AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Aeryenn]

4 minutes ago, lastlostboy said:

I'm aware. Healing up to 12 wounds over a battleround sounds like a good idea for something I want to push as a beatstick into action. 

It didn't cross my mind to use him in such an aggressive way. Seems fun and risky.

[lastlostboy]

23 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

It didn't cross my mind to use him in such an aggressive way. Seems fun and risky.

It's not that risky. 5+ 4+++ with 7 wounds and healing ALL over the place.

For 'Places of Power' and his cast buff you want to keep him anyway near woods. Now imagine a 'Treesong' too...

Edited June 18, 2022 by lastlostboy

[Tizianolol]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

They get strike first, more attacks, and a slightly better hit profile. Overall the damage output is probably about the same. 

Ye damage feel the same, thats why im hoping in a faq:):)

[Arzalyn]

8 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

Si, are we overall happy with the changes?

On the con side I see my Alarielle (over 800 points... really?) and Treelord Ancient alongside with Kurnoth Hubters with bows. I wonder if I will ever field them again?

On the bright side there's Durthu, melee KH, tree and spite-revenants, new Wyldwoods, other heroes... Mostly everything.

I really want to try out Harvestboon with Durthu, at least 3x3 KH and two dragonflies behind them.

Just ordered 2 of those flying things.

I'm over the moon with the new tome! So many lists ideas, so many combinations to try!

Honestly I don't think Alarielle is all that bad, she is expensive enough that fitting her in some lists will be hard, but I think the resurrection make her worth the try. I still don't like Bow hunters, but I can see they doing some work in a Heartwood list with a Archrevenant to babysit them. Sadly we can't improve their rend with Treesong, but the +1 to hit and _1 to wound vs their quarry should make them a little more reliable.

The Ancient is the one warscroll I would classify as bad so far, we are paying a lot for a okeish monster with less utility now. Still, his ability to place a woods anywhere (respecting the 3" placement rules) maybe can be relevant for lists using Spellsinger. Place a wood in you opponent deploy and cast some nasty endless spells or the Warsong/Wych bomb.

6 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

Can somebody please explain to me how to use Warsong Revenant? I've just painted my model and although it's gorgeous I'm not convinced if he is worth his points.

The most common use for him is the Spell bomb combo. Basically you place him near a wood (+1 to cast), pick gnarlroot and/or the Dweling as a season and a spell portal. place the portal with his first cast and them cast his warscroll spell (use the 3d6 and rerolls if possible here) to generate a high casting value and a good amount of mortal wounds. If you go first or against a opponent that like to castle up you can deal a good amount of mortals and even kill some 5 wounds heroes if you roll well.

6 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

The thing is, somebody has to do it. Having hunters sit on an out-of-the-way objective is a waste of hitting power and terrible inefficient. Also, we can’t mechanically churn out dryads every turn now that the branchwraith is gone, which means if we want to take 10 man squads we have to pay for them, and there is no easy way to get them there. Also some people preferred 10 man dryad squads because they had more wounds but now they have the same number of wounds in a squad (10), and cost nearly the same. I honestly can’t think of a good reason to take dryads over tree-revs for this kind of thing, especially because their combat profiles are about the same and teleports are now limited. 

Completely agree that a 10 dryads unit is completely overshadowed by them. The only corner case I can thing you would prefer 10 drayds is if you want a slightly bigger coverage for you screen (3 more models, as you wound need to do the 2 triangles in the points to keep the coherency). In 20 or 30 models I can see dryads having some play if you can keep them near the wood for the debuff, but it may be a little hard to do so.

[Jaskier]

9 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

The only thing that i hate in this.book is spiteriders lancers got only 1 damage. People say they got good damage but I think they are too mutch worst compared to seekers if they not fix it!

They are very similar in terms of overall damage output, the Seekers are slightly better but not by much. It comes down to just how much value you can derive out of the Lancers' strike first ability, as otherwise you're probably going to want the Seekers for their resurrections. 

I think the Treelord Ancient has only one real use besides the guaranteed extra wood; being nigh-unkillable with the right combo of trait, artifact and spell. I can see it being a real pain for opponents if you run Winterleaf for the no-retreat, but is it worth over 300 points? Probably not, as you can do something similar with the Treesong Revenant owing to its 4+ ward carrying the day while spitting out a plethora of mortal wounds. 

As for Alarielle, I think people are under-selling just how strong her resurrect is. It's a late-game summon of a monster model, you can immediately plop her down on an uncontested objective, or set her up so she can heal up on the next turn then start menacing the board - and even on the turn she comes down, she's still hurling a javelin that does 5 Damage thanks to her improved bracketing. Wholly within 12" of a wood/overgrown is quite generous for a summon, and if she's not dealt with immediately, she's going to heal back to full on the next turn and charge straight across the board to clear an objective or secure you a key battle tactic. If you bring her back on turn three (risky) or turn four (ideal) or turn five (only do this if you can set her up on an objective or spot where she will win you the game without needing to move) ideally you'll have dealt with some of the threats to her earlier and can use her more aggressively in the final turns. The other, simpler way to look at it is she's finally got a way around being alpha-struck - her classic fragility now has a thematic and potentially very powerful antidote. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Jaskier

[Lavieth]

10 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

Can somebody please explain to me how to use Warsong Revenant? I've just painted my model and although it's gorgeous I'm not convinced if he is worth his points.

That's very striking. Excellent work. 

[lastlostboy]

Did you guys do numbers for Oakenbrow yet?
That's insane.

Oakenbrow halves the number of wounds for damage tables for trees. But the 3rd Edition does have way more forgiving damage tables. (Like 40k.)
For models with 14 wounds - all trees - in means you get in the second row when you lose half of your wounds.
The highest amount of wounds you can lose is 13 - for Oakenbrow 6.5, rounded up to 7.
So every tree keeps the first row all the time except when being down to 1(!) wound. Then you get the second row. It will never get worse. (Except for that angel girl aura.)

Here I should remind you every unit in 9" to an Awakened Wyldwood or overgrown terrain feature heals 1 wound at the start of your hero phase. So even if the enemy ends their turn to get a tree down to 1 wound it will heal to the first row near a wood. That doesn't make trees indestructible of course but not able finishing off trees is really bad for your enemy.

I let you doing the math on an Oakenbrow Spirit fo Durthu with a Greenwood Gladius yourself...

Let's look at the generic Treelords in this Matched Play season.
In Oakenbrow they'll get battleline. Conditional battlelines lose every other battlefield role. Which means they lose behemoth and are just units.
Now in this season we have the Bounty Hunter battalion that adds + 1 damage to all GALLETIAN VETERANS. A keyword the enemy battleline units can't choose to get or not.

Long story short: You have Treelords with five 3+/3+ Damage 3 Attacks and two 2+/2+ Damage 4 Attacks that only gets a little worse if the enemy puts it down to 1 Wound (or kills it) and keeps it there.

On top of that Treelords have the ability to block the enemy pile-in on a hit in melee which also synergizes with their Groundshaker.

Finally I want to highlight that nothing of that needs other units to buff or interact. No tricky stacks of abilities or spells of x different units and thought-out positioning over the board. No, you just need the subfaction and maybe the battalion if you're playing the Machted Play season.

 

So I guess our roots run deep indeed.

Edited June 19, 2022 by lastlostboy

[Aeryenn]

Now i really want to see an Oakenbrow list 🙂

[Arzalyn]

5 hours ago, lastlostboy said:

Long story short: You have Treelords with five 3+/3+ Damage 3 Attacks and two 2+/2+ Damage 4 Attacks that only gets a little worse if the enemy puts it down to 1 Wound (or kills it) and keeps it there.

On top of that Treelords have the ability to block the enemy pile-in on a hit in melee which also synergizes with their Groundshaker.

Finally I want to highlight that nothing of that needs other units to buff or interact. No tricky stacks of abilities or spells of x different units and thought-out positioning over the board. No, you just need the subfaction and maybe the battalion if you're playing the Machted Play season.

Yeah the Treelords in Oakenbrow look promising! My only concern is that, while the don't suffer reduction on their damage as they take wounds, they damage isn't that high to start with (5 damage against a 3+ save and 8.6 damage against a 6+). Its better than it used to be, but they do the same damage as Lancers and less so than Sword/Scythes Kurnoths and Seekers, all which absorb buffs better. They fell more like a anvil that do some damage and that can hold a horde/infantry through correct positioning, supplementing them with some mortals spells could be a way to compensate the damage and win the long game.

[Warbossironteef]

I think Tree Revs counting as 3 and being Vets is really good. Great for certain battletactics. Such a small footprint for 15 models worth of scoring that can teleport. Easy to hide as well. 

Still struggling to figure out what to use for screens. Dyrads are okay but I really worry about using Vet units as screens. We'll have to see! 

[Arzalyn]

So what are the lists you are testing first?

I really want to test how good our casting buffs can be and if the TLA is as bad as it sees for his points. I landed in the following list to do so:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot
- Season of War: The Dwindling
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (305)*
- General
- Command Trait: Spellsinger
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Deepwood Spell: Treesong
Treelord Ancient (360)*
- Artefact: The Vesperal Gem
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Arch-Revenant (120)*

Battleline
20 x Dryads (200)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Gossamid Archers (220)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Vengeful Skullroot (60)

Core Battalions
*Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 8

Basic idea is to use the TLA rangeless forest (his greatest asset IMO) to set up a point for the Warsong to send his spell + the Skullroot. After that the Gossamid can teleport there and pick a weakened target + the ancient can go as well to bait some charges. I want to see if the Throne is enough healing to keep him alive. The other part of the list, the little deathstar of 20 dryads + 6 kurnoths + archrev I'm not as sure about. I could see changing any of those for other combination of hammers.

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

24 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

So what are the lists you are testing first?

I think I'm gonna do something Revenant- and Kurnoth-heavy for my FLGS's PTG campaign, with the Heartwood grove. Start with an Arch-rev and Branchwych, Gossamids for nasty screening, Lancers for mobility, and Kurnoths for battleline and punch, then expand with an Arch-Rev, Tree-Revs, and Durthu.

For events, I might try an Entmoot list, with a bunch of Treelords, Lady of Vines, and some Tree-revs for that competitive edge.

Edited June 20, 2022 by acr0ssth3p0nd

[Warbossironteef]

I'm using the models I have but trying the below. It's nothing fancy but I like the idea of Durthu being a hammer along with 6 Sycthes. Bring the spiteswarm hive for either launching guys through terrain or for more protection for Hunters. Not sure if the 20x Dryads will be good but it's what I own. I think auto reviving 1 Kurnoth with Warsong and 1 from Seekers is interesting. It's a shame Warsong lost knowing the whole lore because the healing spell would be really nice for Ethereal Durthu. 

Gnarlroot - Wargrove that expands tree buffs range

Durthu, ethereal, d3 attacks

Warsong - Gem revival spell

Arch Rev

20x Dryads

5x Tree Revs

5x Tree Revs

6x Kurnoth Sycthes 

3x Seekers 

1x Spiteswarm hive

 

 

[Warbossironteef]

I also would love to collect and try an army based around a unit of 9x Lancers and 3x Seekers. 

The fact they can strike and fade, rally be revived by Seekers, always hit first and move 14 mean you can stay out range of enemy, then on your turn, move, charge, fade and then be out of range of things again. I think it could be super good. 

[Jaskier]

I want to go Gnarlroot with the Dwindling season for maximum casting effectiveness to try and recreate the glory days of old Gnarlroot, and I really want to try out The Lady of Vines.  The obvious combo is coupling it with a Warsong/Branchwych and using either the spellportal or that cast-through-wood command trait to really push high mortal wounds. It's also good for The Lady of Vines and her amazing but otherwise unreliable 5++ bubble spell, plus the fact she is always in range for both the Gnarlroot and Dwindling effects. I think there's some real potential there (matchup dependent of course, thanks Teclis ) Another season that fits The Lady really well is Everdusk as she then becomes a portable source of exploding 6s! 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Jaskier

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, Warbossironteef said:

I also would love to collect and try an army based around a unit of 9x Lancers and 3x Seekers. 

The fact they can strike and fade, rally be revived by Seekers, always hit first and move 14 mean you can stay out range of enemy, then on your turn, move, charge, fade and then be out of range of things again. I think it could be super good. 

This actually might have a lot of merit, depending on the base size. 2" is slightly more than 50mm so if their bases are 50mm or less they can happily fight in two ranks, if not I can see it being hard to keep them wholly in range of woods (potentially even with the 12") for the fade-away unless you're willing to lose out on attacks. EDIT: Just checked, they are on 60mms...I think even with the old tri-pointing system that lets 32mms fight in two ranks it might not be enough to solve that issue for these guys. A 6" pile-in certainly helps but I'm still just worried about trying to get all of the models' attacks whilst staying wholly within wood range to fade away. 

It's a tough as nails unit even before accounting for it being virtually immune to shooting (woods) and very hard to catch and pin down (fade away.) The damage isn't great though, but I guess that's the trade-off for being so mobile and hard to shift.

For those wondering like I was, 9 Lancers (630) do slightly more melee damage against 4+ save baseline than 4 Stormdrakes (680) though obviously the Stormdrakes have overall higher output thanks to their shooting. 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Jaskier

[Arzalyn]

40 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

This actually might have a lot of merit, depending on the base size. 2" is slightly more than 50mm so if their bases are 50mm or less they can happily fight in two ranks, if not I can see it being hard to keep them wholly in range of woods (potentially even with the 12") for the fade-away unless you're willing to lose out on attacks. It's a tough as nails unit even before accounting for it being virtually immune to shooting (woods) and very hard to catch and pin down (fade away.) The damage isn't great though, but I guess that's the trade-off for being so mobile and hard to shift.

For those wondering like I was, 9 Lancers (630) do slightly more melee damage against 4+ save baseline than 4 Stormdrakes (680) though obviously the Stormdrakes have overall higher output thanks to their shooting. 

Sadly they are in 60mm bases. I'm not sure if it's worth it to even go above MSU with them if you want to strike and fade way.

 

[Jaskier]

2 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

Sadly they are in 60mm bases. I'm not sure if it's worth it to even go above MSU with them if you want to strike and fade way.

 

Funny timing, I'd just edited my post having seen they were on 60mms just as you replied 😅 Yeah it probably nips reinforcing the unit in the bud, they already don't have great damage output as it is and having to sacrifice attacks to keep their coherency and not stray outside of our various wholly within ranges is probably too big of an ask. 

[Aeryenn]

4 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

I'm using the models I have but trying the below. It's nothing fancy but I like the idea of Durthu being a hammer along with 6 Sycthes. Bring the spiteswarm hive for either launching guys through terrain or for more protection for Hunters. Not sure if the 20x Dryads will be good but it's what I own. I think auto reviving 1 Kurnoth with Warsong and 1 from Seekers is interesting. It's a shame Warsong lost knowing the whole lore because the healing spell would be really nice for Ethereal Durthu. 

Gnarlroot - Wargrove that expands tree buffs range

Durthu, ethereal, d3 attacks

Warsong - Gem revival spell

Arch Rev

20x Dryads

5x Tree Revs

5x Tree Revs

6x Kurnoth Sycthes 

3x Seekers 

1x Spiteswarm hive

 

 

Is it worth taking Gnarlroot with only one wizard? I'd rather use it with Alarielle + Branchwych or at least two other casters, like Warsong Revenant + Lady of Vines.

With my list I'm thinking more simple and I'm going for the dmg output.

Glade for KH battleline

Durthu

Arch-revenant

6x Scythes

3-6x Swords

3 Dragonflies

3 Dragonflies

And whatever points are left I would fill with Tree-revenants, dryads, Branchwych and/or Treelord.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Aeryenn

[Tizianolol]

I was thinking something about new dragonflies units! With wargrove that make them battleline you can move them before the 1 turn. You can be in combat first turn if you start to play first too. 1 unit of 6 lancers for exemple, you can charge enemy screens and you can maximize your unit to put as many lancers as possible because after you attack you can teleport back and put them again in coherency! Maybe you can play a unit of 9 of them too!!

[Marcvs]

28 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

I was thinking something about new dragonflies units! With wargrove that make them battleline you can move them before the 1 turn. You can be in combat first turn if you start to play first too. 1 unit of 6 lancers for exemple, you can charge enemy screens and you can maximize your unit to put as many lancers as possible because after you attack you can teleport back and put them again in coherency! Maybe you can play a unit of 9 of them too!!

you can't intentionally move out if coherency though if that's the trick you're suggesting

[Arzalyn]

6 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

Is it worth taking Gnarlroot with only one wizard? I'd rather use it with Alarielle + Branchwych or at least two other casters, like Warsong Revenant + Lady of Vines.

With my list I'm thinking more simple and I'm going for the dmg output.

Glade for KH battleline

Durthu

Arch-revenant

6x Scythes

3-6x Swords

3 Dragonflies

3 Dragonflies

And whatever points are left I would fill with Tree-revenants, dryads, Branchwych and/or Treelord.

I think its a little of a gamble taking it with just one wizard. If you go against any strong shooting list you may end without a subfaction/season with just one wizard.

Your list idea sounds fun, you can easily have a pretty fast army with the Warsinger on Durthu (or Archrev if you prefer a more mobile bubble). Maybe something like this?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Heartwood
- Season of War: The Reaping
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Spirit of Durthu (370)
- General
- Command Trait: Warsinger
- Artefact: Crown of Fell Bowers
Arch-Revenant (120)

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)
5 x Tree-Revenants (110)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatswords (250)
6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)
- Reinforced x 1

Units
3 x Revenant Seekers (235)
3 x Revenant Seekers (235)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
Drops: 8

Reaping is to compensate the fact that you cant set up more woods, so a bigger bubble around the overgrowth terrain will be important. Maybe this will be less of a concern when the Kurnoth get into a objective and start conting as overgrowth. I can see chancing the Crown for the Acorn just to have a extra wood near the opponent deploys if needed after the first turn. Another possibility would be changing dropping 1 unit of tree revs for a Branchwych + the Hive/Wyrm and this would also open the possibility of an extra artefact if you don't worry about your drops. This would make also help with getting extra woods if you need during the game. I will add this one to my "to test" lists for sure!

[Warbossironteef]

7 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

Is it worth taking Gnarlroot with only one wizard? I'd rather use it with Alarielle + Branchwych or at least two other casters, like Warsong Revenant + Lady of Vines.

With my list I'm thinking more simple and I'm going for the dmg output.

Glade for KH battleline

Durthu

Arch-revenant

6x Scythes

3-6x Swords

3 Dragonflies

3 Dragonflies

And whatever points are left I would fill with Tree-revenants, dryads, Branchwych and/or Treelord.

It is worth testing but the thing about KH and Durthu lists is that they are very very slow.  Warsong with +1 to cast and rolling 3 dice gives you a good shot at getting off SpiteSwarm, which in my opinion is great with the new season that expands the range on our tree buffs to 12. 

It allows you do more aggressive combos of teleporting, making a charge and then strike and fading. 

[Landohammer]

On 6/18/2022 at 1:12 PM, Aeryenn said:

Can somebody please explain to me how to use Warsong Revenant? I've just painted my model and although it's gorgeous I'm not convinced if he is worth his points.

 

I was never a Warsong Revenant user prior to this tome. I never even bothered painting mine despite loving the model. The meta was just magic heavy and we are too limited on points. But his new melee profile absolutely slaps. He gets 5 damage 3 attacks and then a few rend 1 sword attacks. He will hit about as hard as a treelord in combat, has a ward and never brackets. Similar to Lady of Vines and Drycha, he is a powerful support tool and can fullfill multiple roles.

 

On 6/19/2022 at 4:18 AM, lastlostboy said:

Did you guys do numbers for Oakenbrow yet?
That's insane.
 

 

So I guess our roots run deep indeed.

Wow good catch. I'm not super impressed with the new Treelords profile for their points TBH, but I think oakenbrow definitely pushes them into the realm of possibility. And being able to field them as bounty hounters, combined with their pile-in denial and ASL, they can become absolute infantry shredders.

Imagine charging a powerful melee unit like graveguard or fyreslayers, triggering ASL, denying pile in, and then swinging for damage 3 and 4 attacks on them. And then repeat. 

[Domize]

7 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I was never a Warsong Revenant user prior to this tome. I never even bothered painting mine despite loving the model. The meta was just magic heavy and we are too limited on points. But his new melee profile absolutely slaps. He gets 5 damage 3 attacks and then a few rend 1 sword attacks. He will hit about as hard as a treelord in combat, has a ward and never brackets. Similar to Lady of Vines and Drycha, he is a powerful support tool and can fullfill multiple roles.

He is still damage 2, unless you mean taking flaming weapon on him. But since he doesn't know the entire lore anymore, it's probably better to take something from the lore that fills his support role better.

Also, an important detail I missed about the Spiteswam Hive is that it only targets one unit now. It has increased range to 9", but you can't get +3" charge on both Durthu and a unit of Kurnoths anymore.