AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[PlasticCraic]

49 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

Another shaman and a 40 point endless spell or upgrade a unit to brutes

Is the Vortex staying at 40 points?

Wholly within 18" of a nice wide "base" is a lot more achievable.

Still probably not a turn 1 option, unless you do something like Boat the Ardboyz and Hand of Gork the second caster.  If you did that, you'd obviously attempt to cast his RR Wounds spell first (from out of unbind range), so if it fails you can use Hand on something else.

Edited June 19, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[Rock Lobster]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Is the Vortex staying at 40 points?

Wholly within 18" of a nice wide "base" is a lot more achievable.

Still probably not a turn 1 option, unless you do something like Boat the Ardboyz and Hand of Gork the second caster.  If you did that, you'd obviously attempt to cast his RR Wounds spell first (from out of unbind range), so if it fails you can use Hand on something else.

If you are going crazy buffs you can always reroll wounds on them first in the hero phase (assuming you don't need to stay in range) and hand of gork after. It may need you to be within range in the combat phase though, I havnt seen the wording. Plus if you go for the 2nd shaman you miss out on the 2nd +1 to hit from the 2nd warchanter.

[PlasticCraic]

Just now, Rock Lobster said:

If you are going crazy buffs you can always reroll wounds on them first in the hero phase (assuming you don't need to stay in range) and hand of gork after. It may need you to be within range in the combat phase though, I havnt seen the wording. Plus if you go for the 2nd shaman you miss out on the 2nd +1 to hit from the 2nd warchanter.

I've read the rule and it says "Bash em Lads has a casting value of 8.  If succesfully cast, until your next hero phase* you can reroll wound rolls for attacks made by friendly Ironjawz units while they are wholly within 12" of the caster".

So you do need to be within range at the time you are rolling the dice - however on the upside you can also benefit with Hero phase pile ins.

I think what puts me off is the weakness of the spellcaster in question, but it might have some applications.

*not "In the next combat phase", whuuut? 

[Lanoss]

Can someone please justify Gordrakk’s point cost?

Not having a rant... just don’t get why he’s still 140 more than a regular MBMK (which still feels overpoint imo)

[PlasticCraic]

I think it was Donal who talked about "Anchor pricing"...Gordrakk is a prime example of that imo.

Tweaking up or down from their existing points, rather than assessing what he's really worth from the ground up.

If you were pointing him from scratch today, there's no way you'd go anywhere near that points level for him (or the regular MBMK).

That being said you could also quite feasibly start by looking at his current points of 580 and say "that's ridiculous, let's knock XYZ points off". 

But I guess there's also an element of losing face with things like that, by effectively admitting that either they did a terrible job of setting his original points (true), and / or several years of wild power creep has left him floundering (also true).

I guess it is what it is for now...hopefully a book will make him more viable in the future.

For now I do think there is some play in a Gordrakk + Brute Fists list, albeit maybe not the most competitive army we can field.

Edited June 20, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[Scurvydog]

As mentioned in a general discussion thread about the GHB, I think it makes a lot of sense that points are not changed too drastically, even thought it will balance things out better on paper here and now. 

If I was to set points for the mawkrushas right now, it would more likely be something similar to 360 for the standard MK and then Gordrakk at 440, but then people buy their armies at these discounts, but what then when a new book finally comes and returns points and model power to where they should be. Points alo dictate shopping lists for people, so GW will end up with unhappy customers if they change too much and too often.

I don't get why they do not update warscrolls more from time to time though. Sometimes they do changes nobody asks for, and the next day they suddenly do not want to touch warscrolls. As also a seraphon player, I was baffled by a change to the astrolith bearer warscroll around christmas, suddenly changing the buff range to "wholly within" out of nowhere. If they can do those changes without any rhyme or reason, why not do something sensible and update a weak warscroll?

If they only want to do small changes, then a fix to Whaagh would be better, it is a clunky ability at best and at the very least should just be changed to be used in the combat phase, so it also works defensively in the opponents turn, that would be a big deal with a small wording change.

Gordrakk at that massive point cost should also have access to mighty whaagh, and his current command ability should just be a free once per game ability, I think that would make him much more seen in play, as he could then more effectively replace a regular Megaboss.

Afraid we got to wait quite a bit for a book at this point, but as long as they create a foot of gork endless spell I am ok with a bit more waiting.

[tolstedt]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

 Afraid we got to wait quite a bit for a book at this point, but as long as they create a foot of gork endless spell I am ok with a bit more waiting.

I already got you covered.
 

 

[broche]

6 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Gordrakk at that massive point cost should also have access to mighty whaagh, and his current command ability should just be a free once per game ability, I think that would make him much more seen in play, as he could then more effectively replace a regular Megaboss.

That would be realist. However as a free ability I would not extend it to bataillion I think, just 1 unit. And maybe an extended Waaagh bubble like 18''. Don't forget he smash significantly better than regular Krusha (especially against Wizard)

[newsun]

I'm excited as I'm still painting up my ardfist and soon I'll have some free points. GHB has been kind to me it appears.

[Malakree]

3 minutes ago, newsun said:

I'm excited as I'm still painting up my ardfist and soon I'll have some free points. GHB has been kind to me it appears.

Imo a good ardfist is now a 3/4 win army, it's probably the strongest list we've got. Play for the objectives and force your opponent to fight for every inch.

[SireScott]

Hi all

For the 30 ork ardboy units how many shield boys do you suggest? I've just been using 4 per 10 but I'm unsure of the perfect ratio. On a second note what do people use for extra shields if you go past 4 in 10?

[Malakree]

13 minutes ago, SireScott said:

Hi all

For the 30 ork ardboy units how many shield boys do you suggest? I've just been using 4 per 10 but I'm unsure of the perfect ratio. On a second note what do people use for extra shields if you go past 4 in 10?

4 shields, a drummer, a banner and an icon is 8 shields per 10.

Personally I'm of the opinion that 20-29 shields is optimal, the unit is a there to soak damage/pin the enemy not kill them and shields scale with each other. This is slightly awkward to explain but if you take 6 on shields then you generate 1 "extra" wound for 7 effective wounds instead of 6. If you take 36 hits on shields there you generate 6 "extra" wounds which then also generate an "extra" wound for a total of 43(.17) effective wounds rather than 36. The first is a minor increase the second one is massive.

The reason for 29 is simple, your unit boss gets +1 to hit so you have to roll him separately anyway. I use the 2h weapon him to make use of it 😉

[SireScott]

10 minutes ago, Malakree said:

4 shields, a drummer, a banner and an icon is 8 shields per 10.

Personally I'm of the opinion that 20-29 shields is optimal, the unit is a there to soak damage/pin the enemy not kill them and shields scale with each other. This is slightly awkward to explain but if you take 6 on shields then you generate 1 "extra" wound for 7 effective wounds instead of 6. If you take 36 hits on shields there you generate 6 "extra" wounds which then also generate an "extra" wound for a total of 43(.17) effective wounds rather than 36. The first is a minor increase the second one is massive.

The reason for 29 is simple, your unit boss gets +1 to hit so you have to roll him separately anyway. I use the 2h weapon him to make use of it 😉

Thanks for the response  Malakree. Perhaps to play devils advocate you are trading a 50 percent increase in damage for a 16.7 percent increase in health. Why is that such a good trade that you would go all shields?

[Malakree]

5 minutes ago, SireScott said:

Thanks for the response  Malakree. Perhaps to play devils advocate you are trading a 50 percent increase in damage for a 16.7 percent increase in health. Why is that such a good trade that you would go all shields?

Ardboy base damage output is garbage, the real damage for ironjawz comes from the waaagh! bomb. Inside the bomb not only do numbers matter quite heavily, 5 extra ardboys can be 60+ extra attacks, but again the ardboys aren't your damage source, that's your mawkrusha and brutes.

So the role of the ardboys isn't to kill your opponent, its to pin and grind while you setup the bomb. In that role what matters is how much you can pin and for how long.  Ideally you want at least 2 turns to build cps, get into position and then bomb the enemy.

[VonSmall]

What does the 30 block movement / T1 choice look like when the opponenet has a screen of their own backed by flyers (ala FEC / Nighthaunt / IDK / DoT)?

[ShaneHobbes]

Sorry for the stupid question or if this has been answered already but can Gloomspite Wizards use the Ironjawz spell lore when Allied? The Azyr warscroll builder let's them and I'm pretty sure but that's an error cause man that would be too awesome 

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Sorry for the stupid question or if this has been answered already but can Gloomspite Wizards use the Ironjawz spell lore when Allied? The Azyr warscroll builder let's them and I'm pretty sure but that's an error cause man that would be too awesome 

No. It's an allegiance ability and allies can't benefit from allegiance abilities.

[newsun]

Think this is what's shaping up for me...

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Orruk Megaboss 
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Warchanter
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman
Fungoid Cave-Shaman
30 Ardboyz

20 Ardboyz

10 Ardboyz

10 Ardboyz

10 Ardboyz

5 x Brutes
Ardfist
Quicksilver Swords
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 167
 

If the Fungoid go up in points I may have to make the Brutes into more Ardboyz or GG and drop the swords. I could also downgrade them now and drop swords for another CP. Options. Thematically I really like them as the MB's elite guard. And since I'm painting them as Zedek's weirdladz it's nice to add the shaman.

[Balrogue]

Everybody do 2k points lists. What about 1k ? You never play 1000 points games ? 

[Drillz]

is it just me or did we kinda get a nerf with this new GHB

[Rid]

2 hours ago, Drillz said:

is it just me or did we kinda get a nerf with this new GHB

How do you reckon that?

[Rock Lobster]

3 hours ago, Drillz said:

is it just me or did we kinda get a nerf with this new GHB

Depends on your definition of a nerf.

if your definition of a nerf is many of our units getting cheaper, battalions getting cheaper, mega battalions getting cheaper and stronger, additional very useful command abilities and a new and extremely useful spell lore a nerf... then I suppose it’s a nerf...

[Slandible]

I've gone 3-0 now since the changes.  My only downside is that  Ardfist feels mandatory in the meta of summoning.   Boyz are so incredibly cost effective now and have huge bravery under Bloodtoofs and the ability to bring them all back is essential. 

My last game it was going the old way.  I was not winning the attrition war vs Slaneesh and by end of top of 3, I had no infantry left on the board and would normally have been the end.  But bottom of 3 bring back 50 boyz and Hand of Gork a large squad across the table and suddenly back in it an ahead on attrition.  

I want to try some other lists out too, but boyz spam feels like the only way to compete with the meta until the new book happens. 

[Luzgurbel]

Played yesterday against FeC in a small 1000 points challenge. Most frustrated game ver played. I feel rather useless just because I can't stop in any way the King in Terror attacking first and attacking twice even being charged... With no effort at all from my rival.

[Shankelton]

 

Overall the changes seem decent from a bandaid, meta perspective. Spell lore and a few quality of life changes were all I'd hoped for well we wait till last to get a proper 2.0 edition battletome. Where hopefully we get some more interesting allegiance abilities and some much needed lore love!

 

I will say, I'm not super pumped about ard boyz getting even more cost efficient and dominant over brutes. Definitely solved a playability issue, but I've always hated the models haha. Those metal mittens just kinda clash with the whole new line of minis that are the ironjawz!