GeneralZero Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 when you put a bataillon in reserve (at set up in game's beginning, scion?), does it count as 1 unit (like the drop) or number of unit in the bataillon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, GeneralZero said: when you put a bataillon in reserve (at set up in game's beginning, scion?), does it count as 1 unit (like the drop) or number of unit in the bataillon? I doubt It counts as 1 unit. The rule talks about number if units on the table and in reserve. Not about how many drops It took to deploy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kugane Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 16 hours ago, Erdemo86 said: Can someone do me a favor please and do the Math of Dracolines vs. Foot Evocators on charge? want to know if the 100 points are worth it. Foot evocators are better as far i recall. About 30% better I think, but I will calculate them again later on and get back to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 3 hours ago, GeneralZero said: Why are you speaking about changing points whereas we just have the GH2018 and have to wait 1 full year for the next GH2019? We have to deal with those points. Not perfect, but still enjoyable Nothing wrong with talking about fan rules. I did it all the time back in WFB. I once rewrote the entire TK and Beastmen book! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kugane Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Erdemo86 said: Can someone do me a favor please and do the Math of Dracolines vs. Foot Evocators on charge? want to know if the 100 points are worth it. Dracolines about 2.9 damage per 100 points and on foot about 6 damage per 100 points. Quite underwhelming. Edited July 31, 2018 by Kugane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erdemo86 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 10 minutes ago, Kugane said: Dracolines about 2.9 damage per 100 points and on foot about 6 damage per 100 points. Quite underwhelming. Ok thank you. Its what i thought. So Normal Evos for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I think we need to take into account the charge bonus of the dracoline, as well as all the possible buffs they can have. A lord arcanum on dracoline with the good mount trait give them 4 attacks 2+/3+/-1/D3 in charge for example 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kugane Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ledha said: I think we need to take into account the charge bonus of the dracoline, as well as all the possible buffs they can have. A lord arcanum on dracoline with the good mount trait give them 4 attacks 2+/3+/-1/D3 in charge for example I think the trade off is too much and even with the extra attack on monstrous claws you are looking at a 0.45 damage increase per 100p and a "wasted" command point. I think the role these dracoline units can fulfil is being deployed on the field instead of scions, while on foot evocators can be deepstriked. They are fast and can get where they need to be quickly. There are cheaper units to fulfil that role though. Like a ballista on field + unit of evocators. 19 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said: Ok thank you. Its what i thought. So Normal Evos for me. Same for me! I wish it were otherwise. Absolutely love the models. Edited July 31, 2018 by Kugane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kugane said: I think the trade off is too much and even with the extra attack on monstrous claws you are looking at a 0.45 damage increase per 100p and a "wasted" command point. I think the role these dracoline units can fulfil is being deployed on the field instead of scions, while on foot evocators can be deepstriked. They are fast and can get where they need to be quickly. There are cheaper units to fulfil that role though. Like a ballista on field + unit of evocators. Same for me! I wish it were otherwise. Absolutely love the models. Did you take into account the extra killed model if Battleshock is failed? I assume you didn't, because it's not usually included into calculations. Raw damage, Evos on foot win. But Evos on Dracoline can start on the table, charge turn one (with a run+charge and run buff) reliably and with an Empower thrown on themselves. To do the same, Evocators need Scions, Gavriel "I'm on every single list" Sureheart (+ Hammers tax) and they won't have any buff on them. So I think a fair comparison would have Evos on Dracolines rerolling wounds while Evos on foot don't. It's a self-contained buff, it doesn't get the "but more points!" excuse On a slightly different note, they Will be 45€ for 3. Is it me or it feels like a steal?(in the good sense!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 I crunched the numbers on Evocators vs Dracolines. I assumed Grandstaves since they perform better on 4+ saves. You can see that without buffs the evocators on foot are almost twice as efficient as the Dracoline versions. However, with access to buffs that only they can get (charge damage bonus, pride leader, lord arcanum command ability) Dracolines become more cost effective. There are a lot of other factors to consider, such as: Spells cast per point is better on Evocators Models per point is better on Evocators Wounds per point is better on Evocators Unbinds per point is better on Evocators Cycle of the Storm is better on Dracolines Healing is better on Dracolines Dracolines have a Bravery debuff Dracolines can reroll charges Dracolines have much higher movement There's a few other scenarios I want to test, like taking Vandus Hammerhand 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, PJetski said: I crunched the numbers on Evocators vs Dracolines. I assumed Grandstaves since they perform better on 4+ saves. You can see that without buffs the evocators on foot are almost twice as efficient as the Dracoline versions. However, with access to buffs that only they can get (charge damage bonus, pride leader, lord arcanum command ability) Dracolines become more cost effective. There are a lot of other factors to consider, such as: Spells cast per point is better on Evocators Models per point is better on Evocators Wounds per point is better on Evocators Unbinds per point is better on Evocators Cycle of the Storm is better on Dracolines Healing is better on Dracolines Dracolines have a Bravery debuff Dracolines can reroll charges Dracolines have much higher movement There's a few other scenarios I want to test, like taking Vandus Hammerhand Why not Charge+reroll wounds option on Dracolines? It's a situation which can easily happen in a turn one charge (VS Evocators on foot where it's very unlikely outside Translocation). Edited July 31, 2018 by DanielFM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, DanielFM said: Why not Charge+reroll wounds option on Dracolines? It's a situation which can easily happen in a turn one charge (VS Evocators on foot where it's very unlikely outside Translocation). I forgot about Empower. It has a much bigger impact on Dracolines than it does on Evocators, since a bigger part of the Evocators damage comes from the lightning blast after attacking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kugane Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, DanielFM said: Did you take into account the extra killed model if Battleshock is failed? I assume you didn't, because it's not usually included into calculations. Raw damage, Evos on foot win. But Evos on Dracoline can start on the table, charge turn one (with a run+charge and run buff) reliably and with an Empower thrown on themselves. To do the same, Evocators need Scions, Gavriel "I'm on every single list" Sureheart (+ Hammers tax) and they won't have any buff on them. So I think a fair comparison would have Evos on Dracolines rerolling wounds while Evos on foot don't. It's a self-contained buff, it doesn't get the "but more points!" excuse On a slightly different note, they Will be 45€ for 3. Is it me or it feels like a steal?(in the good sense!) The extra lost model is all nice and fun, but you are looking at 1 model or so, which is 1 to 2 wounds. Which if included into the calculation is only anothet 0.33 to 0.66 damage, still underwhelming in my opinion. Even if so, regular evocators kill more, so the opponent would lose more models because of that as well, so that argumentation is flawed at best. Also I did mention they can start on the table and get where they need to be quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, PJetski said: I forgot about Empower. It has a much bigger impact on Dracolines than it does on Evocators, since a bigger part of the Evocators damage comes from the lightning blast after attacking. Just for completeness sake (if I didn't mess up) a charging, empowered Evolines unit does 12,33 PPW. With no external buffs, they are really close to Evocators (which don't get Empower the turn they arrive). So used properly (on the table using their mobility, turn 1 charges) and with some support, Evolines can perform better than Evocators. Evos on the sky, Dracolines on the ground. Nice and varied (better than Evocators on foot spam again and again), and you get the shiny Cleansing Phalanx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Kugane said: The extra lost model is all nice and fun, but you are looking at 1 model or so, which is 1 to 2 wounds. Which if included into the calculation is only anothet 0.33 to 0.66 damage, still underwhelming in my opinion. Even if so, regular evocators kill more, so the opponent would lose more models because of that as well, so that argumentation is flawed at best. Also I did mention they can start on the table and get where they need to be quickly. It's situational. Making a Varanguard flee is great, but attacking a group of freeguild immune to battleshock makes it worthless. Bravery debuffs get better the more you have, since they first help tests fail and then also increase the amount of models fleeing. It's worth considering. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, DanielFM said: Just for completeness sake (if I didn't mess up) a charging, empowered Evolines unit does 12,33 PPW. With no external buffs, they are really close to Evocators (which don't get Empower the turn they arrive). So used properly (on the table using their mobility, turn 1 charges) and with some support, Evolines can perform better than Evocators. Evos on the sky, Dracolines on the ground. Nice and varied (better than Evocators on foot spam again and again), and you get the shiny Cleansing Phalanx. It's also worth considering Dracoline deep strike, since they can reroll charges. They lose out on Empowerin that scenario, though. It seems like you need to build a list around Dracolines, while Evocators can slot into just about any army. Edited July 31, 2018 by PJetski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, PJetski said: It's situational. Making a Varanguard flee is great, but attacking a group of freeguild immune to battleshock makes it worthless. Bravery debuffs get better the more you have, since they first help tests fail and then also increase the amount of models fleeing. It's worth considering. Yeah, I messed up by wording it as "another model flee". -1 Bravery is a lot better. Against multiwound models (more and more these days) you need several wounds to get a -1 bravery. While the ability gives you that straight. I wouldn't throw Evolines against infantry blobs, anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielFM Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, PJetski said: It's also worth considering Dracoline deep strike, since they can reroll charges. They lose out on Empowerin that scenario, though. That makes them kind of versatile VS Evocators, doesn't it? On the ground for buffs and more power, or from Scions with a viable charge without external help. Evocators can do neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 It seems at the end that those mounted evocators aren't that bad. As a cavalry lover, I'll take one unit; but I dunno, I still prefer the fulminators. I'll think about 3 mounted EVO + 4 fulmi + evo to boost fulmi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wanderer Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Working on a 2k list for a tournament next month, currently thinking: Astreia Solbright -General -Keen Clawed Gavriel Sureheart Drakesworn Templar -God-forge blade -Arc Hammer -Keen Clawed Sequitors x5 - Prime, Greatmace -Greatmace x2 -Maul x2 Sequitors x5 - Prime, Greatmace -Greatmace x2 -Maul x2 Sequitors x5 - Prime, Greatmace -Greatmace x2 -Maul x2 Celestar Ballista Celestar Ballista Evocators x15 - Prime -Tempest Blade and Stormstave x8 -Grandstave x7 1940/2000 1 command point 117 wounds Basic strategy is the Sequitors form a battleline with the Astreia providing support and the Drake peppering mortal wounds and sitting back for a counter-charge into anything heavy. Gavriel and the Evocators sit in reserve ready to alpha-strike. Yes they won't get to use empower the turn they come down but the sheer strength they'll deploy should be able to tear through a huge chunk of the opposing army the turn they arrive. The ballista will also sit in reserve to be deployed in a good place to offer a ranged threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said: Working on a 2k list for a tournament next month, currently thinking: Astreia Solbright -General -Keen Clawed Drakesworn Templar -God-forge blade -Arc Hammer -Keen Clawed Your list can't take two mount traits Edited July 31, 2018 by PJetski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) I feel that this list lack of something. You have only 2 heavy hitters, one of them super expensive yet not really great at mobility. For me, evo are best at units of 5 or 10 tops. PS: I'm not sure if grandstave are optimal, especialy with no rend. But I understand that in a unit of 15 the 2" reach may be important Edited July 31, 2018 by GeneralZero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freejack02 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, PJetski said: Your list can't take two mount traits Really? Perhaps I missed the relevant section, but I thought each hero on an eligible mount could take 1... is that not the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Same number as artefacts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wanderer Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Cool, well I'll drop it on Asteria then, mount traits are generally more a nice to have than something critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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