard spam still the most ‘competitive’ list  Hearthguard spam needs to go away, not become the only option 

[Doko]

Hearthguard didnt need a nerf(8'8 damage for 135 points when namarti for 130 have 17 damage or grave guard for 140 have 15 damage), they had worse damage than similar units as tradeoff for the extra tankiness.

The change to wholy wiithin 9" have killed them because it is almost imposible get 15 models with base 30 and after charge and pile in in range of a hero that hadnt chargued.

The good solution for someome that know how do his job was buff vulkites so they are at the level of hearthguard. But we have seem that this team that did the fyreslayer tome dont know how do his job and nerfed a balanced unit as hearthguard and destroyed a bad unit as vulkites

[Eternalis]

39 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Others are saying it might also be their watered down separate release strategy like how kits just give you simplified data sheet cards instead of full warscrolls

Shadow & Pain box cards had the final warscroll printed on them.

[Beliman]

5 hours ago, PJetski said:

lol

I don't understand how a "fiery funerary priests" means he is not a priest.

/sadface

[Forehead]

I called you all salty buggers earlier in the week and said wait until the scrolls and points.

I just wanted to say sorry, i got that one pretty wrong. We've clearly been given a full on slap in the face from GW and none of it really makes any sense to me. This looks to have really crippled the army.

At least we have a glimmer of hope with the possibility of a new book. For example maybe sworn defenders applies to all hearthguard as an allegiance ability. Clutching at straws but still hoping.

[Baron Klatz]

I imagine they’ll have to give the sub-factions something good since they’ve been watered down in 3.0 to 1 army bonus and a new battleline, the latter of which Fyreslayers already unlock super easy as is.

So something like Lodge Greyfyrd buffing the Auric Magmabolts to always cripple enemy units so they can barely charge (lore mix of their mercenary tactics to aid other armies and stronger Chamon alchemy magmas used) and Lofnir giving them their anti-monster bonuses back but for the whole army ala Astral Templars sub-faction as they’re monster experts so give their Magmadroths an advantage.

If 2 new units do appear as rumored I could see that being how they bring the lodges up to the 6 sub-factions standard with both units each getting a new Lodge built around them.

Edit: oh yeah about the DoK vs Slaanesh responses. That was still 2nd edition. 3rd edition is when they started introducing the simple data sheets with the Stormcasts and Orruks first. Could apply here to a degree like a few missing extras but likely just the nerf before the battletome storm.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Lord Krungharr]

I just bought my FS army in December....at least it was a really good 2nd hand model sale?  Can't think of why they felt the need to do these nerfs, HGBs weren't really breaking the game even with a 6++/4++ within range of heroes; they're slow!  At least the pole-axes still do MW 😛

The Auric nerf is stupid, I agree they'll probably get some subfactional buffs.  IF they are gearing up for a United Duardin tome with these nerfs, I imagine there will be a unit like the Anvil of Doom, plus Grungni and Gotrek, to dish out auras to augment their well-crafted gear (like Magmapikes).  

Glad my 2x10 Vulkites have the shields, just bought them like that.

And to those who say they've been Bonesplittered, how dare you sir or madam!  Bonesplitterz RULE!

[DrDemento]

Agree a lot to be disappointed about in these but also need to check ourselves until battletome comes out.  Pattern in 3.0 is nerfed/simplified warscrolls in exchange for army wide and sub faction buffs.  
 

I think bonesplitterz is a good comparison on several levels.  Can easily see army wide 6+ ward as they all have runes in them. Lot of other possibilities.  
 

On related note but a bit off topic, I think bonesplitterz might be underestimated and underutilized, especially Icebone sub faction, maybe better than kruleboyz but clearly not Ironjawz is the issue.  Icebone does mortals on 6 to wound, extends to rogue idol, and the wurghog prophet is nuts, took down Archaon using the mask in one of my games in a turn and a half!  Maybe not as good with the recent nerf to heroic recovery but that wouldn’t have impacted the Archean kill since was not in combat. And the Bonesplittas Waaagh is great with 4+ ward army wide for a turn!!!

Anyway, big shift in n 3.0 on balance of power shifting from warscrolls to allegiance and sub faction abilities.  
 

Keeping hope alive but prepared to build 10 of my 30 vulkites on sprues as converted chain wielding hearthguard

[Joseph Mackay]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

Hearthguard didnt need a nerf(8'8 damage for 135 points when namarti for 130 have 17 damage or grave guard for 140 have 15 damage), they had worse damage than similar units as tradeoff for the extra tankiness.

The change to wholy wiithin 9" have killed them because it is almost imposible get 15 models with base 30 and after charge and pile in in range of a hero that hadnt chargued.

The good solution for someome that know how do his job was buff vulkites so they are at the level of hearthguard. But we have seem that this team that did the fyreslayer tome dont know how do his job and nerfed a balanced unit as hearthguard and destroyed a bad unit as vulkites

You’re comparing an elite unit (that under the lore shouldn’t even be conditional Battleline but is because there’s no other options, and was undercosted) to a basic Battleline unit.

[Doko]

And who cares if a unit is elite or not? Due to that one unit are 10 models and other 5, but the balance is for the unit and both must be good so you can choose one or other. 

Also i said as in mathammer hearthguard wasnt undercosted(maybe even overcosted) if we compare it to others infantry as namartis or grave guard and also data tournament spamming the "undercosted" unit never won any tournament in entire 3.0 and they are around 15th in ranking of tournament data so it seems weird call undercosted a unit that being spammed cant win any tournament?

Edited January 16, 2022 by Doko

[Joseph Mackay]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

And who cares if a unit is elite or not? Due to that one unit are 10 models and other 5, but the balance is for the unit and both must be good so you can choose one or other. 

Also i said as in mathammer hearthguard wasnt undercosted(maybe even overcosted) if we compare it to others infantry as namartis or grave guard and also data tournament spamming the "undercosted" unit never won any tournament in entire 3.0 and they are around 15th in ranking of tournament data so it seems weird call undercosted a unit that being spammed cant win any tournament?

They were overcosted at least compared to Vulkites. Ignoring the AoS3 core rules (coherency) for a moment, Hearthguard were so much better and cheaper at minimum size (yes it’s 5 models vs 10, but those 5 are so much better), they also have 2” range, so units bigger than 5 don’t have issues Vulkites do.

enter AoS3 coherency rules. There was already little reason to take Vulkites from a competitive point of view (if you care about the lore then you should have been taking Vulkites as well). Now with AoS3, the difference between those two units is so much greater, and the points never reflected that in my opinion (maybe the issue was actually Vulkites costing too much rather than Hearthguard being too cheap though). These new warscrolls just reinforce Hearthguard spam as the only way to play the army, and that makes me sad because it strongly goes against the lore of the Fyreslayers

Now in regards to trying to compare to other units, Thralls don’t have a 4+ ward (let’s be honest, everyone always had a hero close enough to get a 4+), Gravegrave only have a 6+ if babysat by a hero (with a much smaller leash - pre Fury In The Deep warscrolls). In regards to within 10” becoming wholly within 9” so a unit of 15 can’t get it? Good. The coherency rules were intended to stop oppressive hordes running a muck (sadly, the majority of those were on 25mm bases so the changes didn’t affect them anyway).

Hearthguard should NOT be spammed, they also SHOULDNT be Battleline, the only reason they are is because the faction is too small to restrict them to Vulkites only. Hearthguard are a bodyguard/elite unit (in the lore), not the main fighting force of the fyreslayers. Additionally, as per the lore, Auric Runemasters and Auric Runefathers should be limited to one per army

[Doko]

Yes i had in mind the 4+++

Hearthguard:8'8 damage 10 wounds with save 5 and 4+++  135 points

Namarti:18 damage against his best target that is the most comon unit of the game (1 wounds model) 10 wounds with save 5 130 points

Grave guard 2 hands: 15 damage and some of this are mortals,10 wounds with save 5 and 5'7+++(6 rerolling 1)140 points

 

So even with the 4+++ is so easy as hearthguard have double wounds that namarti but half damage 

Vs grave guard again they do double damage than us and we only have 2 more special save that is around 4 extra wounds.

So if we compare hearthguard to namarti we trade double damage of namartis for double wounds of dwarf and againts grave guards they dish out double damage than us for only 50% more wounds

As allways diferent armys is hard compare stats,but it is easy see that hearthguard isnt undercosted because it is so good(or even worse) than other infantrys.

And  following you comment about vulkites,i dont think hearthguard must be nerfed so the gap with vulkites be smaller.

In my opinion vulkites with double axes must cost 100 points have 10 wounds not have rangued axes and have base 3 attack 3\3\0\1 and 2" range or a special rule that let them ignore the new coherency or let them attack two ranks.

Vulkites with shield havent rangued axes,20 wounds with save 4,have 2 attack 3\31\1 pick and dont have axe option and again ignore new coherency or 2" range and a cost of 150

In my head:vulkites axe must be the high damage\low survivality and low cost unit

Vulkites shield sligth lesser killy but more expensive and more tank

Hearthguard a mix,being betwen vulkites damage and vulkites shield in damage and tankiness being the all around unit but not the best in anything

But dont matter our opinion,gw gonna just do one unit as the best inevery situation

Edited January 16, 2022 by Doko

[Malakithe]

Im not happy about this. Nothing else needs to be said. If by some crazy ass miracle the book has some dramatic changes for the better that sheds some light on things then ill man up and admit I was wrong.

But as traditional GW goes they arent capable of communication or transparency so as usual we are left in the dark about a book

[Beliman]

@Doko hey!

I'm interested in buying more fyreslayers.

PM me with your army and prices. Some pics would be nice too.

[ledha]

10 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

That’s a good point for a possibility. Others are saying it might also be their watered down separate release strategy like how kits just give you simplified data sheet cards instead of full warscrolls. This all could be contained to the box to spice up the fights.

So things could be radically different for the tomes.

speaking of which, 3.0 battletomes seem to love army-wide effects. What do you guys figure Fyreslayers can get out of that?

Being an army that’s usually covered in fire or magma I hope it’s more exciting than wards(though that could fit with the rune tattoos) and they cause a heat-wave debuff to enemies they fight. Opposite to the wards & diseases of Maggotkin as Fyreslayers soften you up with sling shields, slowing magma bolts and heatstroke so their charge can smash an enemy’s defense to pieces or make them regret fighting Fyreslayers on the defensive as the losses make them stronger(Flamekeepers here) and keep the enemy down.

People thought the same for dominion and it was the full warscrolls.

The only thing that could compensate such lousy profiles would be that fyreslayer runes mechanic affect them for the whole duration of the battle and are cumulative, basically making the game a rush against the clock for the ennemy where he have to beat the dwarves before they end up overpowered and hack everyone

[Joseph Mackay]

31 minutes ago, ledha said:

People thought the same for dominion and it was the full warscrolls.

The only thing that could compensate such lousy profiles would be that fyreslayer runes mechanic affect them for the whole duration of the battle and are cumulative, basically making the game a rush against the clock for the ennemy where he have to beat the dwarves before they end up overpowered and hack everyone

Yeah, there is no basis to the ‘watered down’ warscrolls thing as they’ve never done that in these battle boxes before. In 40K, sure, they don’t give you the full rules, but that’s because of how 40K put a lot of keywords on the scroll that you need the codex for the actual rule. Additionally, the watered down warscrolls are only in the instruction booklet

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

The only thing that could compensate such lousy profiles would be that fyreslayer runes mechanic affect them for the whole duration of the battle and are cumulative, basically making the game a rush against the clock for the ennemy where he have to beat the dwarves before they end up overpowered and hack everyone

That would turn fyreslayers in to a really strong army. Rend -1/-2, option for +1dmg and 6" move (or rerolls/mw vs fast melee armies) can turn the tide in 2d turn.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Beliman

[Malakithe]

Yeah all the rune effects stacking for the entire game would be broken even if your list was just vulkites. 

But they will need to do something amazing with army wide buffs to make up for what is now some of the worst warscrolls in the game. 

I can see a faction wide ward save via runes for start

[Doko]

Yes i tougth also that,only some crazy as runes stacking for entire game could fix the worst scrolls of all aos as are the vulkites.

Something as drugs of dark eldars in 40k.

Id it is too much broken as it is now could be changed the effects or even be fixed as dark eldars and we cant choose,i dont know but the book need some huge buffs to the damage of entire units because rigth now these scrolls in mathammer arent so bad in tanking,but the damage per point of the units are the worst of entire aos.

So i hope the reason is that tye book have across the board buffs to damage or attacks.

Vulkites pick 170 points for 3'3 damage in melle with 1 rend,2'5 with 0 rend at shooting and 1'8 mortals wound when charge. And this is a unit with base 30 and 1" range so in reality only the 50% of the unit gonna attack.

But in total is 7'6 damage some with 1 rend,0 rend for 170 when the normal in aos are around 8'8 damage rend1 for 120\140 

So in damage this unit is overcosted for as 50+ points but 20 wounds with save4 for 170 isnt bad and usually the cost are 160 for 20 wounds save4(two units of 80 points as free people with shield)

So my point is,the wounds and save of our units for his cost isnt bad but the problem is the damage that is VERY LOW. We gonna need huge across the board increase in damage in the book or the army gonna be umplayable due to hit like wet noddles

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm considering chopping off the dragon gun barrels from my Auric HGs and gluing on the Broadaxe and Poleaxe-chain heads now.  Or maybe 2x5 Broadaxe heads.  The rend-1 and always 2 damage is nice, especially with Awakened Steel, especially with the Enhanced Effect.  Pretty much love the Spirit of Grimnir CT.   

Though maybe 1 unit of Aurics is good for slowing down that special enemy unit....the cumulative -1" to charge up to half is still somewhat decent (though we'll miss the old additional -1 to hit effect).   But I have some KO and Dispossessed for shooty dwarves. Meh, gotta give it some time to digest.  I'll go build some spiders in the mean time. 

[Baron Klatz]

I do like stacking debuffs. A spammed magma volley slowing charges down so most of your units can pepper them with Fyresteel throwing axes to chop them up for a counter-charge.

Also adding to my wishlist that Lodge Hermdar could change by cutting down on hero abilities(ex: Flamekeeper only needing 3 deaths) and with Fyreslayers & Flesh-Eater tomes on the possible horizon they both get their 2019 mercenary rules back using the new example Sons of Behemat set. Get some powerful named heroes(standard models tho) to work for different Grand Alliances and bring along some of their now watered-down troops not breaking the game with more opened up merc options.

[Lord Krungharr]

Is this a lore friendly army list maybe?

 - Army Faction: Fyreslayers
     - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
     - Triumph: Inspired
LEADERS
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (275)* Salamander Cloak and Curse
Auric Runesmiter (120)** Searing Heat
Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (285)** 
     - General w Spirit of Grimnir and Amulet of Destiny
Auric Runemaster (115)** Prayer of Ash
BATTLELINE
10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (160)* all 30 w shields
10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (160)*
10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (160)*
10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (250)** w poleaxes
OTHER
2 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)*
1 x Stormdrake Guard (Single) (170)*
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
1 x Molten Infernoth (75)
CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Battle Regiment
 -  **Warlord
TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

Gonna have to get a box of Draconiths though. 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Is this a lore friendly army list maybe?

 - Army Faction: Fyreslayers
     - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
     - Triumph: Inspired
LEADERS
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (275)* Salamander Cloak and Curse
Auric Runesmiter (120)** Searing Heat
Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (285)** 
     - General w Spirit of Grimnir and Amulet of Destiny
Auric Runemaster (115)** Prayer of Ash
BATTLELINE
10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (160)* all 30 w shields
10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (160)*
10 x Vulkite Berzerkers (160)*
10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (250)** w poleaxes
OTHER
2 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)*
1 x Stormdrake Guard (Single) (170)*
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
1 x Molten Infernoth (75)
CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Battle Regiment
 -  **Warlord
TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

Gonna have to get a box of Draconiths though. 

 

You can only run a single stormdrake guard for each knight-draconis that you run, which means you cannot run this list.  You either have to drop the Fulminators to run a pair of stormdrakes, or drop the stormdrake and keep the fulminators in.

[Voltek]

We need a dual kit of these

Battle Valkyrie 260 points

-Flying atop their Ash Born Pegasai the proud Dwarven women inspire the Lodge-

Move: 12" Bravery: 8 Save: 4+ Wounds: 8

Fly

Unit Size: 2 Base Size: Same as Blight Lords

Throwing Axes 8" 4+ / 4+ Rend - DMG: 1

Flame Spear Attacks: 5 Reach: 2" 3+ / 3+ Rend -2 DMG 1

Fiery Hooves Attacks: 4 Reach 1" 4+ / 2+ Rend -1 DMG 2

Flame Spear: On the charge increase Damage to 3.

Battle Song: During the start of your Charge Phase choose 1 song to perform

Blaze the Trail: All friendly Fyreslayers units wholly within 9" have +1 to Charge until the end of this phase.

Rally in Flame: Immediately perform the Rally Command Ability without having to spend a Command point on a unit wholly within 9" even if within 3" of enemy models.

Saga of Champions: All Fyreslayer Heroes not atop a Magmadroth wholly within 9" recieve +2 Attacks to their Melee Weapon Profiles until the end of their next Fight phase.

‐-------------------------

Shield Valkyrie 275 points

- Flying atop their Ash Born Pegasai the proud Dwarven women inspire the Lodge-

Move: 12" Bravery: 8 Save: 4+ Wounds: 8

Fly

Unit Size: 2 Base Size: Same as Blight Lords

Throwing Axes 8" 4+ / 4+ Rend - DMG: 1

Fiery Hooves Attacks: 4 Reach 1" 4+ / 2+ Rend -1 DMG 2

Ashen Bow 18" Attacks: 3 3+ / 3+ Rend -2 DMG D3

Shield Maiden: when Hero suffers a wound within 3" on a 4+ this unit suffers instead (with whatever bodyguard wording Auric have now)

Defenders Song: During the start of your Shooting Phase choose 1 song to perform

Light the Way: Choose a friendly Fyreslayers unit wholly within 9" not within 3" of an enemy unit, that unit may take the Redeploy Command ability as if it was just issued to them.

Hymn of Respite: Choose a friendly Fyreslayers unit wholly within 9" and Heal it D3 any 1 Auric Flamekeeper may add to his Die the amount Healed.

Saga of the Flame Wall: All Fyreslayer Heroes not atop a Magmadroth wholly within 9" recieve a 4+ Ward until the end of their next Fight phase.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Voltek

[Lord Krungharr]

16 hours ago, readercolin said:

You can only run a single stormdrake guard for each knight-draconis that you run, which means you cannot run this list.  You either have to drop the Fulminators to run a pair of stormdrakes, or drop the stormdrake and keep the fulminators in.

Crud, didn't see that part.  Well maybe a few more Gyrocopters are in my future; gotta compare to those Grundstok Gunhaulers and Frigates maybe.