AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Kirjava13]

Hmmm. Thanks! Getting rid of the GoS and adding the Cogs leaves me with 180 points to play with- 12 Glaivewraiths? Another ten Grimghasts? 2 Chainghasts and some Myrnmourn Banshees? 

I'm a bit miffed the Bladegheists aren't out yet, as 20 of them would fit beautifully!

[Nighthaunt Noob]

17 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Hmmm. Thanks! Getting rid of the GoS and adding the Cogs leaves me with 180 points to play with- 12 Glaivewraiths? Another ten Grimghasts? 2 Chainghasts and some Myrnmourn Banshees? 

I'm a bit miffed the Bladegheists aren't out yet, as 20 of them would fit beautifully!

*10 of them. 

I'm also looking forward to their release in a little over a week!

[Richelieu]

26 minutes ago, ianob said:

Heroes do not win games, units win games. Especially at 1k where you haven’t hit critical mass of units on the board, heroes are how you lose.

Id suggest dropping to the minimum number of heroes you can run in whatever 1k ruleset you’re using. Reikenor alone is a good bet. Add Cogs, because it is 100% needed for Nighthaunt to charge from the underworld, and spend the rest on more models in your units, or more units. Preferably fighty ones, you have enough points invested into filler (Chainrasps) already.

I agree with you but... Didn't you just win a tournament using Nagash? ?

[Kirjava13]

11 minutes ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

*10 of them. 

I'm also looking forward to their release in a little over a week!

They're 90 for 10, aren't they? So 20 for 180?

[ianob]

14 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I agree with you but... Didn't you just win a tournament using Nagash? ?

I won it with Grimghasts, Nagash is just a support piece

Im not even kidding. Grimghasts are life. Ironically.

Edited August 2, 2018 by ianob

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

2 hours ago, ianob said:

Add Cogs, because it is 100% needed for Nighthaunt to charge from the underworld

Isn't that for unmodified charge rolls? I feel like I've missed something here, thanks in advance 

[KoalaSnok]

3 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

They're 90 for 10, aren't they? So 20 for 180?

90 for 5

[TheWolfLord]

4 hours ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

Isn't that for unmodified charge rolls? I feel like I've missed something here, thanks in advance 

Cogs add 2” to your charge so if you’re setting up 9” away from the enemy the charge goes from very unlikely to slightly better than half.

The chance of getting an extra attack doesn’t improve.

[ianob]

5 hours ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

Isn't that for unmodified charge rolls? I feel like I've missed something here, thanks in advance 

It’s nothing to do with hitting a 10, that’s only ever a nice random bonus. It’s just to give you higher chances of actually getting into combat.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

6 minutes ago, ianob said:

It’s nothing to do with hitting a 10, that’s only ever a nice random bonus. It’s just to give you higher chances of actually getting into combat

Ah I see I knew there would be something, the charge from the underworld you mentioned for dramatic effect, I thought you were referring to that roll 10 rule 

[ianob]

7 minutes ago, TeddyMadeMeDoIt said:

Ah I see I knew there would be something, the charge from the underworld you mentioned for dramatic effect, I thought you were referring to that roll 10 rule 

Nothing special, just that trying for 9s  doesn't win games. They've cleverly cut back on almost all of the things that break the "9 to charge" rule to cut down on alpha strikes, but as it turns out that's just meant that armies with the best access to other ways to do it are now better and Nighthaunt get the slightly short end of the stick.

[Rachmani]

I haven‘t had the time to look into the Nighthaunt too much, but I think Shroudguard & Deathriders compliment each other very well - and not only thematically. 

Has anyone experimented in that direction, so far?

Shroudguard should make a pretty formidable anvil. Hexwraith and the coach (especially the latter) pack some punch. 

As a bonus, it looks good. You have your knight of Shrouds (on foot or horseback), accompanied by his Shroudguard his warriors of old. 

As a plot twist, He was a vampire once, but was slain by some enemy hero. Now he awaits resurrection within the black coach only being able to manifest as a shadow - the Knight of Shrouds. Dreadblade Harrows, is former second(s) in command guard the coach and lead it into battle for it to gain strength. The Hexwraith (that look awfully dated, now that the new models are out *cry*), former knights of valor are now cursed to follow. 

So we have the „big swords“ theme on the KoS, the Dreadblades & Bladegheists - and also on the coach, where one of the ghosts carries a sword as a reliquary. 

But we also have the scythes theme, in the Cairnwraith on top of the coach, the Hexwraith & maybe one unit of Grimghasts just for fun & thematic consistency.

I think that would look very good on the field but also doesn‘t look weak right away.

[Rachmani]

13 minutes ago, ianob said:

Nothing special, just that trying for 9s  doesn't win games. They've cleverly cut back on almost all of the things that break the "9 to charge" rule to cut down on alpha strikes, but as it turns out that's just meant that armies with the best access to other ways to do it are now better and Nighthaunt get the slightly short end of the stick.

I have the feeling that they will try to limit alpha strikes in future releases (or release armies with, let‘s call it thematically limited alpha strike potential), look how it goes and then maybe come back to the older stuff. Alpha strike is such a make or break thing... .

[ianob]

5 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

I have the feeling that they will try to limit alpha strikes in future releases (or release armies with, let‘s call it thematically limited alpha strike potential), look how it goes and then maybe come back to the older stuff. Alpha strike is such a make or break thing... .

Gavriel Sureheart is not old, SCE and Nighthaunt's new ability to deepstrike everything is not old, Idoneth Deepkin aren't old, Cogs aren't old. In fact, we're seeing MORE new army releases with a deepstrike mechanic and a way to circumvent the 9" charge right now than ever before. This is the alpha strike meta.

Luckily LoN are quite good at taking a charge on the chin, so it's not a big deal for us, but it's a big deal for all of those other armies that aren't quite as good at it and are being pushed out of the meta already!

 

Our latest podcast is up now which has a good "state of the meta" discussion as well as a chunk of discussion on Nighthaunt specifically:

http://podcast.justplaygames.uk/state-of-the-meta-010818-why-nighthaunt-missed-the-mark-and-final-blackout-prep

Edited August 2, 2018 by ianob

[Rachmani]

48 minutes ago, ianob said:

Gavriel Sureheart is not old, SCE and Nighthaunt's new ability to deepstrike everything is not old, Idoneth Deepkin aren't old, Cogs aren't old. In fact, we're seeing MORE new army releases with a deepstrike mechanic and a way to circumvent the 9" charge right now than ever before. This is the alpha strike meta.

Luckily LoN are quite good at taking a charge on the chin, so it's not a big deal for us, but it's a big deal for all of those other armies that aren't quite as good at it and are being pushed out of the meta already!

I meant the „by then older stuff“.  

To me there is a big difference between a deepstrike & a 9“ charge without help & a swoop across the board & a then 5“ charge or something like that. Basically what was trying to say is, there is good alpha strike, because of risk and reward being fairly balanced & there is bad alpha strike that just leads to lopsided games. Or, just as bad & as you mentioned, whole armies that are all of a sudden out of any sort of meta.

Some sort & form of alpha strike will always and probably always has to exist. It has to keep gunlines and Nagash etc in check.

But a whole meta built around it is just as boring as the other way round. 

So, I could be wrong, but Nighthaunt look relatively balanced in terms of their alpha strike potential. They, as you said, lack the shenanigans on top of deepstrike. So it appears to be more of an alpha threat than an alpha strike army. And if you can’t reliably charge after deepstrike you plan differently and it gets more tactical. Your opponent can then react, so the non deepstrike part of your army has to do its part etc. 

It’s not „hey, turn one, I charge you, no matter where you are“. That is where some armies just get slaughtered and pushed out of any resemblance of tournament play. Would you agree, or did I miss something?

 

Edit 1: I forgot about the cogs - which I think are not a good addition to the game at all. 

Edit 2: Thanks for the podcast link! I‘ll listen to it - and maybe change the above answer  . Thanks! I love to listen to some meta talks, be it general or army specific. Even though I myself try to not get entangled in it all too much. Makes me not buy and paint the stuff I like, if I do (like KO ! ).

Edited August 2, 2018 by Rachmani

[dmorley21]

40 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

I haven‘t had the time to look into the Nighthaunt too much, but I think Shroudguard & Deathriders compliment each other very well - and not only thematically. 

Has anyone experimented in that direction, so far?

Shroudguard should make a pretty formidable anvil. Hexwraith and the coach (especially the latter) pack some punch. 

As a bonus, it looks good. You have your knight of Shrouds (on foot or horseback), accompanied by his Shroudguard his warriors of old. 

As a plot twist, He was a vampire once, but was slain by some enemy hero. Now he awaits resurrection within the black coach only being able to manifest as a shadow - the Knight of Shrouds. Dreadblade Harrows, is former second(s) in command guard the coach and lead it into battle for it to gain strength. The Hexwraith (that look awfully dated, now that the new models are out *cry*), former knights of valor are now cursed to follow. 

So we have the „big swords“ theme on the KoS, the Dreadblades & Bladegheists - and also on the coach, where one of the ghosts carries a sword as a reliquary. 

But we also have the scythes theme, in the Cairnwraith on top of the coach, the Hexwraith & maybe one unit of Grimghasts just for fun & thematic consistency.

I think that would look very good on the field but also doesn‘t look weak right away.

I agree that Deathriders seems like a great flanking battalion while Shroudguard seems like a great mainline battalion. I'm just not sure how to fit them both into a 2k list without having limited magic defense. 

[Rachmani]

Just now, dmorley21 said:

I agree that Deathriders seems like a great flanking battalion while Shroudguard seems like a great mainline battalion. I'm just not sure how to fit them both into a 2k list without having limited magic defense. 

Me neither! Still... looks very appealing. So even if it‘s not for 2k play, it might still be worth collecting. If the Hexwraith looked better (which I ironically really liked before the new Nighthaunt release) I probably would have started collecting right away.

[ianob]

Shroudguard is one of the best battalions in the book.

Deathriders is awful, because Hexwraiths are awful and the Black Coach is so-so.

Battalions are only really as good as the models they contain unless they do something outlandish. None of the NH bats do anything outlandish, so your first point of call for assessing them is "do I want these models in my army". Don't get suckered in by cool battalion abilities bolted on to bad models.

[Rachmani]

Well, depends on your goals. For some it‘s ok to do well, if the army as a whole is fun to play and you bond with your guys and their story etc. 

For others it isn‘t.

And I think nobody enjoys painting a cool army just to get your ass whooped  every time.  That also really takes the fun out of the game =D.

So, yeah, some kind of balance has to be archived, no matter how fluff related you play. And that balance always has to do with how strong your guys are.

So I think apart from cavalry looking good next to the coach, the Hexwraith in said army idea could (even storywise) be Grimghasts, which I think would make a stronger choice - although maybe not better looking or not as well fitting (Hey, did I mention how dated the Hexwraith look? ).

[GeneralZero]

46 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

Hey, did I mention how dated the Hexwraith look?

You forget something really important: I admit that as soon as the new NH has been out, they took what we call in France "un coup de vieux" which means a hitting  in their age but...

The hex are PERFECTLY swapable with the black knight!! I won't speak here about the efficiency (of hex or BK) but model wise, it is one of the rarest unit perfectly swappable without magnetize. And as a death player, I am supper happy with that. BK look awesom BTW. And they are so beatiful in an skelleton army.

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, ianob said:

Shroudguard is one of the best battalions in the book.

Deathriders is awful, because Hexwraiths are awful and the Black Coach is so-so.

Battalions are only really as good as the models they contain unless they do something outlandish. None of the NH bats do anything outlandish, so your first point of call for assessing them is "do I want these models in my army". Don't get suckered in by cool battalion abilities bolted on to bad models.

Good to hear. Hexwraiths seem expensive for what they do - I thought they were pretty serviceable though.

Now I wouldn't want to take more than one unit of 10, which is a strike against Deathriders to me. 

However, if you run it you get +1 to charge. If you get Cogs off, that's +3 to any charge. With base movement 14" you can deepstrike or just move across the board. With fly and ethereal, I figured they could charge just about anything turn 1. Meanwhile the flying Hexwraiths could also drop some mortal wounds on whatever unit they fly over if you don't deepstrike. I believe that ability could target individual characters.

Then if you roll a 9+, amazing! But that's unlikely. 

So I think the combo has some potential and Hexwraiths aren't awful, but I'm not sure it justifies the cost it would be. It would also likely take a practiced hand to be effective. 

[ronin_cse]

Not actually game play related but Nighthaunt related at least: what cases are you all using for your armies? Anyone try the GW cases with these guys without breaking all the little bits? Obviously custom foam is always an option but it gets pricey

[spoon_fed05]

I use a two tiered cup cake carrier. I’ve stuck a ferrous sheet on the base and magnetised the bases of my models. Works for anything hexwraith height and below.

[ianob]

1 hour ago, ronin_cse said:

Not actually game play related but Nighthaunt related at least: what cases are you all using for your armies? Anyone try the GW cases with these guys without breaking all the little bits? Obviously custom foam is always an option but it gets pricey

 

Battlefoam Magnarack 720. Keeps the Grimghasts from forming some sort of scythe-based Voltron.

If only it stopped them doing it during your movement and pileins

 

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

Good to hear. Hexwraiths seem expensive for what they do - I thought they were pretty serviceable though.

Now I wouldn't want to take more than one unit of 10, which is a strike against Deathriders to me. 

However, if you run it you get +1 to charge. If you get Cogs off, that's +3 to any charge. With base movement 14" you can deepstrike or just move across the board. With fly and ethereal, I figured they could charge just about anything turn 1. Meanwhile the flying Hexwraiths could also drop some mortal wounds on whatever unit they fly over if you don't deepstrike. I believe that ability could target individual characters.

Then if you roll a 9+, amazing! But that's unlikely. 

So I think the combo has some potential and Hexwraiths aren't awful, but I'm not sure it justifies the cost it would be. It would also likely take a practiced hand to be effective. 

The question you have to ask yourself, is "is getting these units into combat easily actually worth it if they dont do enough whilst they're there?" and unfortunately the answer is no. Hexwraiths are just overcosted for what they do.

If this was your army's only way of getting a T1 charge I'd be right there with you. But it isn't, your whole army can deepstrike and charge on a 7 with cogs, so deepstrike some better units instead!

Edited August 2, 2018 by ianob

[Shinzra]

Afternoon all, looking at making a competitive Nighthaunt list, I have come up with the following which I think looked quite good, but wanted some feedback on how it could be improved or just general thoughts.

Appreciate any feedback

+++ Nighthaunt Competitive  (Age of Sigmar) [1980pts] +++

++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Death: Legions of Nagash and Nighthaunt) ++

+ Leader +

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern: Chill Blade

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief

Spirit Torment

+ Battleline +

Chainrasp Horde: 40 Chainrasps

Grimghast Reapers: 20 Grimghast Reapers

Grimghast Reapers: 20 Grimghast Reapers

Spirit Hosts: 9 Spirit Hosts (Maybe split into units of 3?)

+ Behemoth +

Black Coach

+ Allegiance +

Alliegiance: Allegiance: Nighthaunt

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost
 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Shinzra