AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Thamalys]

29 minutes ago, Sception said:

here's hoping 3e makes some more significant changes to how shooting in general works.

Hear, hear

[EnixLHQ]

11 hours ago, Radikus said:

Have a few friends taking the dive into AoS so figured i'd join them. Been playing 40k for years so I know how rough it can be to play an outdated/underpowered army. So, with that being said, give it to me straight, how bad are Nighthaunt? I really really wanna play the spooky crew but I have not heard good things. My friends will eventually level up to local tourneys with maybe a large one once or twice a year and don't wanna get stuck with a very subpar faction as I did in 40k years past. Are we viable, at all?

@Inquisitorsz Summed it up pretty well. The only things I'll add are that, right now, we are very much an objective-hunting army. We have superior mobility compared to other armies, and can usually claim objectives early. Holding them, or taking them from the opponent, can be a challenge, though, so you will want some tactical planning in your pocket.

I suggest looking at my NH guide. I will be updating it with the new Broken Realms update as soon as I have some time digesting the book when it's in my hands, but is up-to-date beyond that.

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

All right, I’m jumping in and buying a Black Coach today after liking it on TTS and wanting to run Death Riders now. 
 

I have a tournament a week from Saturday, so what tips do you all have on building and painting it? I’m not a good painter by any means, so I’ll just be doing a tabletop job. Also, and recommendations on basing it? My army had cotton on the bases to look like fog... but I’m planning on switching to a spooky fall themed basing pattern. 

DON'T BUILD IT! You will hate yourself trying to paint this thing after it's built. I built the horses, carriage wheels, and carriage as separate and left everything else loose so I could paint around the edges.

You can still base it the same way. The model sort of rises off of the base like it's flying away, so it will be really easy to keep the ethereal flying theme.

You can see mine about 2/3 down the page here. My build process is here. 

[BaylorCorvette]

so until GW says otherwise the Dolorous Guard battalion is still a thing, right?

[Btimmy]

36 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

so until GW says otherwise the Dolorous Guard battalion is still a thing, right?

Correct! And while I hope the battalions whose rules have been baked into these two subfactions still stick around, especially DG, it does seem unlikely. The loss of DG as a flexible battalion is going to be a big blow. 

[BaylorCorvette]

8 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

Correct! And while I hope the battalions whose rules have been baked into these two subfactions still stick around, especially DG, it does seem unlikely. The loss of DG as a flexible battalion is going to be a big blow. 

Agreed, that is a REAL shame of losing that battalion. I certainly hope it sticks around but I am betting Generals Handbook 2021 will eliminate it, or possibly an FAQ.

[EnixLHQ]

 

[Tiberius501]

13 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

Dude, how did you get that sweet teal color? I love it!

Thanks! I did glazed layers of Kabalite, Sybarite and Gauss Blaster Green in a gradient. Even though I did very watered down layers and went back and forth a bit to make it smooth (enough) it didn’t take very long. 

[Neck-Romantic]

I have a half-finished Kurdoss based on the Idoleth Eidolon model, and was building up spare parts from the Mortis Engine, random sorcerors and extra hexwraith horses/harrow horses to do a mounted group conversion for the Black Coach... just waiting for a new book to re-inspire myself

[Noma]

I think between the two new subfactions I'm leaning more toward Reikenor's Condemned from a competitive standpoint, with some back up battalion support I think we could see some effective play from Nighthaunt now. 

List: 

Allegiance/Subfaction: Reikenor’s Condemned

Leaders:

Reikenor the Grimhailer (160)

-Acolyte of the Grimhailer: Allegiance Ability -General

-Lore of the Underworlds: Reaping Scythe

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)

-General

-Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage

Guardian of Souls (130)

-Artefact: Corpse Candle

-Lore of the Underworld: Shademist

Spirit Torment (120)

Krulghast Cruciator (120)

-Artefact: Midnight Tome – Spectral Tether OR Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline:

40x Chainrasp Horde (280)

10x Hexwraiths (260)

5x   Hexwraiths (130)

Units:

10x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

2x   Chainghasts (70)

Behemoths:

Black Coach (220)

Battalions:

Dolorous Guard (120)

1990/2000

126 Wounds

This is a list I would consider taking under this allegiance, good amount of boost to magic with Reikenor's corpse candle, especially effective on the Guardian of souls for a potential +3 to cast on Spectral lure when you really need to get it off potentially bringing back 2D6 worth of Chainrasp horde in nutty. This list is focusing on survival with additional healing coming from Olynder, Black coach, and spirit torment. Dolorous guard allows you to protect both your generals by passing off wounds to your Hexwraiths on a 2+ as well making those shooty armies have to work hard to take down your key pieces. Another potential strength of this list is having two generals which can directly effect some objective based scenarios as well. 

[Btimmy]

14 minutes ago, Noma said:

I think between the two new subfactions I'm leaning more toward Reikenor's Condemned from a competitive standpoint, with some back up battalion support I think we could see some effective play from Nighthaunt now. 

List: 

Allegiance/Subfaction: Reikenor’s Condemned

Leaders:

Reikenor the Grimhailer (160)

-Acolyte of the Grimhailer: Allegiance Ability -General

-Lore of the Underworlds: Reaping Scythe

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200)

-General

-Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage

Guardian of Souls (130)

-Artefact: Corpse Candle

-Lore of the Underworld: Shademist

Spirit Torment (120)

Krulghast Cruciator (120)

-Artefact: Midnight Tome – Spectral Tether OR Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline:

40x Chainrasp Horde (280)

10x Hexwraiths (260)

5x   Hexwraiths (130)

Units:

10x Bladegheist Revenants (180)

2x   Chainghasts (70)

Behemoths:

Black Coach (220)

Battalions:

Dolorous Guard (120)

1990/2000

126 Wounds

This is a list I would consider taking under this allegiance, good amount of boost to magic with Reikenor's corpse candle, especially effective on the Guardian of souls for a potential +3 to cast on Spectral lure when you really need to get it off potentially bringing back 2D6 worth of Chainrasp horde in nutty. This list is focusing on survival with additional healing coming from Olynder, Black coach, and spirit torment. Dolorous guard allows you to protect both your generals by passing off wounds to your Hexwraiths on a 2+ as well making those shooty armies have to work hard to take down your key pieces. Another potential strength of this list is having two generals which can directly effect some objective based scenarios as well. 

New hero is a waste of points IMO and has no place in a competitive list. The 5+ only applies to normal, not mortal wounds, he isn't a caster, and you need to be within 12inches to even use the buff. For only a few more points you can get a vampire lord on foot, or even another spirit torment would be better. 

[Noma]

9 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

New hero is a waste of points IMO and has no place in a competitive list. The 5+ only applies to normal, not mortal wounds, he isn't a caster, and you need to be within 12inches to even use the buff. For only a few more points you can get a vampire lord on foot, or even another spirit torment would be better. 

I wasn't aware that the 5+ didn't include mortal wounds, that is a shame. While I do appreciate your insight, I'd still like to test this hero out on the table without completely dismissing him just yet. 

[lare2]

31 minutes ago, Noma said:

Dolorous Guard (120)

 

14 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

vampire lord on foot

Obviously it's sheer speculation but I'd bet a Mars bar that both of these will be disappearing for us. Wouldn't plan any future armies around them. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by lare2

[lare2]

15 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

The 5+ only applies to normal, not mortal wounds,

I also fully expect this to be faqed to include mortal as I'm fairly certain that's RAI.

[EnixLHQ]

38 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

New hero is a waste of points IMO and has no place in a competitive list. The 5+ only applies to normal, not mortal wounds, he isn't a caster, and you need to be within 12inches to even use the buff. For only a few more points you can get a vampire lord on foot, or even another spirit torment would be better. 

I assume you mean the wound he deals with Phantasmal Torture? Yeah, it's standard, not mortal, but comes at rend -2. At +3/+3 any buffs to help that will almost ensure it, such as a Spirit Torment allowing RR1s and/or a GoS's +1 to Wound.

24 minutes ago, Noma said:

I wasn't aware that the 5+ didn't include mortal wounds, that is a shame.

What?

22 minutes ago, lare2 said:

I also fully expect this to be faqed to include mortal as I'm fairly certain that's RAI.

Where you guys getting this?

The rule, straight from a freshly downloaded KC from Games Workshop reads:

Quote

Empowering Excruciation:
If any wounds inflicted by this model’s Phantasmal Torture are allocated to an enemy model and not negated, this model becomes empowered until your next shooting phase. The Deathless Spirits battle trait negates wounds allocated to friendly Nighthaunt units wholly within 12" of any friendly empowered Krulghast Cruciators on a 5+ instead of 6+.

Deathless Spirits is:

Quote

Deathless Spirits:
Roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to a friendly NIGHTHAUNT model from a unit wholly within 12" of your general or a friendly NIGHTHAUNT HERO. On a 6+, that wound or mortal wound is negated.

Since KC's ability directly references Deathless Spirits, and is not replacing it, it simply lowers the threshold of a successful negation from a 6+ to 5+.

[Yeknomious]

2 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

38 minutes ago, Noma said:

I wasn't aware that the 5+ didn't include mortal wounds, that is a shame.

What?

This made me laugh hard.

[Btimmy]

8 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

I assume you mean the wound he deals with Phantasmal Torture? Yeah, it's standard, not mortal, but comes at rend -2. At +3/+3 any buffs to help that will almost ensure it, such as a Spirit Torment allowing RR1s and/or a GoS's +1 to Wound.

What?

Where you guys getting this?

The rule, straight from a freshly downloaded KC from Games Workshop reads:

Deathless Spirits is:

Since KC's ability directly references Deathless Spirits, and is not replacing it, it simply lowers the threshold of a successful negation from a 6+ to 5+.

Wounds are not mortal wounds. As written, the new heros ability modifies deathless spirits ability to negate WOUNDS, not MORTAL WOUNDS. They must be explicitly called out as mortals in order for them to receive the 5+. For this same reason the God bone armor for petrifix elite subfaction of OBR also only applies to normal wounds, not mortal wounds. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Btimmy

[Btimmy]

45 minutes ago, lare2 said:

I also fully expect this to be faqed to include mortal as I'm fairly certain that's RAI.

You might think this, but as I referenced above, OBR has an artifact that works this way and it has been left as is for over a year now. 

[lare2]

7 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

As written, the new heros ability modifies deathless spirits ability to negate WOUNDS, not MORTAL WOUNDS.

Aye, I've seen this argument but I just don't buy that's what they intended. 

[EnixLHQ]

1 minute ago, Btimmy said:

Wounds are not mortal wounds. As written, the new heros ability modifies deathless spirits ability to negate WOUNDS, not MORTAL WOUNDS. They must be explicitly called out as mortals in order for them to receive the 5+. 

I don't think that's the case. Otherwise they'd rename the ability. There's precedence for this in Shroudguard:

Quote

Frenzied Fervour:
Roll a dice each time you allocate a wound or mortal wound to a BLADEGHEIST REVENANT model from a unit in this battalion
wholly within 12" of a KNIGHT OF SHROUDS or REIKENOR THE GRIMHAILER from the same battalion. On a 5+, that wound or
mortal wound is negated. If you use this ability, you cannot also use the Deathless Spirits battle trait to try to negate the same wound or mortal wound.

Frenzied Fervour replaces Deathless Spirits, and so they have to spell it out and indicate all aspects of it. This is key to understand, because the KoS or Reikenor that's leading a Shroudguard doesn't benefit from Frenzied, he only gets Deathless. He doesn't lose Deathless just because the rule Frenzied doesn't say he keeps it.

Deathless is Deathless. Deathless includes mortal wounds. If this ability doesn't include mortal wounds it's not Deathless, and would have it's own name.

[lare2]

1 minute ago, EnixLHQ said:

Deathless is Deathless. Deathless includes mortal wounds. If this ability doesn't include mortal wounds it's not Deathless, and would have it's own name.

Couldn't agree more but I can definitely see people arguing otherwise and, unfortunately, as a consequence, it needs a faq to clear it up. 

[Btimmy]

4 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

I don't think that's the case. Otherwise they'd rename the ability. There's precedence for this in Shroudguard:

Frenzied Fervour replaces Deathless Spirits, and so they have to spell it out and indicate all aspects of it. This is key to understand, because the KoS or Reikenor that's leading a Shroudguard doesn't benefit from Frenzied, he only gets Deathless. He doesn't lose Deathless just because the rule Frenzied doesn't say he keeps it.

Deathless is Deathless. Deathless includes mortal wounds. If this ability doesn't include mortal wounds it's not Deathless, and would have it's own name.

In what you quoted they explicitly said WOUNDS or MORTAL WOUNDS. "On a 5+ the WOUND or MORTAL WOUND is negated." This is not the case with the new hero. You can argue otherwise but by RAW and in all tournament settings that is the way it will be and is interpreted and enforced because that is the correct way. Just an FYI. 

[EnixLHQ]

12 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

For this same reason the God bone armor for petrifix elite subfaction of OBR also only applies to normal wounds, not mortal wounds. 

This isn't even the same argument... Godbone Armor is it's own thing. It doesn't overwrite or alter any standing rule for OBR. Godbone and Deathless Warriors can both exist together.

Quote

Godbone Armour:
The first wound allocated to the bearer in each phase is negated.

This is the base ability, as written in the battletome. Nothing about it suggests that it should also negate mortals. It's a flat -1 normal wound per phase the unit takes damage. No roll, no special requirements. Flat damage reduction.

All the other places you could review this artefact, like Goonhammer, SpikeyBits, BellofLostSouls, etc. all reviewed it and weighed in on it being just a wound-negator, and that it's pretty damn powerful as it is.

It's never been FAQed to include mortals, or otherwise rewritten to say anything different, because it does exactly what it is intended to do.

The hero that has it follows the following sting of events: Hero is allocated a normal wound. Hero's Godbone negates it. Hero is allocated another normal wound. Deathless Warriors has a chance to negate it on a 6+. Next phase, hero is allocated a mortal wound. Deathless Warriors has a chance to negate it on a 6+.

[Liquidsteel]

I can't remember the names, but the DoK 6+ FNP that goes to a 5+ from Hagg Narr only works on regular wounds.  Mortals only get the 6+

 

And I believe it was addressed in the FAQ to confirm that.

 

Edit - yep it's Devoted Disciples and Fanatical Faith. Improves the 6+ FNP to a 5+ but only for regular wounds and FAQd to confirm.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Liquidsteel

[Btimmy]

9 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

This isn't even the same argument... Godbone Armor is it's own thing. It doesn't overwrite or alter any standing rule for OBR. Godbone and Deathless Warriors can both exist together.

This is the base ability, as written in the battletome. Nothing about it suggests that it should also negate mortals. It's a flat -1 normal wound per phase the unit takes damage. No roll, no special requirements. Flat damage reduction.

All the other places you could review this artefact, like Goonhammer, SpikeyBits, BellofLostSouls, etc. all reviewed it and weighed in on it being just a wound-negator, and that it's pretty damn powerful as it is.

It's never been FAQed to include mortals, or otherwise rewritten to say anything different, because it does exactly what it is intended to do.

The hero that has it follows the following sting of events: Hero is allocated a normal wound. Hero's Godbone negates it. Hero is allocated another normal wound. Deathless Warriors has a chance to negate it on a 6+. Next phase, hero is allocated a mortal wound. Deathless Warriors has a chance to negate it on a 6+.

God bone is an example that if it isn't explicitly called out as a mortal wound, it doesn't negate mortal wounds. The ability modifies deathless spirit to a 5+ on WOUNDS, if it did both it would say WOUND or MORTAL WOUND. Again you can argue all you like, but unfortunately you are incorrect on this front. Hopefully it gets changed, but as it stands the new hero only buffs deathless to a 5+ for normal wounds. The talk of modifying an existing ability is red herring, there is no established rule that changes the way things are interpreted just because they interact or modify an existing rule. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Btimmy

[EnixLHQ]

7 hours ago, Btimmy said:

In what you quoted they explicitly said WOUNDS or MORTAL WOUNDS. "On a 5+ the WOUND or MORTAL WOUND is negated." This is not the case with the new hero. You can argue otherwise but by RAW and in all tournament settings that is the way it will be and is interpreted and enforced because that is the correct way. Just an FYI. 

Tournaments are exactly why rules, even if slightly different than the base rule, have different names. You can't expect every player, and every organizer, to memorize every slightly nuance of a handful of rules that all bear the same name. And you can't grind every game you play to a halt to consult a judge every time you take damage.

By naming it Deathless Spirits it's shorthanding it to the standing rule of Deathless Spirits. A judge will certainly rule that the KC is only lowering the threshold and not removing mortals from the equation. Otherwise, again, it'd be called something else. Everliving Ghasts, or something.

6 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

I can't remember the names, but the DoK 6+ FNP that goes to a 5+ from Hagg Narr only works on regular wounds.  Mortals only get the 6+

 

And I believe it was addressed in the FAQ to confirm that.

 

Quote

Q: Does the Hagg Nar command trait ‘Devoted Disciple’ negate mortal wounds allocated to a friendly Hagg Nar Daughters of Khaine model on a 5+?

A: No.

Quote

Devoted Disciple:
The Fanatical Faith battle trait (pg 61) negates a wound allocated to a friendly HAGG NAR DAUGHTERS OF KHAINE model on a 5+ instead of a 6 while it is wholly within 12" of this general.

Quote

Fanatical Faith:
Roll a dice each time a wound or mortal wound is allocated to a friendly DAUGHTERS OF KHAINE model. On a 6, that wound or mortal wound is negated.

What's happening here is that Fanatical Faith was supported by Devoted Disciple. It's a new ability, Any unit that has Devoted Desciple also has Fanatical Faith. Different name, different ability. The tradeoff here is that one always-on ability is being replaced with another always-on ability.

The Krulghast Cruciator is not replacing anything. Deathless Spirits isn't being replaced by Deathless (but not quite) Spirits. It's still Deathless Spirits.

Edited April 22, 2021 by EnixLHQ
Corrections