AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[EnixLHQ]

56 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Sadly, as a player who loves Spirit Hosts, this would make the army even worse for me. I still think SH are overpriced at 120, considering a unit of 3 is rarely gonna control an objective. Not being able to get them back naturally would make them next to worthless. Our reanimation should just be more like LoN. Command point for a unit maybe, but each hero should be reanimating 1-5 models naturally. Like a bunch of black coaches.

Nah, not if we still had access to Ruler of the Spirit Host. Or the Black Coach, or Olynder's command ability.

Deathly Invocation is prevalent in LoN armies with tons of multiple-unit model return sources. You have gravesites. You can overlap these and supplement them with spells and endless spells. Why couldn't Nighthaunt get this fancy kind of in-the-thick-of-battle model return (which really fits our aesthetic, I think) in addition to what we already have?

I think I might ask my group if I could try it out.

[Planar]

On 9/27/2020 at 3:31 AM, Tropical Ghost General said:

So 3 games against lizards. Twice was coalesced, once starborn. All 3 games were over by turn 2. I rolled well below average throughout all 3 games as well 😂. The joys of power creep 😂. 

I played with a fluff NH list (Olynder, Black Coach, Forgotten Scoions).against a Kroak + 3  bastiladon list in a local tournament. End of round 2 I had two models on the table:  Olynder+  one chainrasp. I had seen this coming so I played very aggresively, teleporting for table control and pinning him in his deployment zone to score objectives as fast as possible. By the end of round 2 I was seriously leading on points despite being double turned.

We had time for only one more round. If I won the initiative I would score too many points fo him to catch up in his turn. If I lost the roll, he would wipe me from the table and catch up.

I lost the initiative roll and the game. But gave the ugly toad a good scare

We can do it!  But we need a lot of luck. If I had pulled through a single wave of terror with my Bladegeists or simply one bloody initiative roll I could have beaten one of the hardest lists currently out there  with a fluffy NH list.

So, do not dispar...

Well now that I am thinking about it... do dispair. We are NH after all   

Edited October 14, 2020 by Planar
typos

[SleeperAgent]

3 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Nah, not if we still had access to Ruler of the Spirit Host. Or the Black Coach, or Olynder's command ability.

Deathly Invocation is prevalent in LoN armies with tons of multiple-unit model return sources. You have gravesites. You can overlap these and supplement them with spells and endless spells. Why couldn't Nighthaunt get this fancy kind of in-the-thick-of-battle model return (which really fits our aesthetic, I think) in addition to what we already have?

I think I might ask my group if I could try it out.

Ruler of the Spirit Hosts shouldn't be a command trait, it should just be something our heroes do. We're ghosts for crying out loud. We should be coming back better than skeletons and cannibals.

[Neck-Romantic]

Remember I was theorizing a Reanimation Protocols ability in addition to our somewhat anemic regeneration abilities. 

Just ghosts slowly repleneshing regardless of if theyde been healed or not 

[Landohammer]

On 10/14/2020 at 3:20 AM, Planar said:

I played with a fluff NH list (Olynder, Black Coach, Forgotten Scoions).against a Kroak + 3  bastiladon list in a local tournament. End of round 2 I had two models on the table:  Olynder+  one chainrasp. I had seen this coming so I played very aggresively, teleporting for table control and pinning him in his deployment zone to score objectives as fast as possible. By the end of round 2 I was seriously leading on points despite being double turned.

We had time for only one more round. If I won the initiative I would score too many points fo him to catch up in his turn. If I lost the roll, he would wipe me from the table and catch up.

I lost the initiative roll and the game. But gave the ugly toad a good scare

We can do it!  But we need a lot of luck. If I had pulled through a single wave of terror with my Bladegeists or simply one bloody initiative roll I could have beaten one of the hardest lists currently out there  with a fluffy NH list.

So, do not dispar...

Well now that I am thinking about it... do dispair. We are NH after all   

Cool game. I wish they would do something about Lord Kroak. Seraphon is already a strong book  but Kroak just pushes it over the edge into insanity. 

I played a game against Seraphon recently and somehow managed to pull a win. (he was a newer player though). It was the the 7+ behemoth list with a bunch of stegadons and bastilladons. The battleplan ended up being a huge factor. The deployments were super far apart (forcing the hand maybe?). His stegadons were quite scary in combat, but they just weren't fast enough to get across the table, so I was able to pick and choose my fights (and objectives!) one at a time.

He was also scared of my deepstrikers dropping behind his line (a valid fear) but he held a bit too much back and it ended up costing him later. A carnosaur shouldn't be doing guard duty lol. 

Final score was like 34-16. I think Olynder will be in every list going forward. She is a steal for her points. 

 

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, Landohammer said:

He was also scared of my deepstrikers dropping behind his line (a valid fear) but he held a bit too much back and it ended up costing him later. A carnosaur shouldn't be doing guard duty lol. 

I always love hearing this. This is the reason we put units into Underworlds. Even if WE have no idea what we're going to do with them, our opponent is always going to be worried about what's there.

[Landohammer]

Yea exactly. I often find myself holding a unit of 5 hexwraiths in reserve until the last possible second. They don't really present a significant threat, but just the psychology of getting charged in the rear lines forces people to become overly conservative. 

I guess a unit of 10 chainrasps could accomplish the same goal for cheaper, but 5 dolorous guard hexwraiths are actually strong enough to do something lol.  

The Dreadblade Harrow often has a similar psychological affect but I don't teleport him as much as I thought I would. He is often needed for deathless minion saves and charge rerolls, and I generally lack the CP to spectral summon. 

[Planar]

I have this feeling that NH can go from bottom to top tier with very subtle changes, namely:

1. A more reliable charge while deepstriking  (some mechanism providing a bonus to charge)

2. A more reliable model ressurrection ability

3. A  mechanism for a  slightly more probable Wave of terror 

4. A couple of spells / artifacts that actually worth our time (this can go back to pints 1-3)

All these are in line with the army theme and not so difficult to improve. But in general it seems to me that NH are a very difficult army to balance. They can go from "too weak" to "too powerful" very easily ...

[Ranzou]

All we need is little protection to our heroes.

Our main problem is hero plinking, from magic or shooting. Thats all. 

[Planar]

1 hour ago, Ranzou said:

All we need is little protection to our heroes.

Our main problem is hero plinking, from magic or shooting. Thats all. 

if that was true we would face problems only from shooting/ magic heavy armies which is not the case. 

[lare2]

1 hour ago, Planar said:

if that was true we would face problems only from shooting/ magic heavy armies which is not the case. 

Aye, I just get smashed by everything really. 

[EnixLHQ]

10 hours ago, lare2 said:

Aye, I just get smashed by everything really. 

That we do.

We have to be super aggressive and fight on our terms, which usually just means right away and with lots of wounds/mortal wounds before they can counter.

15 hours ago, Planar said:

I have this feeling that NH can go from bottom to top tier with very subtle changes

I think, in terms of balance, we're just short of coming up net level. I say this because our winrate during the last tournament season was around 45%, which isn't bad but against armies that average closer to 50% we clearly come up short. Our legendary battalions don't figure into this, so we don't know if, say, Dolorous Guard would have changed this.

I hope that we don't get minor shifts or buffs in the mythical yet unconfirmed new tome. I want a total rewrite at this point. Too many of our abilities don't fit with what we're supposed to do as an army --which is to show up suddenly, swarm the board with lightning fast attacks, and disappearing before the enemy can gather their wits and strike back-- so we end up trying to strike a balance between going fast, Wave of Terror, and horde attrition tactics which don't work well together.

For current games, though, my friends loved the idea of giving my heroes gaining the Necron's Reanimation Protocol as an aura with the same size as their Deathless Minions save. We'll get around to playing that way soon, but everyone agreed (like, instantly) that it makes sense thematically and would give Nighthaunt a valid chance against current armies.

[Malakithe]

11 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

For current games, though, my friends loved the idea of giving my heroes gaining the Necron's Reanimation Protocol as an aura with the same size as their Deathless Minions save. We'll get around to playing that way soon, but everyone agreed (like, instantly) that it makes sense thematically and would give Nighthaunt a valid chance against current armies.

As cool as that is I think that will just put an even greater target on the backs of heroes. Cant really use that ability when your heroes are dead turn 1.

[EnixLHQ]

6 hours ago, Malakithe said:

As cool as that is I think that will just put an even greater target on the backs of heroes. Cant really use that ability when your heroes are dead turn 1.

Unless you are one of these armies, what you said will be a true statement.

Metawatch Warhammer Age of Sigmar – 1: List-building with Dan Street

But, yeah, in most cases as soon as we don't tie up a ranged unit if they can target a hero, that hero is gone.

Edited October 22, 2020 by EnixLHQ

[Tikhunt]

Hey guys, I normally play FEC but recently started to expand into Nighthaunt and was wondering if there were any general rules of thumb to follow with list building and spell/artefact selection?

Ive read through some of this topic but there's a lot at this point and with the current state of the game being very different I thought I'd check if you guys have any pointers for someone new to the faction but not to the game? 

[EnixLHQ]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:51 AM, Tikhunt said:

Hey guys, I normally play FEC but recently started to expand into Nighthaunt and was wondering if there were any general rules of thumb to follow with list building and spell/artefact selection?

Ive read through some of this topic but there's a lot at this point and with the current state of the game being very different I thought I'd check if you guys have any pointers for someone new to the faction but not to the game? 

FEC and NH are pretty similar if you want to go for swarming tactics. No giant flesh-and-teethy wrecking ball you can single-handedly eat the board with, though.

I'd think of it in terms like NH is a middle ground between horde and elite units, who have to rely on their heroes to shine and shouldn't stick around in a fight unless you're winning it.

[dmorley21]

On 10/22/2020 at 11:37 AM, EnixLHQ said:

Unless you are one of these armies, what you said will be a true statement.

Metawatch Warhammer Age of Sigmar – 1: List-building with Dan Street

But, yeah, in most cases as soon as we don't tie up a ranged unit if they can target a hero, that hero is gone.

I'd take that with a grain of salt due to sample size right now, but the bottom line is Nighthaunt aren't going to be a tournament favorite no matter the list and who is playing them. 

As for wish listing, I think it's pretty clear that no faction will be getting a new book until after the Broken Realms books come out - even though Nighthaunt clearly needs a fairly comprehensive rewrite that grows on some of the ideas in the book. I'll be curious to see just what is in the first book to better understand what type of updates a faction could be getting. 

Nighthaunt already have a ton of battalions, so I wouldn't bet on more of those. Maybe enclaves of a sort? 

[mojojojo101]

7 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I'd take that with a grain of salt due to sample size right now, but the bottom line is Nighthaunt aren't going to be a tournament favorite no matter the list and who is playing them. 

As for wish listing, I think it's pretty clear that no faction will be getting a new book until after the Broken Realms books come out - even though Nighthaunt clearly needs a fairly comprehensive rewrite that grows on some of the ideas in the book. I'll be curious to see just what is in the first book to better understand what type of updates a faction could be getting. 

Nighthaunt already have a ton of battalions, so I wouldn't bet on more of those. Maybe enclaves of a sort? 

Enclaves/sub-factions would be an awesome way to emphasise the different ways of playing Nighthaunt for me. Maybe one for Chainrasp tarpits, one for movement shenangigans, one has a sort of tidal wave of death and then maybe a bravery debuff one.

[The_Dudemeister]

On 10/22/2020 at 12:04 AM, EnixLHQ said:

For current games, though, my friends loved the idea of giving my heroes gaining the Necron's Reanimation Protocol as an aura with the same size as their Deathless Minions save. We'll get around to playing that way soon, but everyone agreed (like, instantly) that it makes sense thematically and would give Nighthaunt a valid chance against current armies.

Hmm, maybe with more than a few tweaks... but I kinda don't really see that working out in AoS. A little context for those who don't know how it works:

After a unit finishes their attacks against Necrons, you immediately roll a number of dice equal the wounds lost by that attack. So if 10 Bladegheist or 5 Hexwraiths were killed, you roll 10d6. On a 5+ you get that wound/model back. Let's say you rolled 3x 5+, then you'd get 3 Bladegheist or 1 Hexwraiths back.

First problem should be immediately apparent. It's worse for Hexwraiths and attrocious for Spirit Hosts. You lose 1 Spirit Host, then you roll 3d6 and need all three 5+s to get one back.

 

A much bigger problem gameplay-wise is how it works after every unit finishes their attack. In 40k that works fine because someone who wants to kill your Necron Warriors shoots with 4-15 units at it (if they really mean business). Unit sizes are way smaller and you have several times the number of units. So it works as intended bouncing your Warrior blob from 20 down to 8, up to 12 after the first volley. Then from 12 down to 2, up to 6 after the second volley. And so on.

 

In AoS we mainly have the fight phase and there usually only are engaged with 1 or 2 units. So with an ability like Reanimation Protocols it would mean that you either wipe the unit in one go or never kill them at all... ever. If you thought Petrifex Elite were unhealthy for the game, this would be several magnitudes worse in AoS. Death Gravesites can at least directly be countered by clogging up the areas and it uses up CP as a very scarce ressource that you might need for bravery in the first place.

[The_Dudemeister]

On 10/22/2020 at 12:04 AM, EnixLHQ said:

We have to be super aggressive and fight on our terms, which usually just means right away and with lots of wounds/mortal wounds before they can counter.

I'd love to keep our shocktroop theme going that we have in the lore. So instead of a passive reanimation that let's us camp on a backfield objective forever, how about active regeneration?

 

How about we rip the life essence right out of everything we kill? Every damage we deal heals/resurrects us.

 

A full unit of 30 Grimghast Reapers deals a boatload of damage... but then again, they have nothing to heal. Now what if they'd been attacked first and are now only 10 spooks strong? On the counter attack they deal a few wounds and heal that amount. 10 Spooks deal 4 damage to an elite unit with a 4+ save, so they'd be at 14 again before the battleshock phase.

Or if they're engaged against their favorite opponent, a horde unit with a 5+save, they'd deal 8 damage. So back to 18 out of 30 spooks we go. At this rate an opponent better reinforces their horde unit against our main horde-blender! Striking us first doesn't cut it at all anymore.

3 Spirit Hosts more or less reliably deal 3 mortal wounds and one damage to most targets. So a medium-sized SH blob has a good chance to get one back every combat phase if they weren't wiped even after getting damaged.

 

It's noteworthy that this mechanic doesn't allow for wiped units to come back so we'd be still very distinct from regular DEATH. We do what we do in the lore... fight very aggressively in a sheer endless horde. Backfield objective campers have no life essence to stea... repossess. So they don't get any better healing than we already have right now. We have to be aggressive by nature.

 

All that doesn't help against shooting at all. But this needs an overhaul anyway. Give us a -1 to hit (that stacks with Look Out, Sir) and wound or something. I mean... shooting ghosts. Say that out loud. Shooting... ghosts. Come on, Geedubs!

Edited October 26, 2020 by The_Dudemeister

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

 First problem should be immediately apparent. It's worse for Hexwraiths and attrocious for Spirit Hosts. You lose 1 Spirit Host, then you roll 3d6 and need all three 5+s to get one back.

I don't disagree with you, per se, but I want to point out that this is true for all of our existing healing abilities except for RotSH, Nimbus, and No Rest for the Wicked. We already suck at bringing back Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts without major commitment.

Reanimation Protocol is too powerful as it is, but up the die roll to a 6 and it might not be. 4+ save, 6+ shrug, 6+ return?

You're right when pairing this against other midline armies, this would be unfun overkill (maybe not at the 6+?). But against a strong shooting army I'm not so sure. It may be one unit firing at you, but that one unit has 2 to 3 attacks often at 2+/2+ coming at you. And usually it's two units of that. 40+ attacks, x2, where 70% of the damage gets through.

[SleeperAgent]

So lets theorize about our future here. I don't foresee warscroll rewrites until we get a new tome. But I can see Nighthaunt get "households" in one of these Broken Realms books. And I would love to see at least two of them allow different things to be battleline.

Possibly:

Dreadscythe Harridans in one that also gives more ways to lower bravery.

Bladegheist Revenants in one that increases movement speed or charge bonuses.

And this might be crazy, but Glaivewraith Stalkers in one. They currently have no real role in the army. They are outclassed by every other unit and are really only there if you have 60 points left over.

 

Aside from that, in the December big faq I see Spirit Hosts going down to 100. When you look at where the game is now vs when NH were released, there are so many things that deal mortal wound son 6's. HGB do 2 and continue with the attack, LRL bowmen do them at 36-42" range and can potentially do them on 5's. That couple with the unit size of 3 they almost never contest objectives.

I also see Hexwraiths going down another 10. Reikenor can go down 10-20. Mourngul goes down to 240-250.

[EnixLHQ]

49 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Aside from that, in the December big faq I see Spirit Hosts going down to 100. When you look at where the game is now vs when NH were released, there are so many things that deal mortal wound son 6's.

I would love our lore to influence our abilities more. In this case, army-wide Frightful Touch makes sense, and leaving it on a 6 and stopping the attack sequence would be a fair tradeoff for the entire army being able to do it. Suddenly the NH meta becomes numbers of attacks, so our horde units would have more relevance and heroes like KoSoES become much more important.

But I don't see Spirit Hosts being reduced much if at all. All you have to do is pair a unit of these at 6 or higher with a re-roll 1's mechanic, like a Spirit Torment or a All-Out Attack CA, and they will do surprising unmitigated damage.

In fact, I just participated in a friend's startup YouTube channel where we played a quick test game of 1k, and I brought all mortal wound generators. I erased his offensive line and ended up winning the game. It wasn't a meta match up, but it does show how some interactions with Nighthaunt are continuously overlooked, but very strong nonetheless. Once it's ready I'll link it here.

[SleeperAgent]

5 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

I would love our lore to influence our abilities more. In this case, army-wide Frightful Touch makes sense, and leaving it on a 6 and stopping the attack sequence would be a fair tradeoff for the entire army being able to do it. Suddenly the NH meta becomes numbers of attacks, so our horde units would have more relevance and heroes like KoSoES become much more important.

But I don't see Spirit Hosts being reduced much if at all. All you have to do is pair a unit of these at 6 or higher with a re-roll 1's mechanic, like a Spirit Torment or a All-Out Attack CA, and they will do surprising unmitigated damage.

In fact, I just participated in a friend's startup YouTube channel where we played a quick test game of 1k, and I brought all mortal wound generators. I erased his offensive line and ended up winning the game. It wasn't a meta match up, but it does show how some interactions with Nighthaunt are continuously overlooked, but very strong nonetheless. Once it's ready I'll link it here.

The problem with this is our army is getting hard countered from all directions. Shooting was our achille's heel before it even existed and now multiple armies are great at it. Multiple armies are also now coming out with a bunch of mortal wound protection. Lowering points are just a stopgap measure. I want them lowered to see if it can make them competitive against the meta. If it doesn't work then the new book is needed asap.

[Neck-Romantic]

We have bandied the idea of enclave/houses/chapters around a lot as a ways to bandaid NH until we get s comprehensive rewrite.

Armywide FT with existing FT on 5's would be lovely