AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[ledha]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

Stormcast are good at melee but not as good as the dedicated melee factions. You have to use a combined arms approach to combat.

It would be fine if our Stormhosts allowed us to specialize further. In theory Celestial Vindicators should be the melee guys and Celestial Warbringers should be the spell guys but in practice they are only marginally better than not taking a Stormhost at all.

Stormcast need more specialization. They could juice up the Stormhost bonuses but add some restrictions to army building, for example:

Celestial Vindicators
Trait: If you charged you can fight at the start of the Combat Phase, but all their missile weapon have -1 hit unless they are within 12" of the target

Celestial Warbringers
Trait: All WIZARD HERO can cast one additional spell, but if they use this ability to cast another spell then they can't move or charge later that turn.

Knights-Excelsior
Trait: Once per turn if you destroy a unit you can immediately fight again, but you cannot take Allies.

Hallowed Knights
Trait: Ignore all spells (from friend or foe) on a 4+

why giving them maluses when the stormhost equivalents of every other army just give flat bonuses with 0 malus ? 

[PJetski]

42 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

I think PJetski's context is generally always from the angle of playing Anvilstrike. I could be wrong, but I've made that mistake before when replying to him.

I believe the idea is throwing some disposable screen in front of enough shooting firepower to pose a threat that is so immediate that any combat oriented army will be forced to try to get through it, or end up losing the game due to having all of its important models removed from the table.

It's not just about Anvilstrike and it's not just about shooting. You can screen with disposable units and entirely avoid 2" attacks with proper positioning, then counterattack with a unit 3" away. It doesn't entirely avoid 3" attacks (unless you have an ability to pile in from further away) but it usually does enough to get the job done.

You don't even have to counterattack in the same turn - lose a disposable unit to hold them in place then counterattack in the next turn. Every army that messes with activations has some kind of other limitation you can play around.

Every relevant army can bring some amount of shooting, magic, positioning/combat tricks to deal with key units that fight first. If you are playing a list with no way to counter units that fight first then you are not playing a good enough list, or you are playing an army that desperately needs an update (like Ironjawz).  You wouldn't play an army with zero unbinding in a wizard meta...

Edited June 26, 2019 by PJetski

[HammerOfSigmar]

Just some personal thought about enhancing the Celestial Vindicator Stormhost rule:

Ability(reckless attack):

After a CV unit made a charge move, it can the reckless attack ability. If you do so, you can pick this unit to fight at the start of the combat phase, but you must subtract 1 from save rolls for this unit during this phase and this unit cannot be picked to fight again in this phase unless another ability or spell allow it to do so.

Command Ability:

Choose a unit wholly within 9" of  a CV hero, or wholy within 18" of a CV hero that is a general, that already been picked to fight in the combat phase to fight a second time.  Same unit doesn't benefit from this command ability more than once.

Do you guys think this is too IMBA?

Edited June 26, 2019 by HammerOfSigmar

[Mark Williams]

37 minutes ago, PJetski said:

It's not just about Anvilstrike and it's not just about shooting. You can screen with disposable units and entirely avoid 2" attacks with proper positioning, then counterattack with a unit 3" away. It doesn't entirely avoid 3" attacks (unless you have an ability to pile in from further away) but it usually does enough to get the job done.

You don't even have to counterattack in the same turn - lose a disposable unit to hold them in place then counterattack in the next turn. Every army that messes with activations has some kind of other limitation you can play around.

Every relevant army can bring some amount of shooting, magic, positioning/combat tricks to deal with key units that fight first. If you are playing a list with no way to counter units that fight first then you are not playing a good enough list, or you are playing an army that desperately needs an update (like Ironjawz).  You wouldn't play an army with zero unbinding in a wizard meta...

The issue I've found with Feeding Frenzy is that even when I put a unit behind my screen, they use the 3" pile in in such a way that they get 6" penetration over the course of two pile-ins. They can generally out maneuver me in some way by hitting my screen from the side and then pivoting around. Unless my screen is much larger than the unit behind them, the screen basically doesn't work. I'd point to the birds as an example of this, where they are only 3 models and just end up being a speed bump to this weird sort of 6" pivot move that sees their monster pull off a weird 12"-18" "charge" in multiple stages.

I mean you can pull off similar stuff with Evocators and their 3" shock attack, but it gets pretty nasty with other armies.

Personally, I'm finding that against certain armies, combat is just simply a total lost cause for me, but shooting presents its own problems and is probably worse in the end, which leaves me with making the best assault with a little bit of shooting backup army that I can make, and then I just have to accept that certain armies are going to beat me and there's nothing I can really do about it. Take my 3/5 wins and bow.

[jhamslam]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

It's not just about Anvilstrike and it's not just about shooting. You can screen with disposable units and entirely avoid 2" attacks with proper positioning, then counterattack with a unit 3" away. It doesn't entirely avoid 3" attacks (unless you have an ability to pile in from further away) but it usually does enough to get the job done.

You don't even have to counterattack in the same turn - lose a disposable unit to hold them in place then counterattack in the next turn. Every army that messes with activations has some kind of other limitation you can play around.

Every relevant army can bring some amount of shooting, magic, positioning/combat tricks to deal with key units that fight first. If you are playing a list with no way to counter units that fight first then you are not playing a good enough list, or you are playing an army that desperately needs an update (like Ironjawz).  You wouldn't play an army with zero unbinding in a wizard meta...

"Counterattack in the next turn" doesnt work, since again, he will always pile in and fight first. I dont understand how youre supposed to get an effective attack even with screening. Even screening with disposable units, all counter moves on your turn or his result in him fighting first.

Only exception to this is if you tag an enemy right next to the terrorgheist then pile into it. But thats a rarity most fec players prep for

[PJetski]

The simple answer is... don't play Stormcast as a pure melee army.

If you want to play an army that can win competitive matches purely through melee you shouldn't have picked the one with the most ranged options in the game.

That doesn't mean you need to spam shooting - battleline Judicators and some Dracoth breath attacks go a long way to dealing with fight first monsters.

[JaffaBones]

Don't get it wrong. The fight first abilities are a thing to stay. All factions will get it or at the very least some of their heros will. Battlelines won't be able to do significant things to heros anymore. I never played warhammer fantasy, but from what I read about, it used to go into a direction like that with the to hit/wnd matrix, which basically made a hero impenetrable from chaff. When everybody has it, it will equal out through "whoever players turn it is, gets to go first" which is already in place. Then all the chaff's turn to try their luck.

Edited June 26, 2019 by JaffaBones

[nakomat]

I wanted to ask if someone in here could help me understand the meta around the SCE since i have only just gotten back into warhammer and picked up SCE since my old armies from the older version namely the orcs where so limited in units, are the only viable list currently range heavy armies and what would you suggest to play when going up against a mate that uses maggotkin of nurgle at 1500 points ?.

currently i have 10 sequitors, 3 evocators and 1 lord arcanum on gryph charger buildt but not painted but they seem weak compare to his very beefy guys.

[Lucur]

Nakomat it depends greatly on how competitive your local group is. Skim across the last few pages to get a grip on tournament play. For the occasional friendly clash, almost anything in the stormcast book will do. Lord Arcanum and some Sequitors is a solid core against Nurgle, get some -1 to hit ability to deny their blightkings d6 attacks and you're good to go.

[XReN]

13 hours ago, PJetski said:

Stormcast are good at melee but not as good as the dedicated melee factions. You have to use a combined arms approach to combat.

It would be fine if our Stormhosts allowed us to specialize further. In theory Celestial Vindicators should be the melee guys and Celestial Warbringers should be the spell guys but in practice they are only marginally better than not taking a Stormhost at all.

Stormcast need more specialization. They could juice up the Stormhost bonuses but add some restrictions to army building, for example:

Celestial Vindicators
Trait: If you charged you can fight at the start of the Combat Phase, but all their missile weapon have -1 hit unless they are within 12" of the target

Celestial Warbringers
Trait: All WIZARD HERO can cast one additional spell, but if they use this ability to cast another spell then they can't move or charge later that turn.

Knights-Excelsior
Trait: Once per turn if you destroy a unit you can immediately fight again, but you cannot take Allies.

Hallowed Knights
Trait: Ignore all spells (from friend or foe) on a 4+

I really miss the days of battalion Stormhosts, I ran my army as Tempest Lords and it was very worth it, with 4 hit-and-running Prosecutor units, as well as heroes getting a wound and attack boost during the game
And it made us a 1 drop army

Edited June 26, 2019 by XReN

[Marzillius]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Mortal Realm: Aqshy
LEADERS
Lord-Arcanum (160) - General - Command Trait : Staunch Defender  - Artefact :  Ignax's Scales - Spell : Azyrite Halo
Knight-Incantor (140) - Celestial Staves (Artefact) : Staff of Focus - Spell : Chain Lightning
Knight-Incantor (140) - Spell : Stormcaller
Lord-Exorcist (120) - Spell : Lighntning Blast
Lord-Castellant (120)

UNITS
20 x Sequitors (440) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 9 x  Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield - 1 x  Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield - 1 x  Grandhammers
2 x Concussors (240)

BATTALIONS
Grand Convocation (130)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Everblaze Comet (100)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)

TOTAL: 1990/2000     EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1     WOUNDS: 97
LEADERS: 5/6    BATTLELINES: 3 (3+)    BEHEMOTHS: 0/4    ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2    ALLIES: 0/400

I came up with this list while trying to make a magic-based SCE army for variety's sake. I love my cavalry armies but sometimes you gotta do something else. Grand Convocation gives +1 to cast to all the wizards for the endless spell fiesta. Basically the Lord-Arcanum's CA allows you to move an endless spell an additional d6 inches, very useful for giving the Purple Sun or Geminids a little boost. The Incantor will cast the Balewind Vortex and then pop the Staff and cast Spirit Storm, dealing 2 MW to every enemy unit within 24", alternatively casting Chain Lightning on some hero 30" away and giving them d3+1 MW and 2 MW to everyone around them on a 4+. With the Comet and the Geminids on the same turn you can realiably kill a lot of heroes over 2 turns. The Sequitors will have 2 + save with all the armour buffs and Azyrite Halo, making them tough as nails against everything but Skarbrand and the Gristlegore clowns. Liberators hold points and Concussors charge into some small-medium tough units and hopefully take some objective or something. Overall a lot of mortal wounds and not half-bad tanking and melee capability. What do you think?

[Naem]

Looks like a pretty interesting and unusual list. Would love to hear how it competes in a game. I would also love to make a more magic based army but feel like it is not very competitive in comparison to the standard Lord Arcanum/Sequitors/Evocators lists I usually go with. Esp. Knight Incantors don't seem to be powerful enough for their points. 

[CommissarRotke]

If it doesn't work, that's 430 (spell) points to play around with to get it to work so...seems like a great list to craft with to me.

[CommissarRotke]

So the Meeting Engagement rules came out. My 1k list from matched I think translates perfectly into the new mode:

Spoiler

Spearhead
Lord-Arcanum (160)
- General
- Spell: Chain Lightning
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 2x Stormsmite Greatmaces
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (170)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Main Body
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
Rearguard
5 x Evocators (220)
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Total: 1000 / 1000

The idea is to get LAoF w chain lightning and longstrikes out first, both with MW capability and ready for their first and second turn heroes. Longstrikes could even run to claim their range buff next turn, depending on battle plan drop. Shield Prime starts on table against any ranged.

Incantor drops second with Halo since I doubt there will be melee in the first turn. Possibly a better spell choice here,  especially to help rearguard drop move. Greatmace Prime comes in with.

Evos drop last as rearguard. There will probably be an issue getting them into combat, but I feel like longstrikes could clear up any shooting units by this time so them running won't be dangerous. I am wondering if there's a better spell choice for the Evos as well.

[XReN]

3 hours ago, Marzillius said:

The Incantor will cast the Balewind Vortex and then pop the Staff

Don't forget that unless you want to play safe in case vortex doesn't go off you can use staff before you cast vortex, it applies untill the end of the phase for all spells

[jhamslam]

12 hours ago, PJetski said:

The simple answer is... don't play Stormcast as a pure melee army.

If you want to play an army that can win competitive matches purely through melee you shouldn't have picked the one with the most ranged options in the game.

That doesn't mean you need to spam shooting - battleline Judicators and some Dracoth breath attacks go a long way to dealing with fight first monsters.

I dont disagree, but my original point was even armies that do pure melee well dont stand a chance against this mechanic. You thought Gristlegore was dumb. Locus of Diversion, which is basically "fight last" for you, happens in a 6'' aura of all Hedonite heroes on a 2+ if its a greater daemon else a 4+.

My point wasnt you shouldnt be running SCE shooters, my point was its bad design to have such a mechanic, when the only reliable way to deal with it IS shooting in a game where most armies dont have reliable access to that and AoS being a primarily melee game, have melee based units. Its not a rag on me not being able to run melee heavy builds, its that its bad for that game that contains and is arguably mostly about melee combat, not gunlines.

Edited June 26, 2019 by jhamslam

[HammerOfSigmar]

For Meeting Engagement, I have an idea,

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators
SPEARHEAD
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Command Trait : Single-minded Fury
- Artefact : Stormrage Blade
- Spell : Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait : Pride Leader
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (300)

MAIN BODY

Knight-Heraldor (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell : Lighntning Blast
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
REARGUARD
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (110)
- Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN
Dais Arcanum (30)
TOTAL: 1000/1000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 52

 

The basic idea is to use thundercat to charge-retreat-charge. Any suggestions?

[HammerOfSigmar]

32 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

So the Meeting Engagement rules came out. My 1k list from matched I think translates perfectly into the new mode:

  Reveal hidden contents

Spearhead
Lord-Arcanum (160)
- General
- Spell: Chain Lightning
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 2x Stormsmite Greatmaces
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (170)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Main Body
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
Rearguard
5 x Evocators (220)
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Total: 1000 / 1000

The idea is to get LAoF w chain lightning and longstrikes out first, both with MW capability and ready for their first and second turn heroes. Longstrikes could even run to claim their range buff next turn, depending on battle plan drop. Shield Prime starts on table against any ranged.

Incantor drops second with Halo since I doubt there will be melee in the first turn. Possibly a better spell choice here,  especially to help rearguard drop move. Greatmace Prime comes in with.

Evos drop last as rearguard. There will probably be an issue getting them into combat, but I feel like longstrikes could clear up any shooting units by this time so them running won't be dangerous. I am wondering if there's a better spell choice for the Evos as well.

I suggest use the lighting blast instead, in Meeting engagement, the deployment distance is 30" at the beginning, so chain lightning might not be able to hit the enemy.

[luthhero]

3 hours ago, Marzillius said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Mortal Realm: Aqshy
LEADERS
Lord-Arcanum (160) - General - Command Trait : Staunch Defender  - Artefact :  Ignax's Scales - Spell : Azyrite Halo
Knight-Incantor (140) - Celestial Staves (Artefact) : Staff of Focus - Spell : Chain Lightning
Knight-Incantor (140) - Spell : Stormcaller
Lord-Exorcist (120) - Spell : Lighntning Blast
Lord-Castellant (120)

UNITS
20 x Sequitors (440) - Tempest Blades and Soulshields - 9 x  Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield - 1 x  Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield - 1 x  Grandhammers
2 x Concussors (240)

BATTALIONS
Grand Convocation (130)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Everblaze Comet (100)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)

TOTAL: 1990/2000     EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1     WOUNDS: 97
LEADERS: 5/6    BATTLELINES: 3 (3+)    BEHEMOTHS: 0/4    ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2    ALLIES: 0/400

I came up with this list while trying to make a magic-based SCE army for variety's sake. I love my cavalry armies but sometimes you gotta do something else. Grand Convocation gives +1 to cast to all the wizards for the endless spell fiesta. Basically the Lord-Arcanum's CA allows you to move an endless spell an additional d6 inches, very useful for giving the Purple Sun or Geminids a little boost. The Incantor will cast the Balewind Vortex and then pop the Staff and cast Spirit Storm, dealing 2 MW to every enemy unit within 24", alternatively casting Chain Lightning on some hero 30" away and giving them d3+1 MW and 2 MW to everyone around them on a 4+. With the Comet and the Geminids on the same turn you can realiably kill a lot of heroes over 2 turns. The Sequitors will have 2 + save with all the armour buffs and Azyrite Halo, making them tough as nails against everything but Skarbrand and the Gristlegore clowns. Liberators hold points and Concussors charge into some small-medium tough units and hopefully take some objective or something. Overall a lot of mortal wounds and not half-bad tanking and melee capability. What do you think?

This looks pretty awesome!  Personally I only have Sacrosanct models plus a Celestant Prime so something similar would need to be moved around.  The Concussors look really sweet.  I may just throw some Evocators in there.  I'm playing a game tonight and just love the idea of the Endless Spell Stormcast.  Maybe I will throw some Dracolines in there or something.  Love the conversation so far on this style of list.  I'll throw some battle reports up for you guys as I get more games under my belt.

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

I suggest use the lighting blast instead, in Meeting engagement, the deployment distance is 30" at the beginning, so chain lightning might not be able to hit the enemy.

I still haven't memorized our spells lol, thank you! I just remembered chain had great MW application for a small cast

edit: can Evos cast celestial blades on themselves?

Edited June 26, 2019 by CommissarRotke

[jhamslam]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

I still haven't memorized our spells lol, thank you! I just remembered chain had great MW application for a small cast

edit: can Evos cast celestial blades on themselves?

Yes they can. 

[HammerOfSigmar]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

I still haven't memorized our spells lol, thank you! I just remembered chain had great MW application for a small cast

edit: can Evos cast celestial blades on themselves?

Yes, they can cast that spell on themselves. Chain lighting can do a lot MW when the enemy units are sticking together, but that's a 24" spell.

[Roodie]

Good thing I hold back my next purchases until the GHB2019 - but now I need some advice. What I have currently is the SCE half of the Soul Wars box with the Sequitors bumped up to 15, a Lord Castellant, 20 Liberators, and 5 Retributors. My target is to have a viable (semi-competitive) 1500-ish army, and I have a budget around 100 GBP. I would like to have a 1-2 units of Desolators, but for the rest, any advice? I am a bit lost. I was thinking about Gavriel (is he still relevant?), and maybe a unit of Evocators on Dracolines? Or a box of Judicators would serve me better, with another character?  Thanks for any advice.

[HammerOfSigmar]

5 minutes ago, Roodie said:

Good thing I hold back my next purchases until the GHB2019 - but now I need some advice. What I have currently is the SCE half of the Soul Wars box with the Sequitors bumped up to 15, a Lord Castellant, 20 Liberators, and 5 Retributors. My target is to have a viable (semi-competitive) 1500-ish army, and I have a budget around 100 GBP. I would like to have a 1-2 units of Desolators, but for the rest, any advice? I am a bit lost. I was thinking about Gavriel (is he still relevant?), and maybe a unit of Evocators on Dracolines? Or a box of Judicators would serve me better, with another character?  Thanks for any advice.

desolator tends to be good when there are 6 models, so probably you want to use concussor(same kit);  evo on dracoline tends to be deadly when playing with LAoCD and heraldor; judicator have good model but they are overpriced when considering points; gavriel should still be effective in semi-competitive list).

[Roodie]

11 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

desolator tends to be good when there are 6 models

... or I could just buy 3 boxes of Desolators. Thank you for the quick reply, I appreciate it! Cheers.