AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[broche]

Just checked SA GT, Skaven placed 1st and 4th less than a month after battletome. Best destruction was Kunnin ruk (10th place) followed by Gitz (11th place).

I don't believe this still learning the rule ******. If Gitz were that good, they would already be placing better than that. They're not that bad, It's just for an obscure reason, GW did not did huge price mistake for them, so their cost is mostly accurate (unlike DoK, Idoneth and Skaven who got those insane unjustified discount on some unit).

 For the past season the best placing destro army have been those destro mix with Magma dragon or Bonesplitterz (both before Gitz).  I still think Bonesplitterz currently have the best shot at placing well at a big event, for the fact the are basically immune to rend and  don't care much for mortal, and have access to decent damage spike.

The biggest meta shuffle we can anticipate is probabably GHB2019.

 

[Skeekrit]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

I know from attending slaughter and heat 1 that there are very few people who have seriously been playing them super well. Most of the lists are fluff lists, see the Troggherds at heat 1, or people are still learning the rules. Example being @Skeekrit who I know from our game is still learning/remembering all the new stuff from the Gloomspite book, even despite that he still qualified for the Grant Tournament!

I think we could make Gitz into a 3-2 or 4-1 army with practice. @Malakree is correct - I made lots of mistakes at Sheffield (including the fluff of 2 Gargants) - and then mistakes in some of the games at GW Heat 1. I do have the advantage of having played a Grot horde army for a very long time, so I know what most things can do, but the fiddly bit went wrong a few times. I think we will need kind draws to get back to @Donal's 5-0 standard!

And I do agree that Skaven seem very good, but I can only play with one alliance due to time constraints otherwise I get very confused. And I love destruction... or Grots!

Also edit: Sorry, this is the Ironjawz chat... @Malakreeconfused me

Edited March 17, 2019 by Skeekrit

[newsun]

I think there is some play with over 200 models in Gitz, but most are not gonna paint that is all.

[tolstedt]

Anyone try stabbas or shootas as allies in ironjawz?  Anyone try 6 rockguts?

[Malakree]

23 minutes ago, tolstedt said:

Anyone try stabbas or shootas as allies in ironjawz?  Anyone try 6 rockguts?

My issue with them is that they function as a direct replacement for something we are already doing but without the benefits of being Ironjawz, Stabbas/Shootas fit in the exact same role as Ardboys while Rockguts are just Brute replacements. Generally if you're allying it should be something that you can't get within faction, good shooting and wizards being the archetypal options.

[Scurvydog]

I'd also really like some Rockguts just because I love the model but got no plans to collect the gitz. It is true though that they do not bring much, as the only thing Ironjawz got going is the Ironjawz keyword, so being in batallions like ironfist and bloodtoofs and getting benefit from Whaaag's which are also our only command point usage.

 

I have a hard time fitting any allies in due to that, even though there are several nice destruction aligned models I'd like to parade next to my IJ's. Still hoping for the same treatment beasts and Skaven got with some combined book soon.

[broche]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

My issue with them is that they function as a direct replacement for something we are already doing but without the benefits of being Ironjawz, Stabbas/Shootas fit in the exact same role as Ardboys while Rockguts are just Brute replacements

Not quite true. They bring you damage outside the combat phase (either short range good damage or mid range mortal wound) 
in a good bargain unit.  Drawback is that they don't benefit/trigger from Waaaagh, but unbuffed both Trogoth are much more
efficient than Brutes (also a tad faster). Didn't get a chance to try them yet unfortunatly...

Big stabbas, i don't really see any use.

[Vasshpit]

I always thought a big block of Gitmob archers and a shaman could provide great support for the Jawz. 

Never tried  it though. 

[broche]

43 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I always thought a big block of Gitmob archers and a shaman could provide great support for the Jawz. 

i think the shaman went away (model is now under  Madcap shaman). They are still on the app tough, so not sure what will happen. I guess it's still legal at least until next ghb!

[Malakree]

4 hours ago, broche said:

Not quite true. They bring you damage outside the combat phase (either short range good damage or mid range mortal wound) 
in a good bargain unit.  Drawback is that they don't benefit/trigger from Waaaagh, but unbuffed both Trogoth are much more
efficient than Brutes (also a tad faster). Didn't get a chance to try them yet unfortunatly...

My argument here then is that you shouldn't be allying them into ironjawz, you should just run gloomspite. It's like taking 90 Grimghast reapers and arkhan then running nighthaunt instead of LoN. In that situation you're running IJ for fluff reasons so embrace it and be a real Orruk!

3 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

I always thought a big block of Gitmob archers and a shaman could provide great support for the Jawz. 

Never tried  it though. 

So this is potentially my fault, when I read "shootas/stabbas" I immediately took it to be the Gloomspite units. In that case Shootas are bad enough that they are basically stabbas without the shields. 

Gitmob Archers with a Shaman are an entirely different beast that is definitely still viable, not least because it's 10 points cheaper than the 60 stabbas and you get an extra unbind, thus satisfying both of my caveats.

7 hours ago, Malakree said:

....good shooting and wizards being the archetypal options.

2 hours ago, broche said:

i think the shaman went away (model is now under  Madcap shaman). They are still on the app tough, so not sure what will happen. I guess it's still legal at least until next ghb!

It's still legal till they remove it from the GBH, until then the Gitmob block and the Bannerboss are still two of our strongest allies options.

[broche]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

My argument here then is that you shouldn't be allying them into ironjawz, you should just run gloomspite.

Again, i really don't see how that's helpful. The discussion is about ally choice for Ironjawz. 

Question was: can Troggoth be a good ally choice for Ironjawz, ie is it worth it to sacrifice 1-2 units of Gruntas/Brutes/Ardboys for 1-2 units of Troggoth. It's not should i run troggoth IJ or buy/paint a gloomspite

You seem to think answer is no (wich is totally acceptable). I'm advocating they could be usefull because they bring some shooting support without seemingly hindering too much IJ general strategy (smashing face), and thus might worth a try.

the 2 main situation i can see them usefull are:

1. Grind down a screen/character before a Crusha charge

2. Clear an almost dead unit pinning hard hitter so they can charge.

 

 

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, broche said:

Question was: can Troggoth be a good ally choice for Ironjawz, ie is it worth it to sacrifice 1-2 units of Gruntas/Brutes/Ardboys for 1-2 units of Troggoth. It's not should i run troggoth IJ or buy/paint a gloomspite

While I like the troggs I personally would say that for an ironjawz army just taking units of 5 brutes would be a better option. The power of the waaagh! On a brute boss outweighs anything the troggs might bring imo.

My argument essentially boils down to are you running a waaagh! Machine, if yes then 5 brutes are better for a whole host of reasons. If you aren't then you're running some for of niche list which will prefer to run whatever it's theme is. In either case what you'd be looking for is something which ironjawz can't provide, not a slightly different take on brutes.

The only case I can think of where you would want troggs in ironjawz is 6 rockguts in alongside The Big G. That particular synergy totally justifies including them.

To put it more out for debate, what sort of list are you considering and how does the list utilise them in a way which our other options can't. I ask because I'm struggling to come up with such a list.

[Aelfric]

30 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The only case I can think of where you would want troggs in ironjawz is 6 rockguts in alongside The Big G. That particular synergy totally justifies including them.

3 Troggs and a Fungoid Cave Shaman with the Arachnacauldron for some teleporting - something Ironjaws can't do.  As a bonus, you also get the use of Itchy Nuisance (other spells are also available).

[tolstedt]

10 hours ago, Malakree said:

My issue with them is that they function as a direct replacement for something we are already doing but without the benefits of being Ironjawz, Stabbas/Shootas fit in the exact same role as Ardboys while Rockguts are just Brute replacements. Generally if you're allying it should be something that you can't get within faction, good shooting and wizards being the archetypal options.

I agree.  My thought is you can't get 20 bodies for 130 in ironjawz.

[tolstedt]

What about horde style?  Run the ardfist forward turn one to die.  Second wave of brutes.  Pretty silly  but good on a few maps.

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 171
 

[Luzgurbel]

Nowadays is sooooo quite easy to snipe the Warchanter with mw... I dislike Ardfist for that reason. 2 spells at him and he is dead, and you have a useless batallion.

[newsun]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

While I like the troggs I personally would say that for an ironjawz army just taking units of 5 brutes would be a better option. The power of the waaagh! On a brute boss outweighs anything the troggs might bring imo.

My argument essentially boils down to are you running a waaagh! Machine, if yes then 5 brutes are better for a whole host of reasons. If you aren't then you're running some for of niche list which will prefer to run whatever it's theme is. In either case what you'd be looking for is something which ironjawz can't provide, not a slightly different take on brutes.

The only case I can think of where you would want troggs in ironjawz is 6 rockguts in alongside The Big G. That particular synergy totally justifies including them.

To put it more out for debate, what sort of list are you considering and how does the list utilise them in a way which our other options can't. I ask because I'm struggling to come up with such a list.

Even with mawkrusha you can't waagh all of 4x6 consider what is part of the waagh, the rest can be from allies as they are unlikely to receive the benefit on their flank. At that point the Trogs get more interesting as they bring something IJ does not have.

1 hour ago, tolstedt said:

What about horde style?  Run the ardfist forward turn one to die.  Second wave of brutes.  Pretty silly  but good on a few maps.

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 171
 

I like. This is what I'm going to build with a similar idea. Mostly keep sending waves and grinding it out. Losing the MB could suck as there is no redundancy.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 196
 

[broche]

I'm considering 3 troggoth in my weirdfist, as I play an extra unit outside the fist (currently Gruntas) . With low-average luck, i'm usually pulling 4-5 mortal (of an arcane bolt). This will often fall short of killing a foot character. Troggoth would allow me to increase the average volume of mortal/high rend shoot each turn to clear off this annoying Castellan or Arcanum. Also, both troggoth units are currently a really good match against a unis of 5 Sequitor (common in stormcast list, usually the most played army) . It will also increase your odd of triggering  a destructive bulk double charge which is really powerful when it happen.

Drawback is obviously they don't benefit from waaaagh (both counting unit and bonus attack). But you only waaagh half of round and you usually won't get everyone in the waaagh. Troll have better raw damage ouput than brutes agains stuff less than 4 lifes, and 1'' extra move (factoring the +1 charge) and will sometime heal. drawback is their awful bravery. but they are 20 pts cheaper also. I think they can act as a great outskirt unit. Before you had the Hag at 360 now Hag is 380 (so eat up your full ally). 6 trolls is only 320 (meaning you could still spam a madcap shaman), or play 3 x troll and fungoid or Orruk warboss.

They're certainly not an auto include but they are certainly a good choice. When you do the match, they are actually super cost effective.

[tolstedt]

10 hours ago, newsun said:

I like. This is what I'm going to build with a similar idea. Mostly keep sending waves and grinding it out. Losing the MB could suck as there is no redundancy.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)

I've played the ardfist enough and would caution against a 30 of boyz.  They are too 'ard to die and bring back.  Unless you keep them back on an objective.  That might be their best strategic value.

[broche]

i think IJ are much better played as MSU, with maybe 1-2 double size units if you want to stack buff and have bigger single damage spike.

[Malakree]

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- General: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 204

If I was going to run an Ardfist it would probably be this list, main reason I haven't tried it is because I'm 60 Ardboys short and really aren't in the mood for painting more of them. Thought processes behind it are fairly simple.

1. In the current Metagame you need to tank the Battalion warchanter up as hard as possible.
2. Weirdnob is there because with this many Orruks it feels like a crime not to. Probably casts Mystic shield more than Foot though.
3. Unit of 30 Ardboys is there to act as the core of your army, it's such a nightmare for everyone to remove you should be able to get on a key objective then hold it.
4. The two blocks of 20 are your satalite units, they act hyper aggressively and screen the flanks of the unit of 30 so that your opponent is forced to kill them before they can fully commit onto your block of 30.
5. Two units of 10 then act as utility. Claiming "safe points" suiciding to stall a key enemy unit for a turn, screening drops etc. They act more independently than the rest of the army.
6. Bannerboss is your Waaagh! source. Due to how the army works/plays out you're going to struggle to get/keep 6 IJ in range of a 10" bubble. This just avoids that issue completely. The wound reroll is the icing on the cake.

At a fundamental level it operates exactly the same as every other Ironjawz list I've ever concocted with the sole exception of my Weirdcabbage list. Only difference is that you get more wounds, can potentially bring them back and they are tankier than other variations. IMO this is probably the most viable IJ list for "winning" games rather than cheesing them off the back of Foot.

[newsun]

9 hours ago, tolstedt said:

I've played the ardfist enough and would caution against a 30 of boyz.  They are too 'ard to die and bring back.  Unless you keep them back on an objective.  That might be their best strategic value.

It does not matter if they come back. As long as 1-2 units of 10 come back I've gotten value out of the battalion. 170 to get less drops, +1cp, and 160+ points back on the field means it's basically paid for itself after a single unit is returned.

[PlasticCraic]

On 3/18/2019 at 7:00 AM, broche said:

Just checked SA GT, Skaven placed 1st and 4th less than a month after battletome. Best destruction was Kunnin ruk (10th place) followed by Gitz (11th place).

I don't believe this still learning the rule ******. If Gitz were that good, they would already be placing better than that. They're not that bad, It's just for an obscure reason, GW did not did huge price mistake for them, so their cost is mostly accurate (unlike DoK, Idoneth and Skaven who got those insane unjustified discount on some unit).

 For the past season the best placing destro army have been those destro mix with Magma dragon or Bonesplitterz (both before Gitz).  I still think Bonesplitterz currently have the best shot at placing well at a big event, for the fact the are basically immune to rend and  don't care much for mortal, and have access to decent damage spike.

The biggest meta shuffle we can anticipate is probabably GHB2019.

 

I agree with this, we're not using excuses about new books for Skaven (also a horde army) or FEC, even though their books are newer.

To put it another way, let's look at the average placing of the top finisher for each of those new books since release:

FEC: 2nd

Skaven: 3rd

Gloomspite: 28th

Or looking at Podiums:

FEC and Skaven: 5 Podiums from 3 large events

Gloomspite Gits: 0 Podiums from 5 large events

Let's expand it to Top 10s:

FEC and Skaven: 11 Top 10s from 3 large events

Gloomspite Gits: 0 Top 10s from 5 large events

The other books have already catapulted to the top of the meta, which anyone who had a brief glance at their rules could have (and did) predict with confidence.

Or more anecdotally, I can tell you that the Gloomspite WhatsApp got a significant influx of filth chasers when the book was announced, most of whom left the group or stopped posting when significantly better books came out shortly afterwards.

You can slice it up whichever way you like, Destruction has been given the shaft yet again.  We got a good book in an era of great books, so it was left behind by power creep before it had even left the starting gate.

It's true that most of the people running GG are using novelty / fluff lists.  But why is that?  Because the filth chasers have evaluated the alternatives, and deemed that their best and easiest chance of winning most of their games is by running something different.  And the results are bearing that out.

Edited March 19, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[PlasticCraic]

On 3/18/2019 at 12:27 AM, broche said:

Gitz and BCR don't have much better placing than IJ.  Best destruction should still be bonesplitterz, but they're not much played.

I think so too, it's an old book but still probably the best we have imo.  At SAGT at the weekend, I was mixing it with FEC, Skaven and Hagg Nar up on the higher tables, and felt like I was competing on a level footing or close to it.  I have ran all Destruction factions competitively and that is definitely not always the case.

Bonesplitterz have some truly bent rules.  The opening fusillade from the Kunnin Rukk is even worse than before, since GW did not prevent the Savage Big Boss CA from stacking.  We have free summoning of death star units in the Bonegrinz clan (dicey of course, but it can steal you a tight game).  We can go 1-drop, which most armies cannot.  Our best ability (burst damage from the arrows) does not trigger on unmodified 6s, and we have access to positive modifiers (Brutal Beast Spirits) and rerolls (Maniak Weirdnob).  Our abilities are not wholly within, so our large units can still trail back to buffing heroes (crucially this means you can cast key spells out of unbind range).

There are bad matchups, as there should be for any extreme build like this, but overall the "oldness" of the book has as many advantages as drawbacks, and some of the positive interactions with new rules seem to have been overlooked in AOS 2.

Honestly I made a couple of mistakes at SAGT, which will deservedly be punished by on-meta armies on top tables, but it was me letting down the Bonesplitterz, not the army letting me down.

Bringing this back on topic - I can tell you I have had to work so, so hard and execute perfectly to achieve similar results with Ironjawz, and often still fall short.  The issue I have with the current power creep is that the percentage of games that are over before they really begin is increasing exponentially.  DOK were only 5% of the meta, LON say 10% or whatever.  So when those two were out on their own, you were facing them maybe once per event with Ironjawz.

Now that the winner's circle has been expanded, you can expect a large and growing proportion of your games to be a waste of time.  It's not so much the gap between the Haves and Have-Nots, that was already a gaping void.  It's more the ratio of the Haves to Have-Nots which becomes debilitating and demoralising.

Edited March 19, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[Andrew G]

2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's true that most of the people running GG are using novelty / fluff lists.  But why is that?  Because the filth chasers have evaluated the alternatives, and deemed that their best and easiest chance of winning most of their games is by running something different.  And the results are bearing that out.

2

Ding, Ding, Ding.

I had the same conversation about my Gorefist list recently. Sure, I can take games off pretty much any of the top lists consistently, and I've won some local tournaments against really tough fields (beat two LON 60 grimgast lists in the tourney I won. Both the guys placed in the top 20 at LVO w/ the same list).

But.... most Idoneth eel lists are just a strictly better version of the Gorefist I'm running. So, most of the tourney guys who like the playstyle of various IJ lists move onto better alternatives in other factions, leaving IJ with mostly fluff players, or crazies like me who enjoy beating people with "bad" armies.  This is reflected in the tourney stats as well, IMO IJ  is an easy 3 to 4  win army, but it seems like most people struggle to even go positive with them. 

The good news in all this is that I think it's reasonable to expect a points drop on the Mawkrusher, Big G, and probably our battalions in the next GHB. Holding out for the book, some short-range shooting/mw options would be a great addition to the army without stepping on any other faction's identity.