AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[tripchimeras]

I honestly think warclans is in a great place as things stand.  Minimal 10pt increases mostly, which in comparison to other armies is really not that bad.  Even the increases on mawkrushas are pretty good for us given how much better they are now.  I think the 5 man battleline for ardboyz is great.  While being limited to 15 may seem bad, coherency combined with 1inch reach was going to naturally limit how big you wanted those units (and with the loss of batalions the big blocks feel not as great now anyways).  I think with the 25 pt swing between ardboyz and brutes you really do have to consider coherency, brutes have access to 2 inch reach, so 10-15 brutes are much easier to manage around the board despite the bigger base sizes.  I think while 15 ardboyz statistically are better then 10 brutes I think in practice and taking into account things coherency and reinforcement limits, brutes have a place.  I just think overall our flexibility and options feel like if anything they have increased, and I think with all of our charge bonuses and movement shenanigans we are really well positioned to counter the influx of stand and shoot based play.  Don't know if I'd call us one of the big winners so far, but definitely doesn't feel like we are losers.  Feels like we possibly got a modest upgrade for the edition taking everything into consideration. But time will tell, and if we are getting a new book next month, obviously big question is will it only be changing up the kruelboys or will everything be getting changed.

[Malakree]

9 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

I think with the 25 pt swing between ardboyz and brutes you really do have to consider coherency, brutes have access to 2 inch reach, so 10-15 brutes are much easier to manage around the board despite the bigger base sizes.  I think while 15 ardboyz statistically are better then 10 brutes I think in practice and taking into account things coherency and reinforcement limits, brutes have a place.

If you do the math Brute units with 2" reach weapons are just bad. They are Ardboys with 1 extra attack. I'll do the run down again.

• 15 Ardboys are 285 points to 10 Brutes at 300,
• Ardboys require 2 reinforcements while Brutes only need 1.

You're essentially paying 15 points for 1 reinforcement slot.

• Brutes have 3 wounds each, 10 of them is 30.
• Ardboys have 2 wounds each so 15 is 30.
• Both have a 4+ save.
• Ardboys get 2 Shields per 5. That's 6 shields at 15 which equates to ~2 extra wounds.

Ardboys have about 62 effective wounds. Brutes have 60 effective wounds.

• Ardboys have bravery 8 due to the banner.
• Brutes have bravery 6.
• Ardboys have a 3" -1 bravery aura around their glyphs.
• Ardboys get +2 to charge.

At 6 wounds Ardboys are on bravery 6 and Brutes are on bravery 5. It takes 8 wounds to go through before Brutes and Ardboys have the same bravery rolls.

• Ardboys get 32 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1
• Dual Choppa Brutes get 28 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1
• 2h Brutes get 21 attacks at 2"/3+/3+/-1/1
• All Brutes get 10 attacks at 2"/4+/3+/-1/2 
• I ignored the boss choppa/Klaw question because it's so tiny it doesn't matter.
• Brutes get +1 hit against 4+ wounds

On average you should get a boss, 2 gore choppa and 4/5 dual choppa brutes in because of their base size. This compares to a boss, 2 gorechoppa and 7 2h brutes.

For the Brutes that puts ~20 attacks from normal brutes as your reasonable number. Giving this graph

Spoiler

So you're looking at

• ~16 wo/wo
• ~28 wo/w
• ~21 w/wo
• ~36 w/w

 

Comparatively for Ardboys the smaller base size means you should be getting ~12 including the boss into melee range. (Personally I'd be expecting to get 14/15 into range but that requires some real obnoxious unit formation) That's 26 attacks.

Spoiler

• ~12 wo
• ~24 w

So against opponents with no save (the better situation for brutes) you're looking around 4 extra damage without the +1 to hit and around 10 if you do have it.

Brutes vs Ardboys Conclusion

Brutes have a slightly higher damage output normally which increases to a sizable amount if the target has 4+ wounds. Brutes are also slower, more expensive, have less effective wounds, less objective presence and are more vulnerable to battleshock.

Brutes are better in damage but are significantly worse in every other way.

GG's

• 40 points more expensive
• Over double the speed
• Count for 2 models on objectives
• Significantly more resilient against battleshock, they have to take 10 wounds to even have to take one.
• Expected 4 in combat. (I did a post on the stupid as formation on the board that gives you 6 pretty reliably but again it's obnoxious).
• Impact hits ~2 mortals on the charge
• 17 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1 and 16 attacks at 1"/4+/4+/-/1
• +1 to hit/wound on the secondary attacks if they charged.

Spoiler

• ~12 wo/wo
• ~24 wo/w
• ~15 w/wo
• ~30 w/w

So gg's are really close in damage to Brutes especially considering that this is only 4 of them.

Overall

As it was a while ago, if you want infantry to stand and hold you take Ardboys. If you want a hammer you take gg's. The only reason to take brutes anymore is if you need the reinforcement slot, which is admittedly something which might come up if you want to go 6/6 ggs and 10/10 brutes.

[Ganigumo]

Fair enough but I think you're underestimating how often you'll actually be able to get most of a unit of 'ardboyz into combat. I know you "can" get a unit of 10 in and attacking, but if the enemy unit isn't in a similar formation there's gonna be holes where you can't attack, getting 12-14 into combat is a bit of a pipe dream imo.

I still think ardboyz are good, but these very specific formations to maximize units fighting are also vulnerable to irregularities.

[NauticalSoup]

As Malakree has outlined in detail, the problem is that any situation where Ardboys aren't optimal GGs are going to be more useful than Brutes. Between them Ardboys and GG cover the spectrum of needs, Brutes just don't have a useful niche. Exactly like when the book first launched really.

[ShaneHobbes]

Have we talked about a Megaboss on Maw Krusha with Arcane Tome, casting Flaming Weapon on himself, and receiving the Warchanter +1 damage buff?

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Fair enough but I think you're underestimating how often you'll actually be able to get most of a unit of 'ardboyz into combat. I know you "can" get a unit of 10 in and attacking, but if the enemy unit isn't in a similar formation there's gonna be holes where you can't attack, getting 12-14 into combat is a bit of a pipe dream imo.

On ardboy bases it's not difficult just really fiddly. It's brute base size where it becomes realistically impossible.

If the enemy forms any sort of line I can get 90%+ of ardboys in melee range. It's really not as hard or complicated as people think.

[whispersofblood]

53 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Have we talked about a Megaboss on Maw Krusha with Arcane Tome, casting Flaming Weapon on himself, and receiving the Warchanter +1 damage buff?

And... Live to Fight 

[tripchimeras]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

On ardboy bases it's not difficult just really fiddly. It's brute base size where it becomes realistically impossible.

If the enemy forms any sort of line I can get 90%+ of ardboys in melee range. It's really not as hard or complicated as people think.

Look I do think Ardboyz have an advantage over brutes, but I think there are situations brutes make more sense.  I think with the reinforcement quandary, as you agreed, there is a place for brutes.  That's all I'm saying.  I said from outset statistically ardboys are better, and your very helpful stats illustrate that well. 

However, I do think you are exaggerating how easy it will be to get optimal ardboy coverage in combat, and not because of how fiddly it is (I agree its pretty strait forward).  That formation allows basically no room for coherency issues and requires convenient unit spread from opponent/good charge.  There are going to be armies that can pick out specific models that will prevent you from using that formation.  SoB and ObR come to mind, but I think there are 1 or 2 other books that allow for picking out specific models too.  And in these situation's its going to be pretty risky to lay out your boyz like that.  I admit its an edge case, but when the differences are not that great, I feel like its relevant. 

I 100% agree that jacks of all trade models like Brutes are always in a tight spot, and its hard to justify them over GG or AB in any one specific situation.  But that's the thing with Brutes they are worse then GG as hammer and worse then AB as infantry, but they can aren't that much worse then either.  So they have some flexibility and utility that doesn't come at a super high efficiency loss.  I think movement is honestly the biggest strike against them, but depending on the meta and the list I can see uses.

Now I say all of this, and will I take them myself?  Maybe??  Honestly, probably not haha, but that is partially my personal playstyle and I still think they have their place.  It just depends on what the rest of your list looks like. You are going to take ardboyz and GG more often, but I think there are lists that are better with  brutes and you will still see them occasionally in competitive play.  So I don't think they've been rendered unusable at all.  They are worse then they were, but better then they where they started in current army book.

[Malakree]

37 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

That formation allows basically no room for coherency issues and requires convenient unit spread from opponent/good charge.  There are going to be armies that can pick out specific models that will prevent you from using that formation.  SoB and ObR come to mind, but I think there are 1 or 2 other books that allow for picking out specific models too. 

Uh in the setup I'm talking about they would have to be able to remove 2 models to cause an issue and it has plenty of give to get back into coherency easily?

My current guess is that the points included are the ones which will be in the new warclans book not for our current units. Until that book comes out brutes are so niche it's unreal. 

[Bruteforce]

So if we're taking brutes in a unit of 5 should we take

• 1xgore choppa,
• 1xboss choppa,
• 3x2h? 

or

• 1x dual wield and 2x2h?

[Malakree]

36 minutes ago, Bruteforce said:

So if we're taking brutes in a unit of 5 should we take

• 1xgore choppa,
• 1xboss choppa,
• 3x2h? 

or

• 1x dual wield and 2x2h?

You can't take split weapons. The whole squad has the same weapon choice.

Oh and it should be dual wield.

[Bruteforce]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

You can't take split weapons. The whole squad has the same weapon choice.

Oh and it should be dual wield.

Ah okay i read the warscroll again

Quote

The unit is armed with one of the following weapon options: Pair of Brute Choppas; or Jagged Gore-hacka

So dual wield even with the new unit coherency rule?

Edited June 19, 2021 by Bruteforce

[Malakree]

21 minutes ago, Bruteforce said:

So dual wield even with the new unit coherency rule?

The new rules only apply to units with 6+ models.

[brattenbergus]

Do we still think that majority of tournaments will be held at 2000p? Or 1500p as they included certain rules for building your lists at 1500p in the rule book?

[claret_jim]

4 hours ago, brattenbergus said:

Do we still think that majority of tournaments will be held at 2000p? Or 1500p as they included certain rules for building your lists at 1500p in the rule book?

Think the battleplans within GHB 2021 are for 1000 or 2000 point games.

I still think tournament's will be at 2000 points, especially after the points upgrade.

[5kaven5lave]

Do we think Ardboys in 10s are gonna be ok or is it 15s or bust?

Wanna try out 2xMBoMK, Warchanter and a Weirdnob, 3x10 Ardboys and 3 Gruntas for 1970. 

[DerZauberer]

Played a game this weekend with a fairly typical IJ list against Slaanesh and with the new Command Abilities IJ seem powerful.

AoS3.0 got a nice mindgame going with when to activate redeploy  and all-out-defence as our opponent to evade smahing and bashing.

Interesstingly we still drain CP fast, like really fast. In Turn 2 going first made my options with 2 CP (as i had to go finest hour on MKMB) very limiting.

Biggest Winner for me is the Maw-krusha Boss, he gets absurdly tanky with all-out-defence/finest hour/mysticshield and defensive artifacts.

But teleporting 10man Ardboy units which can issues commands to themselves like reroll charges or all-out-attack was crazy good too.

On the Topic of MKMB: I love to give him all-out-defence or mystic shield for the 2+ save. But would you consider Sunblessed Armour (Ironsunz -1 rend) or the new 5+ Wardsave generic artifact? I've run with Ironsunz, got my Footboss the Sunblessed Armour and my MKMB the wardsave and barely needed the wardsave. Maybe its better to get a second spell from the spell lore instead of the additional artifact with the battalion?

Btw: The new boardsize makes it just great going second as ironjawz, especially ironsunz - half of my army was in combat going second in turn 1 allthough my opponent was very carefully. I strongly believe ironjwaz should prefer the addional enhancements and CP instead of lower drop numbers and first turn most of the time.

Your thoughts?

[DerZauberer]

16 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Do we think Ardboys in 10s are gonna be ok or is it 15s or bust?

Wanna try out 2xMBoMK, Warchanter and a Weirdnob, 3x10 Ardboys and 3 Gruntas for 1970. 

Imo ardboys are very difficult to use even at 10. New coherency rules and 1" range with the basesize made it hard to get more then 6 into combat. I loved my 5 man Brute squads the one game of AoS3.0 with all-out-attack, waaagh and violent fury, but this can be very subjective.

Edited June 22, 2021 by DerZauberer

[Rachmani]

Have we heard anything about new Ardboys?

Between brutes & GG‘s, and everything Kruleboys the old ardboys stick out like sour thumbs.

[NauticalSoup]

2 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Have we heard anything about new Ardboys?

Between brutes & GG‘s, and everything Kruleboys the old ardboys stick out like sour thumbs.

Wouldn't hold your breath. Now that GW has a 100% Sigmar range in Warclans there probably won't be any more other Warclans releases besides one-shot stuff like warbands. Besides that the Ardboy entire fluff was written around the Black Orc model - I think they'd be more likely to be squatted than get a new model.

[Rachmani]

I sadly believe that as well. But then again, either is fine. 
What I personally can’t stand are „mandatory“ units with bad sculpts.

[NauticalSoup]

1 minute ago, Rachmani said:

I sadly believe that as well. But then again, either is fine. 
What I personally can’t stand are „mandatory“ units with bad sculpts.

Gonna have to disagree with you there, the kit shows its age certainly but black orcs were and always will a great sculpt. I own 40 of the things and would never have touched IJ without them. The problem, if there is one, is just that the rest of the IJ range went with a significantly different aesthetic while trying to grandfather in the black orcs. 

And squatting Ardboys will hardly make brutes any less trash, although it will make IJ an even more anemic faction than it already is. Nothing stops you from bringing nothing but brutes today after all (except their aforementioned badness).

So here's to the 1000 year iron reign of the Ardboys, may it last far, far into the future

[Backbreaker]

I played my first game of this brand new edition. It was amazing, I love the game even more now!

 

Mighty destroyer, despite being only once per turn is even better now. Charging/moving/fighting outside of phase means our opponent cannot activate CA like +1 save or redeployment.

 

Betwen mad as hell (which I forgot during my game) and redeployment and mighty destroyer, our mobility is really good.

 

Shooting and magic are as strong as before. or maybe better. So I don't see myself not playing Ironsunz.

 

The mawkrusha was already our best unit. I don't want to go that road but for those who want to win, double cabbage sound like the way to go.

[Voand]

Since it got out SCE have an immediate points adjustment with their tome and it's coming in July I unfortunately feel like any and all theory crafting right now is just a useless exercise for fun, things are going to be shaken up very soon.

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

The mawkrusha was already our best unit. I don't want to go that road but for those who want to win, double cabbage sound like the way to go.

Sorry did you say tripple cabbage, right you are! Just need to finish painting the third and jobs a good 'un.

Need to get it done before july 10th so I can use it at thwg 1 day event!!!