GHB2018 Wishlist

[DantePQ]

16 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

The problem of mortal wounds goes hand to hand to improved armor saves. 1+ armor saves rerolling 1 are obnoxious and you need mortal wounds to deal with it. Escalation happen and now we are getting more and more extra "armor saves" with the rules to save against mortal wounds. It will continue to spiral until they reset.

I don't know about it. t DoK BT and LoN are designed in different way. DoK doesn't have any reliable source of Mortal wounds that can be spammed, they don't have good armour save also their extra armour saves are 6++ (hardly awesome) I played against LoN as well and it was a blast as it is also well desgined BT. 

I would like to see better scenarios for matched play

[RuneBrush]

15 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

The problem of mortal wounds goes hand to hand to improved armor saves. 1+ armor saves rerolling 1 are obnoxious and you need mortal wounds to deal with it. Escalation happen and now we are getting more and more extra "armor saves" with the rules to save against mortal wounds. It will continue to spiral until they reset.

I actually think this is one thing 40k successfully has dealt with by having weapons with significantly higher rend (note, damage doesn't spill over) and invulnerable saves which aren't effected by the weapon rend.  However that would indeed be a massive warscroll revision

[Keldaur]

4 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I don't know about it. t DoK BT and LoN are designed in different way. DoK doesn't have any reliable source of Mortal wounds that can be spammed, they don't have good armour save also their extra armour saves are 6++ (hardly awesome) I played against LoN as well and it was a blast as it is also well desgined BT. 

I would like to see better scenarios for matched play

But they have ways to deflect mortal wounds. You can try to balance it, but in the long term your solution to high stackable armor shouldn't be only mortal wounds, as RuneBrush mentions, higher rend should had made it into the game before you need to get higher mortal wound availability. Rend -3 and rend -4 are brackets that don't exist or are too rare to deter people from stacking armor bonuses, therefore people have to resort to mortal wounds, because rend -1 or rend -2 is not enough against some of those stackers (ie Liberators + 2 castellans + staunch defender).

The way I see it is an escalation problem, you can try to soften the curve, but you are fighting against the growth of an exponential function. Not a big problem yet, but we are already starting to see the first symptoms.

[DantePQ]

It would be escalation if it happened. But it didn't. Last  3 BT (Nurgle, DoK, LoN) do not have : 

- stackable high armour bonuses 

- reliable sources of big mortal wounds outputs

- reliable ++ saves against mortal wounds. 

Escalations would happen if any of those things was escalted in newer BT. 

 

[chord]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

^ this!  I can remember my first games where there were only a smattering of mortal wounds about and how overall it was largely more enjoyable.  Nine times out of ten we all got to roll armour saves, it was just the odd attack with a high rend or the infrequent mortal wound that would go straight through - and normally only d3, so not enough to outright kill a hero.  Now, both AoS and 40k seem to have a huge proliferation of ways to general mortal wounds, but what that's meaning is more and more armies are getting ignore damage rolls - DoK have a 6++ roll from what I've read.

Agreed, starting out Mortal Wounds were more rare.  now they are everywhere 

[Keldaur]

13 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

It would be escalation if it happened. But it didn't. Last  3 BT (Nurgle, DoK, LoN) do not have : 

- stackable high armour bonuses 

- reliable sources of big mortal wounds outputs

- reliable ++ saves against mortal wounds. 

Escalations would happen if any of those things was escalted in newer BT. 

 

5++ rerollable on 30 wound units is not good against mortal wounds? That's better than what vulkites get fyi. Nurgle itself gets their own FnP (5+, i don't know what you call reliable to be honest, but diminishing the mortal wound output by 1/3 is important) and have a very good wounds/point ratio.

And i am talking long term. Don't you see a difference between 2015's sigmar and 2018 in regards to armor stacking/mortal wounds output?

The armies that can put a lot of mortal wounds out there still exist, same for rerollable 1s armor saves, they are not going away, that's the point.

[PJetski]

3 minutes ago, chord said:

Agreed, starting out Mortal Wounds were more rare.  now they are everywhere 

Aside from Stormcast (which I would count as being there from the start) which army releases have increased the amount of mortal wounds in the game? Bloodbound, KO, Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, and Ironjawz don't do a lot of mortal wounds. Tzeentch is the major outlier but they're the premier offensive spellcasting faction so it makes sense.

I think people have just found units like the Thundertusk and Engine of the Gods as a meta response to low model count/high save armies like Stormcast, and in response to that people have started using more large blocks of infantry. 6 mortal wounds is great against a 6 wound hero, but against 40 skeletons that can ignore it on a 6+ and resurrect back to full health next turn... it's not that impressive.

Mortal Wounds are a finite tool that you need to use properly. If you bring an army full of expensive, low wound count units (like Saurus Guard) then you should know that you will be very weak to mortal wounds. That's not a flaw in the design of the game, that is a flaw in your list building - don't bring a stick to a gun fight.

[DantePQ]

46 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

5++ rerollable on 30 wound units is not good against mortal wounds? That's better than what vulkites get fyi. Nurgle itself gets their own FnP (5+, i don't know what you call reliable to be honest, but diminishing the mortal wound output by 1/3 is important) and have a very good wounds/point ratio.

And i am talking long term. Don't you see a difference between 2015's sigmar and 2018 in regards to armor stacking/mortal wounds output?

The armies that can put a lot of mortal wounds out there still exist, same for rerollable 1s armor saves, they are not going away, that's the point.

Re rollabe 5++ is only when :

- you take specific temple 

- 7“ from General 

- you need to cast a prayer (so have a hero who can do this in range and still you will fail to cast it 2 turns out of 6)

Nope I don't see a difference. Escalation means that something is well escalating. We don't have more special saves, more mortal wounds spams or more re-rollable high saves. Recent army books have little ways to generate mortal wounds, hardly any 1+-3+ re-rollable saves or reliable ++ saves (6+ isn't reliable) so I ask where is escalation? 

Wounds/point ratio doesn't have anything to do with escalation of mortals wounds and saves as such escalation isn't happening 

[Keldaur]

You are taking specific temples, and if you want defense from mortal wounds that's the temple you are going to be using. It's not exactly a bad temple option.

7" of the general with 30 model units is fairly easy (see Fyreslayers)

Casting a prayer from models you will certainly have if are actually playing to your strengths (ie +1 FNP, then you get rerollable FNP because it synergizes with your options)

If you don't see the difference between having to deal 30 mortal wounds or 70 mortal wounds to kill a unit, I don't know what can make you see it.

Wounds/points have everything to do with escalation, because as you improve the wound/point ratio of units, you lower the effectiveness of mortal wounds, then to make mortal wounds relevant again, you will have to increase their effectiveness (output), and so on and so on.

[DantePQ]

If you are blasting mortal  30 wounds into unit with buffs then you're clearly doing something wrong. 

Also you did not provide any points or/and specific examples that escalation of those three mechanics is actually happening. 

Anyway you wanna spin it we don't have armies that are a having better and better (as this is escalation) mortal wound output, high rerollabe saves and mortal wound protections in form of special saves ( you stilk ignored that you need to cast a prayer in DoK and you will fail it 33% of times). Because it isn't happening. Even last 4 armies counting KO have little of this mechanics Yes they can have something but any of them is abusing it and usually it's quite conditional. Escalation would Mena that every new army have more mortal wounds, saves and special saves and it is clearly false. 

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Mortal Wounds are a finite tool that you need to use properly. If you bring an army full of expensive, low wound count units (like Saurus Guard) then you should know that you will be very weak to mortal wounds. That's not a flaw in the design of the game, that is a flaw in your list building - don't bring a stick to a gun fight.

I'm okay with that idea -- just don't charge me 100 points for 5 sticks with the Saurus Guard. If mortal wounds are going to be as ubiquitously available and prominent as they are now, then a lot of "formerly hardy" units like the Saurus Guard must be repointed to restore balance.

[Keldaur]

5 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

If you are blasting mortal  30 wounds into unit with buffs then you're clearly doing something wrong. 

Also you did not provide any points or/and specific examples that escalation of those three mechanics is actually happening. 

Anyway you wanna spin it we don't have armies that are a having better and better (as this is escalation) mortal wound output, high rerollabe saves and mortal wound protections in form of special saves ( you stilk ignored that you need to cast a prayer in DoK and you will fail it 33% of times). Because it isn't happening. Even last 4 armies counting KO have little of this mechanics Yes they can have something but any of them is abusing it and usually it's quite conditional. Escalation would Mena that every new army have more mortal wounds, saves and special saves and it is clearly false. 

The first thing you are saying is a strawman. I haven't said so, I have talked about protection against mortal wounds where you can render them inefficient. With that in mind please,  reconstruct your argument in that regard. If you took an honest look at the point I am making, you would see that you are pretty much proving my point.

About specific examples, you have the horde point cost reduction, for example. I didn't name them because I took for granted they were very obvious, apologies.

Also another strawman. Please refrain yourself from arguing if you feel I had not developed it properly, ask me instead of taking it for granted. I already addressed this back in my posts. I am talking long term. You are being myopic if you only look at a few releases (which had been fairly generous on their wound/cost) and then claim there is no escalation going on. An escalation is something gradual, that's why I asked you if the game had changed from 2015 to 2018 in that regard, something you chose not to answer to. 

It will go armor saves gets improved ---- mortal wounds get improved to challenge it ---- > wound/cost gets improved to diminish mortal wounds power in an ever increasing cycle of balance where the only thing that happens is creeping power. Is this a bad thing? No, it's an inevitable flaw of any game system with this kind of scheduled releases and only major changes and resets will fix it at the end, but you can do what you can to smooth the curve to infinitum .

[PJetski]

25 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

I'm okay with that idea -- just don't charge me 100 points for 5 sticks with the Saurus Guard. If mortal wounds are going to be as ubiquitously available and prominent as they are now, then a lot of "formerly hardy" units like the Saurus Guard must be repointed to restore balance.

I think the issue here is Saurus Guard being a lackluster unit since they have not been updated since the compendiums were released, and not the overall design of the game.

That's why I suggested bumping them to 2 wounds per model and raising their point cost in the OP

[DantePQ]

47 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

An escalation is something gradual, that's why I asked you if the game had changed from 2015 to 2018 in that regard, something you chose not to answer to. 

It will go armor saves gets improved ---- mortal wounds get improved to challenge it ---- > wound/cost gets improved to diminish mortal wounds power in an ever increasing cycle of balance where the only thing that happens is creeping power. Is this a bad thing? No, it's an inevitable flaw of any game system with this kind of scheduled releases and only major changes and resets will fix it at the end, but you can do what you can to smooth the curve to infinitum .

If it is gradual show me with recent releases that notion that saves gets improved --- mortal wounds gets improved --- wound/cost is true ? 

Since second SCE BT there is no army that has better saves 

Since DoT BT there is no atmy that has better mortal wounds output 

If it was gradual after DoT we should get armies that are better at those mechanics, but DoT is still usually dominating competitve scene, if your point about escalation was true it wouldn't be a case. 

Also take recent armies they are not escalating anything as far as I know Nurgle, LoN and now DoT are well balanced without mortals wounds spams or re-rollable saves, sure they have some protection but it's very  conditional. KO is very strong army when played well and they don't have any of those mechanics that are "escalating". I think DoK surely shows that GW isn't going in that way. There was apparently a lot of playtesting involved (for example Heartrenders were toned down a lot), there are already rules in check (like no stacking on abilities etc).

What's more taking 2015 into account is just manipulation becasue there was hardly any Battletomes and GW itself didn't want to know what AoS is and what it should be. And sure since GH 2016 a lot of changed but it was down to specific armies like DoT which are still best is there any army that rely on mortal wounds like DoT ? No there isn't. There are specific armies that rely on certain mechanic but there are no new armies that rely on this mechanic and do this better. There is hardly any powercreep/escalating.   

[RuneBrush]

I would say that the amount of mortal wound potential has increased for each battletome, purely based on the fact that there are spell lores with each army - previously you may have been limited to 1 arcane bolt per turn.

In other ways, DoK now have Blood Sisters and Blood Stalkers capable of throwing out MW's, Witch Aelves have their bucklers too.  Nurglings do a mortal wound on a 2+ rather than 6+ and I'm sure there's a way for units to kick out mortal wounds as well.  That's just off the top of my head.

[S133arcanite]

On 2/26/2018 at 9:05 PM, PJetski said:

warscroll errata made it a lot easier to kill the Stonehorns

Sorry, must have missed this, what does it do?

 

[Gecktron]

4 minutes ago, S133arcanite said:

Sorry, must have missed this, what does it do?

 

Half the damage of each attack (but not below 1) instead of all together. So 10 Handgunners can make 10 points of damage (1/2=0,5 -> 1 x10) while they were limited to 5 before (10/2=5)

[Vasshpit]

In regards to mortal wounds how about a universal rule applied to shields along the lines of any model with a shield get a 5+ or 6+ save against mortals? 

It would be simple and widespread effective. Just an idea. 

[Vextol]

I don't think the increase in available mortal wounds has gone up all that fast.  It went up a little as there were very few armies that had it at all and now they do, but it's still a fairly rare thing in the game.  I think it just seems like it's gone up because mortal wounds are so much easier than other wounds to account for.  No hit rolls, no wound rolls, no save rolls, so people build lists that encourage and magnify the mortal wound output of their armies. 

Mortal wounds are also more reliable.  You are getting guaranteed (pretty much) damage.  I know if I'm attacking with 3d3 mortal wounds, I can reliably assume 6 damage is going to be dealt.  Why would I bring a REALLY good archer to try to take out a wounded hero when I know I can kill them with mortal wounds.  A D6 damage attack is a lot right?  Except d6 damage on a 3+, 2+, -3 rend attack means less damage on average than d3 mortals.

I think melee/direct attacking in general needs to be better.  That helps with shooting concerns, lessens the impact of mortal wounds, lessens the impact of the double turn, and helps a lot of the struggling armies right now (almost all of which are heavily melee based, or, they have one or two good units that help them skirt by that AREN'T melee).  The only REALLY solid melee armies have excellent mortal output (stormcast), incredible durability (stormcast and nurgle), or some schticks that help keep them alive (Death).

[Galas]

I just want a little change... give two different point costs for all heroes/UNITS with mount options in their basic warscrol. Freeguild Generals, Ork Warbosses (This one affects me most), even things like the Tzaangors on Discs with Spears. Allow me to field them on foot without feeling stupid for doing so. Its hard enough that the Ork Warboss is priced with the Waagh Banner in mind, so they are overpriced if you use them with just normal weapons, but is even worse if you try to field him on foot with normal weapons.

In W40k they have this with the Power Level System, so basically AoS Points. For example a unit of assault marines can take all Jump Packs for 1 PL if they are 5 or for 2 PL if they are 10.  I don't think is something very difficult to implement in Aos.

[Vasshpit]

Also, id really like to be able to purchase artefacts for heroes with out battalion cost in matched play.  

[mumperpa]

New (not from the realmgate wars) narrative battleplans. 

More focus on campaigns.

I'll second the sieges. 

[PlasticCraic]

8 hours ago, Keldaur said:

The problem of mortal wounds goes hand to hand to improved armor saves. 1+ armor saves rerolling 1 are obnoxious and you need mortal wounds to deal with it. Escalation happen and now we are getting more and more extra "armor saves" with the rules to save against mortal wounds. It will continue to spiral until they reset.

Totally agree with this.  Stormcast and Sylvaneth save spam essentially breaks the game without mortal wounds, so you end up with an arms race of having to bypass that ridiculous armour save entirely (proliferation of mortal wounds), which means needing protection from mortal wounds, who swallowed the spider to catch the fly.  And the armies that have none of the above just get left further, and further, and further behind.  I don't think they had any idea that the likes of Gnarled Warrior would have this kind of impact and every book that comes out is caught up in its butterfly effect.

[Keldaur]

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

If it is gradual show me with recent releases that notion that saves gets improved --- mortal wounds gets improved --- wound/cost is true ? 

Since second SCE BT there is no army that has better saves 

Since DoT BT there is no atmy that has better mortal wounds output 

If it was gradual after DoT we should get armies that are better at those mechanics, but DoT is still usually dominating competitve scene, if your point about escalation was true it wouldn't be a case. 

Also take recent armies they are not escalating anything as far as I know Nurgle, LoN and now DoT are well balanced without mortals wounds spams or re-rollable saves, sure they have some protection but it's very  conditional. KO is very strong army when played well and they don't have any of those mechanics that are "escalating". I think DoK surely shows that GW isn't going in that way. There was apparently a lot of playtesting involved (for example Heartrenders were toned down a lot), there are already rules in check (like no stacking on abilities etc).

What's more taking 2015 into account is just manipulation becasue there was hardly any Battletomes and GW itself didn't want to know what AoS is and what it should be. And sure since GH 2016 a lot of changed but it was down to specific armies like DoT which are still best is there any army that rely on mortal wounds like DoT ? No there isn't. There are specific armies that rely on certain mechanic but there are no new armies that rely on this mechanic and do this better. There is hardly any powercreep/escalating.   

For some reason, you are ignoring what I said about the long term, and taking for granted that what I am saying is that mortal wound, armor saves, and wound/cost ratio is going up with EVERY single release, which is not what I am saying.

 Sylvaneth and SCE get to have 2+ rerollable 1s, DoT and BoK get plenty of mortal wounds each, some other SCE eternals also get mortal wounds deliverance. Hordes later get a price discount (which it improves their wound/cost...i mean this should be obvious, especially since I had already said it before), which paired with the GHB changes it allows armies like Fyreslayers, with high model (wounds), very good saves (extra wounds) to flourish on a meta heavy on armor/mw output (mw output will always be lower than regular wounds output overall, or at least, it should). Then you have Nurgle (I mean, why do I need to do all the work when it is easily available for you? Do blightkings have a better wound/cost ratio than before yes or yes?). Death has been about making the units with more wounds more efficient due to being well priced plus having a very good offense (and a decent survival/regen), which also makes mortal wounds less efficient (there is a reason why sylvaneth players had been struggling with tzeench and had been thinking about switching to dryad hordes, gaunt summoner tho.)

And now, the latest release (which I plan to collect), has decent priced high count units (wounds), with regular saves, but ways to improve their invulnerable saves into something very good against MW or whatever increasing their wounds per point massively.

2016, DoT didn't exist btw... it wasn't until 2017 (months before the latest GHB). It seems like your timeline is a bit blurry and you should re-visit it.

Anyways, the discussion is over, I am not going to continue with this, we can perfectly agree to disagree and part ways from this discussion.

 

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, DantePQ said:

If you are blasting mortal  30 wounds into unit with buffs then you're clearly doing something wrong. 

Also you did not provide any points or/and specific examples that escalation of those three mechanics is actually happening. 

Anyway you wanna spin it we don't have armies that are a having better and better (as this is escalation) mortal wound output, high rerollabe saves and mortal wound protections in form of special saves ( you stilk ignored that you need to cast a prayer in DoK and you will fail it 33% of times). Because it isn't happening. Even last 4 armies counting KO have little of this mechanics Yes they can have something but any of them is abusing it and usually it's quite conditional. Escalation would Mena that every new army have more mortal wounds, saves and special saves and it is clearly false. 

Armies from those Battletomes you have cited with mortal wound saves: 3/3

Armies from earlier Battletomes with mortal wound saves:  2/17 maybe?  Bonesplitterz and Fyreslayers?  

You can quibble on the fineprint but I'd certainly call that escalation.

They also have substantial mortal wound output: Nurgle in particular is colloquially known as Battletome D3 Mortal Wounds, Legions of Nagash has its spell lores (I wonder why everyone is excited about the Amaranthine Orb?) and DOK has its prayers and spells as well as the Melusai, the unit being referred to as their Skyfires (the one thing better than mortal wounds is mortal wounds at range, even infinite range in the case of Nurgle).

The one thing they don't have is escalating armour saves, which is a good thing.  They caused the whole issue.

I love AOS (way more than 40K) but I do think this is one area where 40K was able to learn from AOS going first - high rend and scarce invulnerable saves is a superior mechanic overall.