AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[SleeperAgent]

26 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Ah, see I really like that. Although FP costs would need changing of course.

No one would want another Slaanesh before their 6 month FAQ where you kill all the Keepers just for them to get 1-2 back next turn 😅

It would just come in within 3" of the garrison

I honestly think the only fate point cost that would need to change is pinks. Trading 3 units of pinks for the 30 points of Lord of Change seems fair.

[Tizianolol]

Ah ok nice, neanche the ironclad!!:)

[Ganigumo]

17 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

- Enlightened on foot as Battleline is TS is General, ohh boi, let me roll these D6's to see how many mortal wounds my bank account will suffer if that is the case! Hope there's a resale market for those discs!

 

You can kitbash them with a box of enlightened as a box of tzaangors. I managed to collect quite a few skyfires over time (bought a bunch before the multiple price increases) and I made 9 skyfires and used the spears/other bits with a box of tzaangors to make 9 enlightened on foot.

 

14 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I'm (of course) going to agree\disagree with Skyfires 😉. Yes, I do think they need a reduction.. but I don't think it's fair to compare their shooting to Flamers. They're just more of a "sniping" unit rather than "delete that entire block of 40" unit, and that's okay. For that cost you're getting something that can potentially snipe out 5-wound heroes at a 40" threat range, get +1 attack from the Agenda and clear 4+ save screens of 10-30 (depending on save) in CC.

With an Exalted, 12 Flamers outside of Conflag and not getting Aura of Mutability is 660 points and can put out ~21 damage on average. 6 Skyfires with +1 attack can do ~23 and a better potential to delete that little hero giving Stormfiends RR all hits and wounds and +1 damage. 
 

I agree they have a different role than flamers, but the issue is that flamers outdamage skyfires, even if the flamers have 0 support, aren't taken in eternal conflagration, and are shooting a lone character, and the flamers are 40 points less, and still have a 27" threat range. In my experience their shooting is deceptively weak unless you're sitting on some 6s in your destiny dice pool.

In melee, with rerolls, 3 skyfires will usually put out 3-9 damage (6-13 with the  agenda), 6 will put out 8-17 (14-25 with the agenda). By comparison 6 enlightened with the agenda would put out 13-26, or 29-45 if they get rerolls (which is a bit tougher to activate than the skyfires).

Skyfires are in a weird place in between enlightened and flamers, being worse at shooting than flamers, and worse at combat than enlightened, and costing more than either.

[Gwendar]

10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

I agree they have a different role than flamers, but the issue is that flamers outdamage skyfires, even if the flamers have 0 support, aren't taken in eternal conflagration, and are shooting a lone character, and the flamers are 40 points less, and still have a 27" threat range. In my experience their shooting is deceptively weak unless you're sitting on some 6s in your destiny dice pool.

In melee, with rerolls, 3 skyfires will usually put out 3-9 damage (6-13 with the  agenda), 6 will put out 8-17 (14-25 with the agenda). By comparison 6 enlightened with the agenda would put out 13-26, or 29-45 if they get rerolls (which is a bit tougher to activate than the skyfires).

Skyfires are in a weird place in between enlightened and flamers, being worse at shooting than flamers, and worse at combat than enlightened, and costing more than either.

Right, and like I said I agree they need a reduction. It seems like GW is too afraid to drop them or Kurnoth Hunters with Bows down too much because way back in 1st edition they were both pretty solid and that fear is still engrained in their heads. I'm just saying you're more likely to shoot at that lone character with Skyfires than with Flamers outside of Changehost is all.. is it as strong? Absolutely not; on average 6 Skyfires maths out to around 3-4 damage.. but if I have no other use of a 6 then I'll probably use one on it if it's an important hero I wanna kill.

I'll never disagree Enlightened aren't better by miles.. but again, I'm looking at the potential threat ranges and the fact that Skyfire can hit first. I usually lose 1-2 Enlightened by the time I get to fight with them to get the RR's. If you stack them behind a screen then that works better of course, I've just not been one for that playstyle.. especially in a shooting meta where things aren't charging the screen in front of them and would just shoot them off instead.

I think it just shows that they really seem to be all over the place with decisions. On paper things seem to be okay but if they ran math or really played with things a bit more they just don't make sense, like you said.

[RUNCMD]

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

It seems like GW is too afraid to drop them or Kurnoth Hunters with Bows down too much because way back in 1st edition they were both pretty solid and that fear is still engrained in their heads.

Even after losing the Daemon Key Word, which is the real reason they were scary because peeps would just fold reality them.

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

If you stack them behind a screen then that works better of course,

And most of the time if you're doing this your screen slows them down, if it is a chaff unit. Then you're generally holding them back for 2-3 rounds I find. People still just shoot them off though, and being at a 5 up with no DPR they die pretty quick.

 

[RUNCMD]

15 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

I meant that rather than petty vengeance, killing a pink EITHER splits into a blue, OR the controller generates a fate point.

Sorry I misunderstood, but thanks for the clarification. I think this is a viable option, and it was mentioned later in the posts following this that yeah the summoning points would need a shift. Doubt they would do that in a single FAQ though? Maybe next tome?

[Gwendar]

15 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Even after losing the Daemon Key Word, which is the real reason they were scary because peeps would just fold reality them.

And most of the time if you're doing this your screen slows them down, if it is a chaff unit. Then you're generally holding them back for 2-3 rounds I find. People still just shoot them off though, and being at a 5 up with no DPR they die pretty quick.

 

Right.. it's almost like half the team is stuck in the past and oblivious to what actually changed. Oh well.. I still love them even if others don't 😉

Exactly, you're basically just giving up a large reason of what makes them great. If your intention is to keep them behind a screen, then you may just be better off using foot Enlightened, especially since if they're behind one of our many 32mm based screens, they won't be able to hit with the Discs anyway with that 1" range unless that screen gets 1-shot. You could get them behind Blues\Brims I guess, but again you're sacrificing speed and an opponent could easily just ignore them or shoot\MW them off.

I've never been very impressed with them... Enlightened had a nice spotlight moment in BoC for a few months awhile back doing the above tactic but have since faded out. Their theoretical damage is quite high, but realistically in most cases 1-2 of them at best are going to be killed before you get to swing with your RR's, especially if you're trying to kill an equally punch unit (which they should be, otherwise just use Skyfires\Flamers). In those cases, you may actually lose 3-4 even if you tag the corner of a unit or potentially lose that many models attacking due to bad pile-ins if you couldn't base-to-base the opposing unit. 5-10 HGB can still easily clear a whole unit like nothing and then just fight again later.

[RUNCMD]

Bit of a change of topic but with the current realm rules, our agendas and some of the buffs/de-buffs floating around the current tome, i'm wondering what people's favorite combos are to stack on a single unit at the present?

Some of the one's i'm enjoying at the present are:

- Playing in the realm of Chamon, stacking the +1 save spell from the realm onto a blob of 30 Kairics coming from a Fluxmaster on Disc, (lasts until your next hero phase), Fatemaster in the middle and burn his CP, Kairics declaring the agenda Overthrow leaders (+1 save for the rest of the battle) and have thme hide behind a single unit of Pinks. Give the Aura of Mutability to the Fluxmaster if you can (fave Daemon artefact) and then when the pinks and stuff split, if they previously got their spell off giving them the +1 to hits, when they're at 20 they get the extra +1, plus re-rolling their hits because of fateboi if theyre wholly within and adding +1 to wounds. Tasty as. *This is also a lot of your army to have in one blob and also in one position of the board, but it's worked for me so far.

- I think the Changeling coupled with a Unit of 20 Pinks is just Brutal (noting the previous discussions around Pinks etc) but what I have done previously is had him cast shards of Valagharr onto a unit, basically making them -1 to hit and half their movement, chucked his ability onto the unit crippling them even more in terms of the exact same, Charged that unit of 20 pinks into the unit from 9 inches away after having their spell go off and also completing the Reckless Abandon agenda making the unit of Pinks -3 to hit in melee because Old mate Changeling was still wholly within 12, basically immobile come their turn if they feel they wanted to retreat (reminding them they would still be halving first, then halving again and rounding up), +2 to hit on the hit rolls with an extra attack each which was nice. They def pulled their weight for once! Later after a turn the unit was nearing down to the Blues and brims, so I was spending that CP for the Chamon ability to make them a +1 to hit in combat and the inbuilt chamon spell of +1 to save.

- Think my favorite though (and this was probably more situational really) is having the Guant Summoner on Disc in the Host Arcanum playing Knife to the heart, he was sort of floating around the board for a bit and then Turn 2 I had moved him into position for the summoning, got turn 3, summoned in the Furies and the Screamers from the artefact in the hero phase, ran the screamers onto the objective (20 inch run) and to keep the furies up, charged them into one of his units that were probably about 8 inches away from his objective as he was onyl slowly starting to move off it once he felt comfortable, then once the combat phase came around selected the furies 1st and they made their retreat move onto the objective with the screamers and that was game turn 3. I felt bad as it was done by start of my turn 3 but loved that I actually pulled it off! Furies are def an awesome summon for this exact reason off the Gaunt Summoner on Disc. 

Keen to hear some of the others people have achieved/pulled off!

Totally understand that what i described about the Pinks is what people think should change, but don't want to make the focus about that.

Edited October 22, 2020 by RUNCMD

[Gwendar]

Got another one for you all with the same HD Magic list; this time vs Seraphon. Discussion is always appreciative 😅
 

 

[Kharl]

I played today against StD and won quite easily with this list.

Even if it is probably not the most opti one, I found it fun with good tricks. 
 

any comment?

TesthostsArcanum.pdf

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, Kharl said:

I played today against StD and won quite easily with this list.

Even if it is probably not the most opti one, I found it fun with good tricks. 
 

any comment?

Nice, always keen to hear how games go for people, especially with less common lists. Any reason for Burning Sigil over Balewind? It works pretty well with the Changecaster + Bolt. 

[Kharl]

It’s a mistake, I took the vortex

The sweet part here is moving the 2chickens in range before the start of the game and being in range.  +changescaster on BV.

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Kharl said:

It’s a mistake, I took the vortex

The sweet part here is moving the 2chickens in range before the start of the game and being in range.  +changescaster on BV.

Ah, makes sense then 😅

Yeah, I really need to give HA another try since the only time I tried it was with Skyshoal and.. well, that was a mistake. I'm just enjoying the HD lists too much though. This is an alternate take on the double chicken HA list I'm keen to run:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
 

Kinda want to try Geminids over BW to stack -'s to hit against the Pinks (or teleport the Fluxmaster, summon the 6 Screamers and throw it out to make them harder to hit) but I dunno, think I'll try this for now. Cogs giving Kairos 4 casts seems nice though and not something I think I would want to change.

[Paniere]

[EDIT ] Found my answer: Mastery of magic mechanic makes the dice changing count as unmodified

Edited October 27, 2020 by Paniere

[Kasper]

On 10/26/2020 at 2:46 PM, Gwendar said:

Ah, makes sense then 😅

Yeah, I really need to give HA another try since the only time I tried it was with Skyshoal and.. well, that was a mistake. I'm just enjoying the HD lists too much though. This is an alternate take on the double chicken HA list I'm keen to run:
 

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
 

Kinda want to try Geminids over BW to stack -'s to hit against the Pinks (or teleport the Fluxmaster, summon the 6 Screamers and throw it out to make them harder to hit) but I dunno, think I'll try this for now. Cogs giving Kairos 4 casts seems nice though and not something I think I would want to change.

How do you plan to deal with bigger sized units of stuff like Ardboyz, Mortek Guard, rats, Skinks etc.? We have talked about it a couple of times but I just couldnt imagine playing with the Manticore.  

[Gwendar]

38 minutes ago, Kasper said:

How do you plan to deal with bigger sized units of stuff like Ardboyz, Mortek Guard, rats, Skinks etc.? We have talked about it a couple of times but I just couldnt imagine playing with the Manticore.  

Yeah I know, that's the biggest issue I have with it... not having Winds of Chaos hurts but hopefully Treason combined with the other stuff can do alright.

Like I said before I've never been able to get HA to work for me but a lot of top tournament players have. I just don't think it suites me compared to my HD or Conflag lists 😅

Speaking of the latter, been theorycrafting up a non-changehost version of my Conflag list to incorporate Be'lakor + Kairos. Doubt I'll like it more since the 1 drop is so strong, but having Be'lakor + Kairos is also strong. Especially with a Daemonrift that can be thrown out from off the Bridge:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration

Leaders
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)

Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (100)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 71

 

[Kharl]

Just a quick question about Flamers and the rule touched by fire.

do you have to roll a number of dice equal to the number of wounds (2per model) or equal to the number of wounds inflicted in the combat phase? (As all attacks from the attacking model are made at the same time)

it would mean that if for instance a terrorgheist inflicts 20 wounds, you would roll 20 dices. Is there an official response? Thx 

[Gwendar]

10 minutes ago, Kharl said:

Just a quick question about Flamers and the rule touched by fire.

do you have to roll a number of dice equal to the number of wounds (2per model) or equal to the number of wounds inflicted in the combat phase? (As all attacks from the attacking model are made at the same time)

it would mean that if for instance a terrorgheist inflicts 20 wounds, you would roll 20 dices. Is there an official response? Thx 

Since you technically allocate wounds one at a time until a model dies, then yeah, you'd only roll dice for the max amount of wounds you had left if it wiped your unit (so a unit of 3 would roll 6 even if they did 20).

[Kasper]

Apologize if this has been discussed to death already but I tried searching without really finding a definitive answer here and been looking high and low elsewhere.

In regards to the agenda Mass Conjuration, can you complete this with Mastery of Magic on either Kairos or Lord of Change due to flipping a dice  as long as you roll a 5 or 6 ? Or will you have to roll a combinated natural 9+?

Seems difficult to figure out if Mastery of Magic is counted as a modifer and thus making it a modified 9+.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Kasper

[Gwendar]

9 hours ago, Kasper said:

Apologize if this has been discussed to death already but I tried searching without really finding a definitive answer here and been looking high and low elsewhere.

In regards to the agenda Mass Conjuration, can you complete this with Mastery of Magic on either Kairos or Lord of Change due to flipping a dice  as long as you roll a 5 or 6 ? Or will you have to roll a combinated natural 9+?

Seems difficult to figure out if Mastery of Magic is counted as a modifer and thus making it a modified 9+.

It's not modifier so it works on both of them. You're just changing the dice roll rather than "modifying" it which is a + or -.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Gwendar

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

It's not modifier so it works on both of them. You're just changing the dice roll rather than "modifying" it which is a + or -.

Is it set in stone that modifiers are only +/-to the roll of the dice? I thought changing the dice was considered a modifier. 

[Gwendar]

11 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Is it set in stone that modifiers are only +/-to the roll of the dice? I thought changing the dice was considered a modifier. 

I don't believe so (not that I can find right now at least) but I've yet to see anyone playing Tzeentch not do this. Personally I look at it as one of those undefined things.. some have even equated it to like how "setups" are not the same as "moves" and therefore let you keep any buffs for "not moving" etc.

[Kasper]

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I don't believe so (not that I can find right now at least) but I've yet to see anyone playing Tzeentch not do this. Personally I look at it as one of those undefined things.. some have even equated it to like how "setups" are not the same as "moves" and therefore let you keep any buffs for "not moving" etc.

I looked through the FAQs again and it doesnt look super clearcut, but this FAQ does seem to indicate that it isnt a modifier, since it specifically mentions it happens after re-rolls but before modifiers are applied. 

[Ragest]

Ok guys, my Aos group has been arguing for 5 hours about if the horrors split failing battleshocks or not.

 

So, what do you think guys?

[Ganigumo]

14 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Ok guys, my Aos group has been arguing for 5 hours about if the horrors split failing battleshocks or not.

 

So, what do you think guys?

Models lost to battleshock aren't slain, so you don't get to split, however you don't need to remove pinks first if they are fleeing due to battleshock, the warscroll only states that you must allocate wounds to pinks first.

Per the rules on battleshock:
 

Quote

If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. You decide which of the models from your units flee – remove them from play and count them as having been slain

They are counted as being slain, but fled, so they do not split.

Per the Horror Warscroll:
 

Quote

When you allocate wounds or mortal wounds to this unit, you must allocate them to a Pink Horror model if it is possible to do so. Each time an Iridescent Horror or Pink Horror model from a friendly unit with this ability is slain, you can add 2 Blue Horror models to that unit after removing the slain model

You only need to allocate wounds to pinks, not force them to flee first, and you only split when the model is slain (which it doesn't if it is lost to battleshock because it "flees" instead)