GeneralZero Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 31 minutes ago, Jamopower said: Especially as I'm playing mostly against armies that don't have wizards, so pushing in those powerful spells just to benefit myself would feel bit rude. Why? taking something new is welcome for me. I like some spicy surprise and trying to take the challenge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: Why? taking something new is welcome for me. I like some spicy surprise and trying to take the challenge! Of course, if both players will benefit, why not, but especially with the endless spells, that look to be designed so that the Wizards from both armies can tamper with them, it doesn't feel very fair if there are wizards only on one side of the table. There is already more stuff in the game, for the limited time we have available, to keep us interested. That's also one of the strengths of AoS, you don't have to include everything into your games if you don't want to. For my taste, there is already bit too much "toppings" in the game. I don't think extra artefacts, spells or even the command points, will make the game any better than what it is now. I'm fine with the artefacts and spells we already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, Jamopower said: it doesn't feel very fair if there are wizards only on one side of the table I don't agree. Magic is just a tool. And it can be fun and challenging to fight against magic with some other things. If you feel that bad, just tell your opponents that you'll grab a wizzard so he have a chance to prepare a counter strategy even without magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furuzzolo Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 If the "battletome+allegiance gh17" countdown is true we should be pretty close to an endline for the preview. Missing faction focus: Brayherds Beastclaw raiders Bonesplitterz Darkilng coven Dispossessed Idoneth deepkin Wanderers Maybe some GrotUnited faction focus? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I'd be really surprised to see all of them in faction focus... BTW, where is the big boy in this list : Stormcast ? (and eventually Nighthaunt) My guess: the last focus will be the new toy. SCE. (and NH just before) EDIT: oups my bad, already done. But with so few aspect within the new rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, GeneralZero said: I don't agree. Magic is just a tool. And it can be fun and challenging to fight against magic with some other things. If you feel that bad, just tell your opponents that you'll grab a wizzard so he have a chance to prepare a counter strategy even without magic. In a normal game yes, but with an expansion that focuses on all sorts of wonders for wizards, the content should be available for both parties. Especially as GW has said themselves that it's not a very fair expansion for Khorne and other non-spellcasters. It can make an interesting special scenarios, but running them all the time, the charm is lost quite soon I fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderPirate Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I'm still really excited about the new edition, and every little bit of new info just fills me with more confidence. As I see it the nerf to mystical shield was part of a balancing act to prevent shooting being OP, but still making it relevant. By making it harder to take out characters, shooting may have needed a bit of a bump. By reducing access to silly armour saves, it makes it more worthwhile to pile on the shots at a big scary unit in the hope of knocking a few off before they get to you. As far as magic being one-sided in the new edition... I understand where that worry is coming from. I play a non-shooty army and have had some frustrating experiences against shooting-heavy armies where it's felt like I had no option but to just slowly remove my models from the board. So I understand the worry. BUT I think the toolkit to respond to them is big enough now that it shouldn't be an issue. We've got longer dispel ranges, most armies have some access to countermagic, even if they don't have their own wizards. Even the new endless predatory spells (purple sun, Taz, etc.) can be controlled by the other player if they're going second in that battle round. Banishment in particular seems to be causing some consternation, but I don't really get it. It provides a defence against some of the more problematic alpha-strike style armies. It's quite a short-range spell, so you have to already be in their grill for it to go off. They can only cast it once per turn, so they can't just bounce your entire army. And you know they have it, so you can play around it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigwarus Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Gotrek said: We physically can't *know* if it needs fixing until we see it in full context. We can make half cocked guesses and assumptions but to truly *know* we need the full rules. It may very well need to be FAQ'd into uselessness (RIP grundstok thunderers) or it may be perfectly fine as it is or it may be oppressive in 2 or 3 skew builds and meh in most builds so it just needs a little tweaking instead of a ban (like, off the top of my head, "set up the unit anywhere on the table that is wholly within 24" of its previous location and 3" away from any other models". No more dropping them into a tiny forgotten corner but still able to put them out of position) No change ever is. As it stands i think most units will see little change between the 2 versions. Some will suffer more than others (units that could already reroll saves or units with a 5+ or 6+ natural save), but i think overall its still useful in *most* situations and where its not, odds are the old version was borderline oppressive (looking at you stormcast and sylvaneth with your 2+ rerollable BS). Of course we don't "know" for sure that the two spells need fixing but it sure seems like it. The point of this thread is to discuss the upcoming changes and that's what I did. We act according to some known tidbits and some inferred conclusions made from these. We don't have the whole picture but we got the wording of the banishment spell cut out of a page. I have played this game long enough to conclude that this is a very good spell. Anyway it's not an unsolvable issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, Jamopower said: In a normal game yes, but with an expansion that focuses on all sorts of wonders for wizards, the content should be available for both parties. Especially as GW has said themselves that it's not a very fair expansion for Khorne and other non-spellcasters. It can make an interesting special scenarios, but running them all the time, the charm is lost quite soon I fear. They've also said to "bear with them" and some of the factions such as Khorne will get some love at some point in the future. I genuinely do think that in 6 or 12 months we're going to find that we're running armies that all have unique shenanigans which should mean that we're all running more "well rounded" armies in order to counter a wider range of opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 35 minutes ago, Jamopower said: In a normal game yes, but with an expansion that focuses on all sorts of wonders for wizards, the content should be available for both parties. Especially as GW has said themselves that it's not a very fair expansion for Khorne and other non-spellcasters. It can make an interesting special scenarios, but running them all the time, the charm is lost quite soon I fear. Well Death doesn’t have shooting shall we do away with the shooting phase then? (Rhetorical) If looks like all factions will be able to take Allied wizards with the edition. There’s nothing to stop people from participating beyond their own choices. Given that the prayer system available to Khornate armies is in many ways stronger than the magic available to others, they’ll be fine, also we’re on our second Battletome I don’t think we can moan too much about being left out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrZakalwe Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Gotrek said: odds are the old version was borderline oppressive (looking at you stormcast and sylvaneth with your 2+ rerollable BS). Unless they change the Lord Castellant warscroll the Stormcast still wont use a Wizard to achieve this. The Stormcast invulnero-dragon will still heal from no rend wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Sigwarus said: To suggest that a spell could need banning ain't doom n gloom in my book. Rather an example of a creative solution provided by the community if necessary. I don't think the game is destroyed by the spells (banishment and umbra) but rather that it's in need of fixing. Together we can give GW the feedback needed to make sure a FAQ solves the issue. I would think that the time for that feedback isn't now. Provide feedback before anybody has even played a single game of 2e? Feedback on isolated pieces without seeing the whole picture seems... unhelpful at best. I'm sorry to say, but I'd be rather disinclined to listen at this point if I was GW. I'd say bookmark it, but this tendency to outright ban things before the game is even released and the impact is truly known seems pretty unhealthy. It comes off as folks are unwilling to give rule changes a fair shake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 15 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said: Well Death doesn’t have shooting shall we do away with the shooting phase then? (Rhetorical) If looks like all factions will be able to take Allied wizards with the edition. There’s nothing to stop people from participating beyond their own choices. Given that the prayer system available to Khornate armies is in many ways stronger than the magic available to others, they’ll be fine, also we’re on our second Battletome I don’t think we can moan too much about being left out. This is already bit far from the original context. Malign sorcery is an add-on content to the game, an expansion similar to malign portents or the Firestorm campaign. Now I understand that for many it is an interesting addition. However in a game where only the other party has wizards and they get additional bonus rules on top of their normal abilities, it is very similar to playing a scenario that has a universal -1 to hit for shooting due heavy raining between an Undead army and Wanderers. I would assume that the shooting analogue is a scenario that most people would consider quite unfair for the Wanderers. But just like the scenario special rules, the Malign sorcery is optional content, so it can be left out in that kind of case and included when both players have their wizards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Jamopower said: This is already bit far from the original context. Malign sorcery is an add-on content to the game, an expansion similar to malign portents or the Firestorm campaign. Now I understand that for many it is an interesting addition. However in a game where only the other party has wizards and they get additional bonus rules on top of their normal abilities, it is very similar to playing a scenario that has a universal -1 to hit for shooting due heavy raining between an Undead army and Wanderers. Thus it can be that it is not a fair starting scenario. I would assume that the shooting analogue is a scenario that most people would consider quite unfair for the Wanderers. It's optional content, so it can be left out in that kind of case and included when both players have their wizards. The way GW has talked about Malign Sorcery is that it's a Core Rules Expansion - I don't believe any of the other expansions (Malign Portents & Firestorm) have been described like this (though I could well be wrong). The impression I got was that it's down to you as the player to decide if you want to use it or not. However as per the current main rules - all rules are open for negotiation with your opponent. We've also no idea exactly how everything is going to work at the moment, we've got a few snippets of information from the community site so may well find that non-magic armies gain something to help them out a bit (now or in the future). For me, I know that based purely on the extended unbind range, my two Slaughterpriests and Mighty Lord are suddenly going to be a lot more useful in the game, plus with more magic bouncing around I can justify some of the anti-magic artefacts more easily. We could find that rolling a double to cast causes mortal wounds on the caster which would add some risk into using magic - until it either gets previewed or the rules hit the public domain, we just don't know yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S133arcanite Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Tzeentch gets points for all spells cast, including ones that don't have any effect. Arcane bolt on no one at the start of the game still gets points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 What does MSU stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderPirate Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, chord said: What does MSU stand for? Multiple Small Units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, chord said: What does MSU stand for? For us it means Multiple Small Units, so running lots of individual units at close to their smallest size. Good example is Ironjaw Brutes where you often run 4 or 5 units at 5 or 10 Brutes strong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, chord said: What does MSU stand for? Multiple Small Units. It's generally used for running around and either killing things through death from a thousand cuts or providing board control (so limiting when things can appear over 9" away from your units). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xasz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, chord said: What does MSU stand for? Multiple Small Units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drib Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 28 minutes ago, S133arcanite said: Tzeentch gets points for all spells cast, including ones that don't have any effect. Arcane bolt on no one at the start of the game still gets points Any Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furuzzolo Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, Drib said: Any Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 6 hours ago, Sheriff said: can't see this spell being allowed so not worried about it. Seems more op than gaunt dude deleting 30 models per turn. It's incredibly unlikely that we're going to single out spells some don't like. If you're worried about banishment then don't take large units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S133arcanite Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Drib said: Any Source? http://www.stormcastpodcast.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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