AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Landohammer]

19 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

So would her summon allow her to summon within 6" of herself? 

That is a good question. The summoned dryads are a friendly unit, and if they are setup within 6" of her, they would immediately be treated as if they are wholly within 6" of a wildwood. 

Not sure if that is the intent, but RAW it looks like she can summon around herself. 

[Walkirriox]

2 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

That is a good question. The summoned dryads are a friendly unit, and if they are setup within 6" of her, they would immediately be treated as if they are wholly within 6" of a wildwood. 

Not sure if that is the intent, but RAW it looks like she can summon around herself. 

I don’t think so, as it is written: “units wholly within 6” of this unit are treated as being wholly within 6” of a ww”. So I think you can take advantage of the buffs from ww (durthu, dryads, flautist, and maybe new ones), tp from there, but I don’t think you can summon on her as she is not a ww, the units are not there yet to be considered in a ww. I don’t think you can tp to her either.

I don’t know the intention of the designers, the tome is not even out and I think we will need some FAQs already.

[Arzalyn]

Durthu warscroll finally appeared!

Spoiler

14 wounds, move 5", save 3+, bravery 9

Verdant blast - 15" * +4/+3/-1/2

Guardian Sword - 3" 3 +3/+3/-2/*

Talons - 1" 2 +2/*/-2/3

Damage table                Blast                   Sword                        Talons

0-6 wounds                     6                          6                                +2

7-8 wounds                     5                         D6                              +3

9-10 wounds                   4                         D3                              +4

11+ wounds                    3                          1                               +5

Stomp - now is a monstrous rampage, strike last on a enemy within 3" on a 3+

Wrathful Guardian - 1+ to the sword while wholly within 9" of a overgrowth terrain feature or woods.

Spirit path - start of movement, if wholly within 6" of overgrowth terrain or woods can teleport to wholly within 6" of another overgrowth terrain or woods and more than 9" way from enemies.

Durthu confirm our suspicious, overgrowth terrain will be something relevant to us and I bet we gonna get a spell that make terrain overgrowth (and maybe some once per game abilities/artefacts) as well!

As for the scroll itself, its fine. The blast and talons damage is a improvement and the damage table is much better for the sword as it goes to D6 only after 6 wounds. In a vaccum, considering he is more expensive now I don't think this would change his usage much. The lady seens to offer more for a similar price tag, as Durthu is mostly a damage beast. I hope we get a good amount of healing, as it would make keeping him at less than 6 wounds much easier!

[Mirage8112]

3 hours ago, Aezeal said:

The summon ofcourse makes her effectively somewhat cheaper though 10 dryads with no rend often don't really help very much (but this may just be my frustration after a few games in a row against stormcasts with nearly only 2+/3+ saves .)

10 dryads aren’t exactly there for combat prowess, but they make bangin’ screens. It’s basically a 10 wound buffer that she can throw down to protect herself, or capture an objective if necessary. She can basically go from 10 wounds to 20 on a 2+. 
 

3 hours ago, Walkirriox said:

I don’t think so, as it is written: “units wholly within 6” of this unit are treated as being wholly within 6” of a ww”. So I think you can take advantage of the buffs from ww (durthu, dryads, flautist, and maybe new ones), tp from there, but I don’t think you can summon on her as she is not a ww, the units are not there yet to be considered in a ww. I don’t think you can tp to her either.

Definitely need an faq on this one, but I’m leaning the opposite way.

 

Anything within 6” of her counts as being within 6” of a WW. She isn’t a WW herself, so she’s can’t use the overgrown wilderness or vengeful forest spirits rule, but if something is required to be within 6” of a WW to use an ability then she counts for those purposes. 
 

The dryads -1 to hit and durthu’s extra sword hits are worded that the unit needs to be within 6” of a WW. The wording for setting up dryads is the same: “wholly within 6” of a wild wood” I don’t see why it would work for one ability and not the other if the wording is identical.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Mirage8112

[Jaskier]

The Lady of Vines is so darn good at first glance. 10 wounds non-degrading that isn't a monster is a bit iffy, but she is pretty darn tough as-is - especially if you get her (incredible) spell off. Her damage output is really good when you consider she has a 3" reach and thus can safely attack over screens, and her shooting attack is fine. A good two cast wizard with a built-in summon is already worth a fair bit, and then you add that she gives out a Wyldwood buff aura on a very big base - which makes her spell even better practically - and she looks like a genuinely great utility/jack-of-all-trades hero. We need to see the Wyldwood rules to get a better idea but I'm loving her rules so far. 

I'm still positive but a bit more mixed on Durthu. Extra 2 wounds, vastly improved damage table, etc are all great. The Talon change is actually a massive boost to his average output as it's two 2+ 2+ -2 3 Damage attacks, whereas before you had to roll a 6 to do anything worthwhile with it, and this compensates for losing an attack near a wood. The stomp being a rampage isn't great though, as now only one Treelord can do it, Hunters are immune to it (i.e. the things you'll often really want it against) and it's in place of another rampage - but it's on a 3+ now so more reliable when you need it. The flat Damage 2 on his shooting attack is also nice, but I'm not sure those changes justify the big points increase he got. Will definitely need to see what the book offers him in terms of traits and allegiance stuff to judge his full value, but overall, I'm happy with him.

[Jetlife]

29 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

The Lady of Vines is so darn good at first glance. 10 wounds non-degrading that isn't a monster is a bit iffy, but she is pretty darn tough as-is - especially if you get her (incredible) spell off. Her damage output is really good when you consider she has a 3" reach and thus can safely attack over screens, and her shooting attack is fine. A good two cast wizard with a built-in summon is already worth a fair bit, and then you add that she gives out a Wyldwood buff aura on a very big base - which makes her spell even better practically - and she looks like a genuinely great utility/jack-of-all-trades hero. We need to see the Wyldwood rules to get a better idea but I'm loving her rules so far. 

I'm still positive but a bit more mixed on Durthu. Extra 2 wounds, vastly improved damage table, etc are all great. The Talon change is actually a massive boost to his average output as it's two 2+ 2+ -2 3 Damage attacks, whereas before you had to roll a 6 to do anything worthwhile with it, and this compensates for losing an attack near a wood. The stomp being a rampage isn't great though, as now only one Treelord can do it, Hunters are immune to it (i.e. the things you'll often really want it against) and it's in place of another rampage - but it's on a 3+ now so more reliable when you need it. The flat Damage 2 on his shooting attack is also nice, but I'm not sure those changes justify the big points increase he got. Will definitely need to see what the book offers him in terms of traits and allegiance stuff to judge his full value, but overall, I'm happy with him.

Yeah, I’m with you. All the changes feel like they are heading in the right direction. So far all the new Battletomes have been really good at cleaning up rules and improving weaknesses. Im hoping for some solid alligence abilities that pair with these changes to make them just right 

[Kramig]

[Beliman]

6 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

The dryads -1 to hit and durthu’s extra sword hits are worded that the unit needs to be within 6” of a WW. The wording for setting up dryads is the same: “wholly within 6” of a wild wood” I don’t see why it would work for one ability and not the other if the wording is identical.

I think that's because the miniatures summoned are not on the table until they are being set-up. To set-up this unit, there is a condition (need to be set-up wholly within 6" of an Awakening Wyldwood), you need to met that requirement or your unit can't be set-up.

The Crown ability only affects units that are wholly within 6" of The Lady of Vines. In other words, this ability only affects units that are already on the table.

 

[Abstract_duck]

The SoD makes me interested in the artefacts the Sylvaneth will have. While the Lady seems better at this point.. Let's not forget that artefacts can be game-changing! 

 

 

[OkayestDM]

13 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

Durthu confirm our suspicious, overgrowth terrain will be something relevant to us and I bet we gonna get a spell that make terrain overgrowth (and maybe some once per game abilities/artefacts) as well!

If these speculations are correct, maybe Allarielle will get a once-per-turn ability to automatically make a terrain feature overgrown. It would be both thematic and fitting of her godly status.

[Landohammer]

10 hours ago, Jaskier said:

The Lady of Vines is so darn good at first glance. 10 wounds non-degrading that isn't a monster is a bit iffy, but she is pretty darn tough as-is - especially if you get her (incredible) spell off. Her damage output is really good when you consider she has a 3" reach and thus can safely attack over screens, and her shooting attack is fine. A good two cast wizard with a built-in summon is already worth a fair bit, and then you add that she gives out a Wyldwood buff aura on a very big base - which makes her spell even better practically - and she looks like a genuinely great utility/jack-of-all-trades hero. We need to see the Wyldwood rules to get a better idea but I'm loving her rules so far. 

I'm still positive but a bit more mixed on Durthu. Extra 2 wounds, vastly improved damage table, etc are all great. The Talon change is actually a massive boost to his average output as it's two 2+ 2+ -2 3 Damage attacks, whereas before you had to roll a 6 to do anything worthwhile with it, and this compensates for losing an attack near a wood. The stomp being a rampage isn't great though, as now only one Treelord can do it, Hunters are immune to it (i.e. the things you'll often really want it against) and it's in place of another rampage - but it's on a 3+ now so more reliable when you need it. The flat Damage 2 on his shooting attack is also nice, but I'm not sure those changes justify the big points increase he got. Will definitely need to see what the book offers him in terms of traits and allegiance stuff to judge his full value, but overall, I'm happy with him.

Lady of Vines is an auto take for me. She adds so much to the army while also hitting like a truck. 10 wounds, -1 to hit, and potential 5+ ward is spicy too! Means you will be on a 2+ when needed.

I am digging Durthu. Keep in mind that Hunters will probably go away since the new GHB is gonna hit soon. I am REALLY curious at what a vanilla tree lord will look like now with the new stomp and talon attacks. And finally the TLA will have at least SOME combat punch. 

Looks like they are really pushing the tree models into survivability. I'm betting the bug cavalry will be squishy just like the gossamids. 

[Mirage8112]

7 hours ago, Beliman said:

I think that's because the miniatures summoned are not on the table until they are being set-up. To set-up this unit, there is a condition (need to be set-up wholly within 6" of an Awakening Wyldwood), you need to met that requirement or your unit can't be set-up.

The Crown ability only affects units that are wholly within 6" of The Lady of Vines. In other words, this ability only affects units that are already on the table.

 

No, I understand the reasoning behind it, I’m just not sure it’s correct. I’m pretty content to wait and see what the designers commentary says once it’s officially released. 

It’s weird mechanic to be sure, and I can’t think of any comparable parallel in the game at the moment. In any case, if you’re planning ahead it should be fairly easy to find a spot to get those dryads on the table. If you don’t have any available woods, that probably a strategic mistake anyway. 

[Jetlife]

20 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Lady of Vines is an auto take for me. She adds so much to the army while also hitting like a truck. 10 wounds, -1 to hit, and potential 5+ ward is spicy too! Means you will be on a 2+ when needed.

I am digging Durthu. Keep in mind that Hunters will probably go away since the new GHB is gonna hit soon. I am REALLY curious at what a vanilla tree lord will look like now with the new stomp and talon attacks. And finally the TLA will have at least SOME combat punch. 

Looks like they are really pushing the tree models into survivability. I'm betting the bug cavalry will be squishy just like the gossamids. 

Yes! I hope they kind of split play styles between the spirts and trees like you said. Having the spirits be quicker but not very survivable while the actual trees are tough to chew through. Giving players multiple ways and styles to field an army. 

[Warbossironteef]

*remove*

FSpefSFWQAEvThx.jfif

Edited May 13, 2022 by Warbossironteef

[Warbossironteef]

[Warbossironteef]

They removed her command ability....

[Mokoshkana]

Seems like she is better overall though. There will likely be some allegiance or glade command abilities to replace what was lost.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Mokoshkana

[Warbossironteef]

I wonder if any units will be given the body guard rule. I could see Tree Revs maybe. GW has really been liking that type of unit this edition. 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Warbossironteef

[Arzalyn]

18 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

So a little more damage (extra horn and spear got a melee attack), updated summons and making terrain overgrowth. Not bad, but we really need to see what our allegiances will give her before saying anything. I really hope there are more ways to give terrain overgrowth other than her rampage...

16 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

They removed her command ability....

Judging by the other 3.0 tomes, that was expected. Most of the new tomes have at most 1 command ability in all of their warscroll/allegiances, if any.

[Jaskier]

She's definitely improved, assuming that she kept her 3 casts (potato cam angle makes it look like a 2 but it's probably still a 3 as her unbinds are still 3.) She lost her command ability which isn't great obviously but given re-rolls have been disappearing everywhere that isn't a surprise. Her Spear now also has max 5 Damage instead of 6. However, she now;
1) Gets a Spear attack in melee. 
2) Gained an extra Antler attack. 
3) Her talon no longer negates itself on any roll except a 6. 
Meaning her overall damage output shot way up! Give her +1 to-hit and all those Spear and Antler attacks are hitting and wounding on 2s at Rend 2 with Damage 5; she effectively gained 50% more melee output, which is pretty crazy when you consider those attacks are super high quality. 

As others have noted, she doesn't have access to the entire spell lore per her warscroll but that's because they've been moving those sorts of abilities to the actual spell lores in books, so she probably still has the entire Sylvaneth lore but, much like what the FAQ already did to her, she only gets access to if it she's taken in a Sylvaneth army (i.e. she works the same way Nagash does.) Her new monstrous rampage is also really cool, allowing us to create even more overgrown terrain as some of us had suspected. She can now also summon those new units coming out; the Archers at minimum will be a good alternative summon option. Gaining Warmaster is nice and expected. 

Overall, thumbs up - provided her points don't trend upwards too much. She's going to hit like a truck with those two extra Damage 5 attacks in combat, though she of course retains her classic weakness to massed mortal wounds. Very exciting stuff though, this looks to be her best incarnation yet! 

 

[Landohammer]

27 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

She's definitely improved, assuming that she kept her 3 casts (potato cam angle makes it look like a 2 but it's probably still a 3 as her unbinds are still 3.) She lost her command ability which isn't great obviously but given re-rolls have been disappearing everywhere that isn't a surprise. Her Spear now also has max 5 Damage instead of 6. However, she now;
1) Gets a Spear attack in melee. 
2) Gained an extra Antler attack. 
3) Her talon no longer negates itself on any roll except a 6. 
Meaning her overall damage output shot way up! Give her +1 to-hit and all those Spear and Antler attacks are hitting and wounding on 2s at Rend 2 with Damage 5; she effectively gained 50% more melee output, which is pretty crazy when you consider those attacks are super high quality. 

As others have noted, she doesn't have access to the entire spell lore per her warscroll but that's because they've been moving those sorts of abilities to the actual spell lores in books, so she probably still has the entire Sylvaneth lore but, much like what the FAQ already did to her, she only gets access to if it she's taken in a Sylvaneth army (i.e. she works the same way Nagash does.) Her new monstrous rampage is also really cool, allowing us to create even more overgrown terrain as some of us had suspected. She can now also summon those new units coming out; the Archers at minimum will be a good alternative summon option. Gaining Warmaster is nice and expected. 

Overall, thumbs up - provided her points don't trend upwards too much. She's going to hit like a truck with those two extra Damage 5 attacks in combat, though she of course retains her classic weakness to massed mortal wounds. Very exciting stuff though, this looks to be her best incarnation yet! 

 

Agreed on all points. They fixed her biggest issues: Lack of melee output, and the talon. Now spear can contribute in melee finally.

Also of note, is that the Branchwraith is not present on her summoning table and its still only 10 spite revenants. 

Hopefully this indicates Spites start out as units of 10 so they don't burn reinforcement points.

I don't really care about the loss of her CA. It was cool in theory but she was almost always using AOA or AOD in combat. 

[pixieproxy]

I just really hope the overgrown terrain thing isn't JUST on her

[Arzalyn]

6 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Also of note, is that the Branchwraith is not present on her summoning table and its still only 10 spite revenants. 

Hopefully this indicates Spites start out as units of 10 so they don't burn reinforcement points.

I doubt this will be the case, she summons 20 dryads as well. Now a days GW unit size is either exactly how much come in a box of the unit or the box comes with 2x the size, but the last one mostly happen for 25mm horde units.

My beat is that the wraith will loose the summoning spell and get the same summoning ability the Lady got. If that is the case it makes sense to leave the Wraith out, as you would summon a unit that will summon another unit.

[Landohammer]

38 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

I doubt this will be the case, she summons 20 dryads as well. Now a days GW unit size is either exactly how much come in a box of the unit or the box comes with 2x the size, but the last one mostly happen for 25mm horde units.

My beat is that the wraith will loose the summoning spell and get the same summoning ability the Lady got. If that is the case it makes sense to leave the Wraith out, as you would summon a unit that will summon another unit.

If Branchwraith auto summons on 2+ and stays a wizard (and also maintains her reasonable point cost) then she will be really strong. I would be surprised if the model doesn't get dropped enitrely tho. Its positively ancient and the branchwych is too similar.  

 

[maitremage]

Concerning Alarielle, I think the only nerf is that she will not knowthe whole lore : in the new Morathi’s warscroll, thé fact that she knows all spells is mentionned.

Or it is a GW’s mistake but I don’t think so. But the rest of the warscroll is, I think, better so it’s not a big deal