AoS 2 and what it means for Destruction

[svnvaldez]

1 hour ago, broche said:

Destruction was highly competitive between GHB 2016 and 2017. Boneplitterz remained Mid T1 for 2017. With 2018 adjustment they should be back on top (especially if Allies can use command ability)

This is so important to remember for us Destro players. I had a hefty win streak under GH1... while not game breaking like Vwing, the StoneRukks pure power was bonkers.

We got hit hard under GH2 but it wasn’t so much a destro nerf but a mixed list nerf (mixed list disappeared other than mixed order and that’s because they overlooked the frostie). What we suffer from is a lack of battletomes, our only “current” battletome is Bonespliterz which is Mid T1 and can still be solid even without Krukk.

Give it a year and destro will be fine just like death is now.

[novakai]

TBH I think Ironjawz and Bonesplitter will be alright in the next edition, I predict pure BCR armies may still suffer and are gong to be used more as allies or in mixed Destruction list.

As much as I know people want more mixed soup battletome like Greenskinz/Grot or Gutbuster I get the feeling the next Destruction ones are going to be Moonclan, Ironjawz v2, and then a new army one of maybe Grotbag scuttlers. 

I would have had fate in Greenskinz battletome in the future if they had done a FF on them.

[broche]

i don't know BCR that much, but depending on point drop i think the 6 mortal mamoth might become really good. 

in 2017 they suffered a lot from having low model count and most scenario are most model. 

[svnvaldez]

I don't rate Thundertusks that highly. They only have a 4+ save and once they take 3 wounds they dish out d6 and 5 wounds d3. They have to be taken in groups of 3 or 4 Huskards so you can reliably get their healing off and back to a straight six mortals.

I could maybe see spamming the max coming back (Heat 1 winner 2016 had 1 stonehorn, 3 tundertusks, 20x2 moonclan, 3 fanatics, and 1 shaman) if they dropped in points significantly and you could still fit the rest of your army in.

[Imperial]

5 minutes ago, broche said:

i don't know BCR that much, but depending on point drop i think the 6 mortal mamoth might become really good. 

Good for hero killing? Yes. When we speak about BCR it's make just wow effect! But... when we play, we can see 30 ardboyz or something with same wound/point cost on battlefield for same point with huskard or near with it. How many time i need roll 2+ for kill unit of 30 ardboyz w/o shield? Ouh! 10 times w/o fail! And.... BINGO! They will come and kill huskard. 

[Skabnoze]

21 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Good for hero killing? Yes. When we speak about BCR it's make just wow effect! But... when we play, we can see 30 ardboyz or something with same wound/point cost on battlefield for same point with huskard or near with it. How many time i need roll 2+ for kill unit of 30 ardboyz w/o shield? Ouh! 10 times w/o fail! And.... BINGO! They will come and kill huskard. 

Maybe you should stop trying to pick fights with other Destruction comrades - especially ones that are angry berserker orcs who specialize in killing big monsters?

Aren't there any elves or humans to go smash instead?  ?

[Imperial]

1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

Maybe you should stop trying to pick fights with other Destruction comrades - especially ones that are angry berserker orcs who specialize in killing big monsters?

Aren't there any elves or humans to go smash instead?

In my town only i playing destruction! 30 tzaangors = 60 wounds with same points. Same problem

[heywoah_twitch]

For destruction moving forward, I'm concerned that command points make Gordrakk just the ideal starting point for most armies, even making it worth dropping allegiance for him. Bonesplitterz can probably hang on their own (but mixed rukk is always a danger depending on points) and Ironjawz are shaping up to be the swingy 1-2 punch boxer they should've always been, but beastclaw seems poised to remain shelf-tier.

If they aren't buffing warscrolls (and the faction focus implied that they were not), then you just about can't make the behemoths cheap enough for the army to be good. Even if you go crazy with reductions - like you make stonehorns cost magmadroth prices like 240pts or whatever, then people will just steal 3 for mixed destruction since bcr allegiance kit is garbage.

I was holding on that we'd get re-written fixed version of allegiance kit in ghb18 which could solve everything, but then they specifically mentioned that this was not happening in the last update (where they listed every army getting this). I've been cautiously tempering every tidbit of bad news leading up to 2.0 and GHB18, but it's getting pretty hard to hope for a surprise 11th hour save, especially since everyone else is getting varying degrees of massively buffed, while we already started at the bottom.

I mean the best player they could find for the focus interview was a community team guy who picked the army up a month ago for a showcase game - not exactly a ringing endorsement for internal support at GW.

tldr: I have some concerns

[PlasticCraic]

I think what I'm finding hardest to accept is the lack of support in terms of Allegiance Abilities.  We got such a wafer thin sliver of support in GH17 (only Ironjawz, where every other GA got at least 3…including some factions that are just as minor if not moreso than Gutbusters, Moonclan, Gitmob and Greenskinz, and some factions the went on to get books).

Even then the Ironjawz update felt a bit weak compared to the updated Battletomes that Khorne and Stormcast got. 

Personally I didn’t actually mind the nerf to GA Destruction abilities…"proper" Allegiances should have the best toys.  My issue was that they took away what we had, and replaced it with nothing. 

I was sure at the time it meant books would be incoming…here we are an edition down the track, and still nothing.  So there really was no reason not to give Allegiance Abilities out in GH17.

I would be astonished if Moonclan didn’t get a book in the next few months but I’m not sure 1 book and 1 set of Allegiance Abilities in 3 years would be enough.

I’m still reeling with confusion that they haven’t taken the quick win by giving Allegiance Abilities to Gutbusters in GH18 for example.

TL:DR They put in place an excellent structure for providing ongoing updates with minimal resources through the Allegiance Abilities, and systematically failed to use it for Destruction (and only Destruction).

[PlasticCraic]

@Ollie Grimwood and @svnvaldez you both seem to be much better at dealing with this than I am, what is your secret? 

Serious question, you guys both do a great job (much better than I do) of keeping your chin up in the face of adversity, both on here and on Twitter!

I don't want to be grumpy about this, I want to be excited.  What would you suggest to keep my AOS energy up?

[svnvaldez]

14 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

So there really was no reason not to give Allegiance Abilities out in GH17.

There was zero and I mean zero reason that Gutbusters and Grots didn't get Allegiance Abilities in GH17 unless GW sincerely believed the Destro LoN style battletome was going to be released prior to GH18. I truly believe something must have happened  (#hordemeta #Vwing #Changehost #Plaguetouch #Firestormrage #MPrage cough cough) and they moved there production plans up 6 to 9 months. I think the reason you didn't see Deathrattle in GH17 is they knew LoN was coming. I think the reason you did see Nighthaught and Soulblight is because they didn't expect them to be released till after GH18. I even had a buddy from the UK (grain of salt) tell me that LoN was announced sooner than planned because of the MP rage that came when the count down hit zero and no models/rules/AoS2.0  were revealed. I think that backlash led to GW randomly throwing Soulblight in LoN (It honestly doesn't fit in that book) and releasing LoN, Nighthaught and AoS 2.0.  

With those moves Death just became the first completed GA. Every model in the range has rules that can be found in a hardback battletome.

26 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

@Ollie Grimwood and @svnvaldez you both seem to be much better at dealing with this than I am, what is your secret? 

 Serious question, you guys both do a great job (much better than I do) of keeping your chin up in the face of adversity, both on here and on Twitter!

 I don't want to be grumpy about this, I want to be excited.  What would you suggest to keep my AOS energy up?

My secret is I just moved through the 5 stages of grief faster than you probably have.

1: Denial - I could not believe how hard they hit my old list.  When I pointed out my version of the StoneRukk it came in at 2420.  They systematically nerfed every part of my list. 420 over in points, fanatics now came in 3s, rampaging destroyer nerf, bellowing tyrant nerf, unit size on arrow boyz decreased and battlebrew nerf. A lot of that was justified and I even thought I could still run a slimmed down version of the Stonerukk (2x FL, 1 Shaman, 1 Boss, 10x3 Sav, 30 Arrowz, Krukk @ 2000) but then the FAQ came a few days later and the Stonehorn nerf dropped. I knew it was over... So I looked at what was left, Arrowboyz were now battleline and had access to +2 to hit in the form of damned and a spell. So I got on ebay and flushed out my Arrowboyz from 40 to 120.

2: Anger - When Nicky Myland revealed the GW team approached him at B&G to ask for his input on how to "fix" Bonesplitterz I knew GW recognized they had F###ed it up.  I also knew that painting a 1 drop Krukk would be a waste of time and money since it would only be good for one round of GH. Krukk is also the least fun I have had playing AoS (Have fun this weekend with your 1 drop Krukk and best of luck @PlasticCraic). Was pretty mad there for a bit.

3: Bargaining -  I knew I was a decent player and had scored a lot of ITC points with the StoneRukk and had an outside shot at #1 ITC player for the year if I did well at LVO. So I sucked it up, learned to play to Krukk (It is not as auto win as people think), and painted the list to the best of ability (I keep all my models on my shelf and want every model I paint to be up to my personal standard - far from winning awards but something I am proud of because it's the best I can do).  Krukk got me a 5-2 record and 16th at LVO. That was enough to pick up year end ITC #1 Destro, #1 Bonesplitterz, #1 Club (along with the rest of We Slay Dragons), and #3 ITC player. All in All very happy with the year and the second half switch to Krukk - It is a big bonus getting to look at the trophies!.

4: Depression - I literally have played 1 game since LVO. I have not enjoyed a game of Warhammer since the switch to GH17.

5: Acceptance - AoS is a far better game than WFB both rules wise and people wise. I have been playing WFB since I was 13. Towards the end of 8th ed the tournament scene in Cali was dominated by neck beard, comp loving, sports upvoting for your club and down voting everyone else, and bias paint scoring. All those guys jumped to 9th age /KoW and for the most part AoS has stayed a fun and pure game in my area. AoS is great and GW is great (especially new GW who recognizes player problems and has been quick to fix them - other than the lack of Destro support!). And really... how amazing are the models coming out! While I wait out the time till Destro is both fun and good again I have been painting, listening to podcasts, and following hobby/results on twitter. I have a dream to paint and base at least one of every unit from the GA Destro and battletomes. I'm about 30% of the way there. I also have enjoyed the new battletomes - while I do not play DoK I have wrote some lists with them and followed their placings seeing what is good and what is bad. I am super excited for AoS 2.0. I know somewhere in the greater Destro GA we are going to have a few fun and good builds (Ironsunz + Gordrakk I'm looking at you). 

So @PlasticCraic considering just wrote a post that took me 30 mins to vent I am probably not dealing with the Destro neglect as well as you may think - but I have been trying to focus on the good stuff and stay positive. 

PS. As long as they never bring back Animosity we will always be better then we were!

[PlasticCraic]

Haha thanks for that @svnvaldez, it was a good read and exactly what I was hoping for!  Definitely helped.

And congratulations on the ITC results, they are excellent achievements.  Well done!

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

@svnvaldez here here lad. And yes, I pray that Animosity never sees the light of day again 

[blueshirtman]

I wish I played when BCR were good, I started post nerfs :(  I wonder how big the points drop are going to be and for what units, I hope for 40-50pts on thundertusks, because those are the biggies I got. No idea what am going to do if only stonehorns or yethis get the BCR points drop.

[PlasticCraic]

I'd be expecting 60 points on Thudertusks, 80 points on Stonehorns.  That's my best guess.

Summoning armies are typically getting a couple of hundred points leeway, and GW must be aware that virtually all armies (certainly all Battletome armies) are currently ahead of BCR. 

And they did state the discount would be substantial.  So to keep pace with them, and potentially catch up a bit, I'd be expecting at least 200+ points spread across 3 or 4 Behemoths.

Maybe I'm more of an optimist than I thought!

If Stonehorns were the big winners - could you perform a head transplant?  I think from memory the tails are different too, but I can't see anybody caring about that.

[Ollie Grimwood]

@PlasticCraic

mainly it’s down to sticking Orruk heads on stuff 

never wait for GW to provide when you can do it yourself. 

I also apply what 30 years of 40K and not collecting Space Marines has taught me. Just ignore the poster boys when you take out the Stormcast the releases don’t look so bad. 

I am somewhat NAAC though which makes things a lot easier as although we’ve not had a great deal what we’ve have has shown depth and breadth to Orruks and Grots that exceeds even that of the original WFRP.  When releases are low or we’ve been stiffed a bit rules wise it’s always a good time to embrace a bit of narrative. 

I think the key for me is to get an aspect of he hobby you really enjoy that doesn’t rely on GWs release schedule for models or rules as they are somewhat capricious  

But mainly sticking Orruk heads on things  

When all else fails look at a Mawkrusha head on and marvel at its majesty and  consider 

And WAAAGH all over Twitter. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

2 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

I wish I played when BCR were good, I started post nerfs I wonder how big the points drop are going to be and for what units, I hope for 40-50pts on thundertusks, because those are the biggies I got. No idea what am going to do if only stonehorns or yethis get the BCR points drop.

Well hopefully they will get pointed based on the Matchplay scenarios rather than on people bitching about their ability to kill flashy stuff.  BCR have excellent warscrolls it’s really all down to points balancing with them. 

[PlasticCraic]

Awesome post that @Ollie Grimwood, much appreciated!

[blueshirtman]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

If Stonehorns were the big winners - could you perform a head transplant?  I think from memory the tails are different too, but I can't see anybody caring about that.

The person who sold the models to me, sold the stonehorns heads to someone else. 

 

I wonder how much the magic expansionis going to help too. Maybe there are some cool interaction, like spell ability giving stuff or stuff that lets people heal or summon stuff, without being wizard.

[Skabnoze]

7 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

The person who sold the models to me, sold the stonehorns heads to someone else. 

I am pretty certain that you can get just the bits for the heads on ebay for a decent price.  I shop bits on ebay a fair amount of the time.

[novakai]

This gave me a good chuckle when I checked reddit today

 

8 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

 

never wait for GW to provide when you can do it yourself. 

I also apply what 30 years of 40K and not collecting Space Marines has taught me. Just ignore the poster boys when you take out the Stormcast the releases don’t look so bad. 

I am somewhat NAAC though which makes things a lot easier as although we’ve not had a great deal what we’ve have has shown depth and breadth to Orruks and Grots that exceeds even that of the original WFRP.  When releases are low or we’ve been stiffed a bit rules wise it’s always a good time to embrace a bit of narrative. 

I think the key for me is to get an aspect of he hobby you really enjoy that doesn’t rely on GWs release schedule for models or rules as they are somewhat capricious  

But mainly sticking Orruk heads on things  

When all else fails look at a Mawkrusha head on and marvel at its majesty and  consider 

 

Agree, for me the lack of releases mean I can go easy on my wallet and buy stuff when it matters.

Also your Warboss look like an updated Grimgor

[amysrevenge]

I like the ability for 6 Maneaters allied to my Gutbusters, if nothing else.  It's not often that I've brushed up against the ally limit (I find not getting allegiance benefits to be self-limiting), but I definitely did with 220pt Maneaters.

[Soup Dragon]

14 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

I wish I played when BCR were good, I started post nerfs I wonder how big the points drop are going to be and for what units, I hope for 40-50pts on thundertusks, because those are the biggies I got. No idea what am going to do if only stonehorns or yethis get the BCR points drop.

Pure BCR were never really good. The allegiance abilities and artefacts are just too weak. Their strength lay in the Monster/Rukk combo lists where there was access to better stuff. So don't pine for the old days too much.

 

13 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I'd be expecting 60 points on Thudertusks, 80 points on Stonehorns.  That's my best guess.

Summoning armies are typically getting a couple of hundred points leeway, and GW must be aware that virtually all armies (certainly all Battletome armies) are currently ahead of BCR. 

And they did state the discount would be substantial.  So to keep pace with them, and potentially catch up a bit, I'd be expecting at least 200+ points spread across 3 or 4 Behemoths.

Making the Monsters cheaper is fine so long as they raise the limit on behemoths for BCR from 4 to 5/6. Otherwise it just means more unimpressive Mournfang in the list. Yes I know I can take more wizards or allied chaff, but just making a point. BCR are all about the monsters, and being allowed to take more is more thematic.

[Skabnoze]

6 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said:

Making the Monsters cheaper is fine so long as they raise the limit on behemoths for BCR from 4 to 5/6. Otherwise it just means more unimpressive Mournfang in the list. Yes I know I can take more wizards or allied chaff, but just making a point. BCR are all about the monsters, and being allowed to take more is more thematic.

I think it would be cool if there was a couple allegiances in the game that explored the concept of bending the army composition rules in the GHB.  That said, I would want these to be developed very sparingly and carefully.  Those are good composition rules and they very much help to prevent some negative play experiences and force choices in list-building.  You could potentially get silly if you tweaked some of them such as Hero restrictions or Artillery without also having an army designed specifically to use those rules.

But I could very much see an army like Beastclaw Raiders getting an extra 1-2 behemoths allowed.  That said, Mournfang are meant to be a big part of the army and if there is an issue specifically with Mournfang Cavalry then that unit should be tweaked.  I would not be surprised to see that happen when/if they rewrite the army battletome.

But I have been thinking for a while about what certain allegiances would look like if they were expanded to be a full playable faction rather than just an ally allegiance and some of them run into issues with the army composition.  Take Ale Guzzler Gargants for example.  Imagine if they expanded that into a fully playable army of Giants!  I would be all over that as an army - but it simply does not work if they cannot get around the restriction on Behemoths.  Making non-behemoth additions to the army sort of kills the concept of an army of Giants. 

Interestingly enough, Giants were once listed as regiments in the 5th edition Orcs & Goblins book - so it was fully possible to run an army of all Giants plus an Orc or Goblin hero.  They cost 200 points at the time, so you could run 9 of them and then have 200 points left for a General.  I played it once by using the 2 Giants I owned, borrowing a couple more, and then proxying some other large monsters as giants.  It was hilarious, absolutely awful, and simply fantastic all at the same time.  I would love to be able to play an army like that again - even if it is super niche and horribly ineffective.

[Lanoss]

Any word on GHB18 point leaks?