AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[TALegion]

Oh, wow. I hadn't heard that there would be brutes in beastgrave. I might play just to be able to use those models - they could be awesome

[broche]

@PlasticCraic video you shared doesn't seem to be Bloodshed (guy seem to play Big waaagh, i see a wurgog, no Megaboss, no pig)

[Backbreaker]

On 11/4/2019 at 1:57 AM, PlasticCraic said:

Well the good news is, Leo Rautonen recently beat Slaanesh to win Bloodshed (80+ player event) and you can watch how he beat them 

The video is really long and I'm not a good english speaker... could you sum it up for me ? Highlights of his list ? And of his gameplay ?

@broche is saying that it's a great waaagh army, can you deny that ? It's written Orruk Warclans so ...

Thanks, you give me hope ^^

[Jabbuk]

11 hours ago, TALegion said:

Oh, wow. I hadn't heard that there would be brutes in beastgrave. I might play just to be able to use those models - they could be awesome

Yeah man, you can be sure I'm buying that warband for AoS. They had me at Brutes models. I was looking back at the pictures and that Big Orruk with the skull mask, could he be some sort of Wardok leader for a band of Brutes? He doesn't seem to be wearing any armor and he looks too badass to be a simple grunt. He's either a Brute  wearing no armor on his upper body or some kind of Brute Wardok that could buff the Brutes. This is really intriguing. I'm also pushing aside the possibility or him being a Savage Orruk Wardok because he has metal on his skull, a signature of the Ironjawz. I'm starting to think that we didn't get any new models with the book because these warbands were coming. GW probably has a big over-arching marketing plan where they make sure that each faction (that's popular) will at least get something in the fiscal year. For example, Ogors only got the Tyrant but they will also get the Hunter guy with the frostsabers. IJ didn't get anything but we'll get this Brute group thing. 

Just a thought..

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Skumbaagh]

Quick question. With the ironsuns, can I attempt to charge several units at the end of the enemy charge phase? With one cp each? No, yes? 

[Jabbuk]

1 minute ago, Skumbaagh said:

Quick question. With the ironsuns, can I attempt to charge several units at the end of the enemy charge phase? With one cp each? No, yes? 

The rule in the book doesn't say anything about a limitation. As long as your unit is within 12' or an enemy unit and wholly within 18' of a friendly hero, and more than 3' from an enemy model. I would go ahead that yes, you could use it as many times as you want if you have the CPs.

[PlayerJ]

3 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

*snip*

From my knowledge of underworlds cards, the great fortitude card that's just a brute skull is only an artist's rendition of a extremely wounded orruk, hence the arrows also in his back.

There will be brute warband though, they'll just look like the other card examples. 

 

[PlasticCraic]

10 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

The video is really long and I'm not a good english speaker... could you sum it up for me ? Highlights of his list ? And of his gameplay ?

@broche is saying that it's a great waaagh army, can you deny that ? It's written Orruk Warclans so ...

Thanks, you give me hope ^^

So the list is actually reproduced in the blog (right above the YouTube link), you can see the whole thing in there.  Worth noting that Leo has a Megaboss on Foot and a large volume of Ardboyz in an Ironfist, but no Maw Krusha.  The army is Ironsunz and the neg 1 to hit didn't come into this game much (Slaanesh went first and just got onto the centre objectives), but the counter charging was really important. 

It looks like you're seeing the same video I am, which is weird.  I don't know why @broche is seeing something different - I've followed the link a couple of times myself from different devices and I get the correct video.  @broche can you maybe DM me the link you are following and a screenshot of what you see?  It's really weird that you seem to get a different video than me.

[Jabbuk]

Deleted

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jabbuk
Wrong info.

[broche]

@PlasticCraic It seem to be a game from Justice GT (Ironjawz took 3rd place and loose to Slaanesh). Weird!

Had my first club game against skaven today. He told me he would bring a softer list, so i tought I would try something softer as well:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Ironfist (160)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134
 

So pretty standart, went for weakest clan. We were playing total commitment. He had to screen his back row against deepstriking opportunity, so I took first turn and charged with the 9 pigs and Maw krusha, killed 3 Stormfiend and a bunch of clan rat. His turn he counterattack with fully buffed 40 stormvermin, Verminlord and Clawlord, killing 3 pig's squad, but I managed to save 3 pig  from the 6 squad thanks to reroll save triumph.  Killed the Clawlord before he attack. Maw krusha ate another squad of clanrats (he should have retreated them but he tough they would hold a turn). I won priority and teleported my 5 useless brutes and stealed one of his objective,  MK killed more stuff and threatened his second objective. Stormvermin continu to shred gruntas and ardboys, but at this point he didn't had enough board coverage to come back so that was it. 

So obviously Warchanter are dope. The fact that it last make the army much more resilient to double turning than before (specially against melee army).

As expected Bloodtooth is not great (beside the fact that most of my model are painted Red to fit the theme). +1 charge is never bad. +1 run is mostly irrelevant. There was a realmgate on the table but I never waaagh so trait did nothing. Did not had a chance to use command ability either, but i still like it. Unlike Ironsunz wich is more straightfoward, I think this one is the kind of ability that you'll mostly never use, but could pull you out of a difficult game. Quickduff is obviously super good, but taking a Megaboss for it suck a bit. At the end you might as well just put it on the MK.

Speaking of the MK, i'm pretty sure Fast'un would be my default mount trait. 

1. If something can be kill, warchanter damage boost should be enough to kill it.

2. If something can't be kill, mean'un will end up do nothing, i'd rather have the +2 move to help me find something more juicy to attack.

Edited November 6, 2019 by broche

[Tezia99]

If it’s helpful you can also just search bloodshed in the shores on YouTube and look through their streams to find the game. I’ve watched a couple now and he really plays them well. Some of his opponents make some really grave mistakes by forgetting that we can charge in their combat phase.  Really enjoyed watching some tournament style play with more competitive lists and fewer rule errors than in some of the more fluff channels

[Malakree]

6 hours ago, broche said:

Speaking of the MK, i'm pretty sure Fast'un would be my default mount trait. 

1. If something can be kill, warchanter damage boost should be enough to kill it.

2. If something can't be kill, mean'un will end up do nothing, i'd rather have the +2 move to help me find something more juicy to attack.

I'm of a similar mind with Mean 'Un, although I do really miss it a ton...having a 2 damage MK fist is so depressing  Personally though I'm leaning into the Weird 'Un as my default trait. There's quite a few nasty spells kicking around with CoS being a thing among others that were already floating around. Weird 'Un makes the Cabbage a less appealing target and gives you a 50% chance to just ignore it if your opponent does decide to chance it.

[DestructionFranz]

8 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I'm of a similar mind with Mean 'Un, although I do really miss it a ton...having a 2 damage MK fist is so depressing  Personally though I'm leaning into the Weird 'Un as my default trait. There's quite a few nasty spells kicking around with CoS being a thing among others that were already floating around. Weird 'Un makes the Cabbage a less appealing target and gives you a 50% chance to just ignore it if your opponent does decide to chance it.

I think that a MawKrusha with Weird Un + Ignax Scale + Ironclad (especially in a Big Waaagh army) is immortal. Even against Nagash or Tzeentch. 

 

[Arkahn]

29 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

I think that a MawKrusha with Weird Un + Ignax Scale + Ironclad (especially in a Big Waaagh army) is immortal. Even against Nagash or Tzeentch. 

 

In that case Weird'un is too much imo, Mean'un for extra damages with an already tanky MK 

[Kasper]

I really like the +2 move since it really helps when it starts to bracket. Also gives it significantly more threat range with Mighty Destroyers. The 4+ Weird Un' is also great since it lets it stay longer on the board = Means more damage from SFV stacks. I think the other ones are too weak.

[Jackroks981]

3 hours ago, DestructionFranz said:

I think that a MawKrusha with Weird Un + Ignax Scale + Ironclad (especially in a Big Waaagh army) is immortal. Even against Nagash or Tzeentch. 

 

This is what I’ve been rocking as of late, enemy has to commit a horrendous amount of stuff to deal with him. The guy is so Killy anyway I think making him as tanky as can be is best option to go for sure. Your opponent can’t let him rampage around and do his thing, but they also can’t deal with him without committing most of  their forces to the task. 

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, DestructionFranz said:

I think that a MawKrusha with Weird Un + Ignax Scale + Ironclad (especially in a Big Waaagh army) is immortal. Even against Nagash or Tzeentch. 

 

Since I'm basically always going to use a clan I'll never be running that setup.

Mine atm is sunblessed armour and Weird Un. Still weak to generic mortal wounds but still a massive problem for the opponent to deal with.

I'm weighing up Ironjawz Waaagh! Against just having a weirdnob be the general for d3 command points. I guess my biggest reason for running one general over the other would actually come down to the extended range on the different CAs. 

[Backbreaker]

@PlasticCraic Thank you for your blog, it was a great read ! Especially the part about Ironsunz counter charges happening after slaanesh locus... how could I miss that !!!

A list without a MK can put a lot of wounds on the table but that model is so awesome that I want to do something competitiv with it.

[Gareth 🍄]

On 11/5/2019 at 3:06 AM, Jabbuk said:

A little of a side topic but I am super pumped to get the new Brutes models that will come in Beastgrave. I've gathered 4 images here that depicts them into that universe. 

One with a pony tail: 

Another one with a pony tail but with metal jaw: 

Here's one with more of a bone jaw, classic setup but with axes: 

And finally, a badass one with what looks like could be the leader of the band: 

Perhaps these Brutes will be better?

How long is the wait between warband releases typically? Dying to get my hands on any new Ironjawz and that Ogor Hunter!

[Jabbuk]

10 minutes ago, Gareth 🍄 said:

How long is the wait between warband releases typically? Dying to get my hands on any new Ironjawz and that Ogor Hunter!

I don't know man, I've asked the same question around here to people who know WH Underworlds better than me. GW seems to have changed their approach compared to last year where they released 2 warbands every 3 months or something. Now they only released one lately and the Snarlfangs are still waiting to come in Pre-order. I have no clue when they will arrive unfortunately. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Jabbuk

[PlayerJ]

6 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I don't know man, I've asked the same question around here to people who know WH Underworlds better than me. GW seems to have changed their approach compared to last year where they released 2 warbands every 3 months or something. Now they only released one lately and the Snarlfangs are still waiting to come in Pre-order. I have no clue when they will arrive unfortunately. 

 

16 minutes ago, Gareth 🍄 said:

How long is the wait between warband releases typically? Dying to get my hands on any new Ironjawz and that Ogor Hunter!

This time around a new warband will release about a month and a half apart

[Planar]

On 11/2/2019 at 9:39 PM, Malakree said:

Game 2 was vs 30 hearthguard on starstrike. Stars landed in a blob under the hearthguard, real boring nothing of note happened.

 

Really curious, does everyone still feels Fyreslayers is a hopelss match up for IJ? Or I am reading this wrong?

[broche]

2 minutes ago, Planar said:

Really curious, does everyone still feels Fyreslayers is a hopelss match up for IJ? Or I am reading this wrong?

I think it's not easy, but certainly not hopeless. The situation @Malakree describe is really specific to a scenario. You could basically replace berserker by "anything resistant enough" here. 60 night goblin, 30 pheonix guard, 30 savage orruck with 3+ save ect. Berskerker are a bit more scary because they also hit like a train. Ironjawz advantage over Fyreslayer is not really combat, it's more mobility and board coverage, so you need to start the game with that mind set. Kill what can be killed to hinder is model count and board coverage and use your superior mobility to control more objective. Obviously it work better in some battleplan than other.

Starstrike is really a strange scenario. I'm a bit with @PlasticCraic advice on that that skewing the objective toward the middle board wasn't necesseraly a great change.

[Malakree]

13 minutes ago, Planar said:

Really curious, does everyone still feels Fyreslayers is a hopelss match up for IJ? Or I am reading this wrong?

It's scenario dependent. Buffed up 30 Hearthguard is basically the only thing in the game I would say we have no hope of killing, I was forced to slam everything into it and managed to kill ~22/23 of them at the cost of my ENTIRE army. He moved up the middle, first objective landed right in the middle of his blob, my objective landed right in front of it (about 3"...) and his landed just behind it. I either sat there and stared at him or hoped I could kill him, honestly if forced to play it again I'd do the second, score my secondaries and then handshake. Had the objectives landed in vastly different areas of the board then I would have been able to play the objectives and nullify his unkillable block. 

I had moved so that if they dropped anywhere than in the middle of the board they were mine. Sadly the RNG favoured him.

Just now, broche said:

I think it's not easy, but certainly not hopeless. The situation @Malakree describe is really specific to a scenario. You could basically replace berserker by "anything resistant enough" here. 60 night goblin, 30 pheonix guard, 30 savage orruck with 3+ save ect. Berskerker are a bit more scary because they also hit like a train. Ironjawz advantage over Fyreslayer is not really combat, it's more mobility and board coverage, so you need to start the game with that mind set. Kill what can be killed to hinder is model count and board coverage and use your superior mobility to control more objective. Obviously it work better in some battleplan than other.

Starstrike is really a strange scenario. I'm a bit with @PlasticCraic advice on that that skewing the objective toward the middle board wasn't necesseraly a great change.

None of those replace Hearthguard in that scenario. I would have butchered all of those, hell I played a game on the friday before hand and killed something like 50 Phoenix guard. Hearthguard are the only things that we totally bounce off, especially since he can activate them at the beginning of the combat phase, then activate as his first activation during the combat phase.

Starstrike should be 1d3 to determine which 1/3rd of the board then 1d3 to determine which part of that board. As it is starstrike is one of those battleplans which should just never be used in tournaments.

As it is I was relying on either a 55.5% chance (2-5 and 9-12), ideally a 33.3% chance (2-4/10-12), followed by the second and third not landing by the first AND not by each other. If any 2 drop next to each other you lose vs hearthguard. I'd say it's about 90% odds in their favour.

Biased Battleplans

In my opinion the Battleplans which are bad for tournaments.

1. Knife to the Heart
2. Starstrike
3. Relocation Orb
4. Blood and Glory
5. Gift from the Heavens
6. Take and Hold

Two battleplans which should probably also not be used are Places of Arcane Power and Three Places of Power. This is because Escalation is basically a better version of them.

 

[broche]

21 minutes ago, Malakree said:

None of those replace Hearthguard in that scenario. I would have butchered all of those, hell I played a game on the friday before hand and killed something like 50 Phoenix guard.

Actually the most resilent units per point is 30 savage orruk with +2 save at a whooping 0.72 pts per effective wound. 

Anyway I get that berserker are probably the worst because of the strike first and the fact that the hit relative hard, you won't grind thru 30 phoenix guard  that fast either. They have access to -1 to wound as well, and stuff like 6++, minus to hit, and they also can hit quite hard. They can bring back d6 model per turn with Lifeswarm. 

Goblin could combine geminid with net, and they are pretty cheap. + they can stall with fanatics.

It's not just about killing the bloob is also about how much they score before. You need to kill it and then be able to score both turn 4 and 5