Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

4 hours ago, smucreo said:

Scary. Don't know how competitive but scary nonetheless. I may even try it soon haha I've been theorycrafting a Legion of Blood list too, although mine is a bit more balanced with 2 units of 40 skellies in it (and 2 vamp lords to summon them forward).

 

I can imagine that it depends what you're facing, but being able to get the big boys into combat quickly would be devastating against some armies.

[Killax]

10 minutes ago, Xasz said:

Speculation.

You have no hard evidence or sample size for this.

For casual gaming, every new book is a blessing regardless of strength. How well LoN will perform in a competitive setting remains to be seen. @swarmofseals and @WoollyMammoth made some quality posts around here and still, it is unclear how the scene/meta will react (if at all). Yet, their posts are much more valuable and give a lot of insight then just stating personal opinions over and over again. 

Either way, I'm happy I bought the book. Vampire Counts was one of my first armies back in WHFB and until now they did not much except gathering dust.  Super interested how LoN will perform in upcoming tournaments, the first couple battle reports within a local vacuum sound promising at least. (thanks for posting them)

I do have hard evidence and sample sizes for you, because I play 40K too and this is the closest army that replicates how summonning works there but even improves on it.

On 7-2-2018 at 10:04 AM, Xasz said:

To be honest, this book seems like a big pile of 'meh'.

To be honest, knowing you said this first and now seem happy with the books says enough of your vision on it.

As before, LoN will make a competitive presence, you can quote me on that next month.

Best of luck.

[Killax]

20 minutes ago, Grimnaud said:

My problem with the VLoZD is how swingy his attacks are. Hitting on a 4+ can go horribly wrong at exactly the wrong time, as can d6 damage. I've run a lot of Zombie Dragons and Terrorgheists in FEC, and while they can be absolutely brilliant, they can also flop so hard you can feel the ground shake. To make up for that you either end up using the VLoZD's command ability on himself, or Prince Vorhdai's spell on himself. And Vorhdai doesn't benefit from the extra attacks from Legion of Blood.

Well that's the whole point of his Command Ability... To use it for himself. Same with Quickblood for Prince, use it for himself. Then add the 5" movement spell to Vhordhai and have the Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with Sanguine Blur to have two pieces that are capable of making that turn 1 charge.

Am I saying this dominates the competitive scene instantly? No, it's just one of the dozen options with Legions of Nagash that is capable of deleting your opponents two key units. Which in itself is another competitive factor you can present to the game. 

 

[Xasz]

The important part from that sentence is the "seems". (which already denotes uncertainty)

First impressions are just that, no shame in changing your feelings towards something. Especially if you are not sure if your initial expectations are met.

The problem with a lot of your posts is, that they convey a level of certainty in their statements that can rarely be backed up. You probably burn for the hobby (which is great) and you do a lot of cool stuff within this forum. (the magic cards are pretty swell, been using them forever) But the majority of your posts are just heavily opinionated, which takes a great deal away from them.

Back to LoN.

Do we know if we can take the Knight of Shrouds as general in an LoN army?

Or is there any statement from GW how we can integrate him into an LoN list?

I didn't have the chance to unwrap the Malign Portens book yet...

[Killax]

9 minutes ago, Xasz said:

The important part from that sentence is the "seems". (which already denotes uncertainty)

First impressions are just that, no shame in changing your feelings towards something. Especially if you are not sure if your initial expectations are met.

The problem with a lot of your posts is, that they convey a level of certainty in their statements that can rarely be backed up. You probably burn for the hobby (which is great) and you do a lot of cool stuff within this forum. (the magic cards are pretty swell, been using them forever) But the majority of your posts are just heavily opinionated, which takes a great deal away from them.

Back to LoN.

Do we know if we can take the Knight of Shrouds as general in an LoN army?

Or is there any statement from GW how we can integrate him into an LoN list?

I didn't have the chance to unwrap the Malign Portens book yet...

What's important to thake away from any forum post is that it is a persons perspective on the game.
If you look into the history of the game, have played several systems, reconizing instant strenghts and massive buffs is not that difficult to do. Obviously I can't produce tournament results for a book that isn't even out seven days yet. I don't even know why you are of the assumption that it should be.

If you look into the Let's chat Maggotkin topic you can find the same opinions from me. Maggotkin of Nurgle is a competitive viable army that brings strenghts no other army has available, now Maggotkin has presented itself twice in the top 10. In the two largest events that have been around since the book came out. In addition to that, you act as if giving an opinion is a bad idea. 

If I ever at some point felt that Legion of Nagash was bad/mweh from the spoilers, I'd simply state this aswell. Because not all is great in Legions of Nagash but the fast mayority of units is. Even this is a common nominator in Age of Sigmar, about 80% of each faction's units are good, around 20% arn't. In that aspect Legions of Nagash is no different either. Bringing Gravemarkers + Summonable units and Deadly Invocations to the table simply said is a massive boost.

In regards to your questions:

You can thake the Knight of Shrouds as a General to your Legion of Nagash army. This is because 'Herald rules' allow for it. However it only has acces to the Keywords it has itself (right now) and because it isn't in the Legions of Nagash book it cannot gain the Legion Keywords (right now).

The Heralds allow them to be integrated as a general for every army that has a Grand Allegiance Keyword match. This is indeed different from what is usually the case. It does not however obtain any of the Keywords from the Allegiance and as such will have very limited acces to Command Traits and/or Artefacts. E.g. in MP is that the Stormcast Herald does have acces to the Command Traits and Artefacts from Stormcast because he has that Keyword aswell. But when used as a General for Free Guilds he cannot obtain any Command Traits or Artefacts from them.

[Elmir]

22 minutes ago, Xasz said:

Do we know if we can take the Knight of Shrouds as general in an LoN army?

Or is there any statement from GW how we can integrate him into an LoN list?

I didn't have the chance to unwrap the Malign Portens book yet...

Just going to copy paste a post I made about that earlier: 

 

 it was just unclear to me if the KoS was actually allowed to take the command traits/artifacts or not. Most people seem to assume he can, but I actually think he can't because of these 2 quotes from the books: 

• From MP book: 

"Harbingers can be included as allies in any army  that shares their Grand alliance keyword. Though they are not treated as part of the player's army for the purpose of defining it's allegiance and what allegiance abilities it qualifies for. However, a Harbinger can only be given a command trait if they also share the keyword of that army's allegiance. In addition a harbinger can always be chosen as the army's general. "

AFAIK, the KoS doesn't have the legion of X keyword and it can't be given one either, because he's not part of the 33 warscrolls in the LoN book... So I'm not sure he can be given Legion of Sacrament command traits or artifacts. 

• Page 60 of the Legions of Nagash book. 

"When choosing your army, you may decide if it's taken from one of the legions of Nagash. If you do, choose one of the following faction keywords. All units and warscroll battalions in your army selected FROM THIS BATTLETOME gain that keyword. "

In case he can be given artifacts/traits, I wonder if he can "dethrone" Arkhan or even Nagash... Because the MP books says a harbinger can ALWAYS be the general and that collides with the rules in the LoN book regarding Nagash and mortarchs in their respective legions. 

TL/DR:  I don't think the KoS can be given any artifacts/command traits except for a pure nighthaunt force. 

[Xasz]

5 minutes ago, Elmir said:

Just going to copy paste a post I made about that earlier: 

 

 it was just unclear to me if the KoS was actually allowed to take the command traits/artifacts or not. Most people seem to assume he can, but I actually think he can't because of these 2 quotes from the books: 

• From MP book: 

"Harbingers can be included as allies in any army  that shares their Grand alliance keyword. Though they are not treated as part of the player's army for the purpose of defining it's allegiance and what allegiance abilities it qualifies for. However, a Harbinger can only be given a command trait if they also share the keyword of that army's allegiance. In addition a harbinger can always be chosen as the army's general. "

AFAIK, the KoS doesn't have the legion of sacrament keyword and it can't be given one either, because he's not part of the 33 warscrolls in the LoN book... So I'm not sure he can be given Legion of Sacrament command traits or artifacts. 

• Page 60 of the Legions of Nagash book. 

"When choosing your army, you may decide if it's taken from one of the legions of Nagash. If you do, choose one of the following faction keywords. All units and warscroll battalions in your army selected FROM THIS BATTLETOME gain that keyword. "

In case he can be given artifacts/traits, I wonder if he can "dethrone" Arkhan or even Nagash... Because the MP books says a harbinger can ALWAYS be the general and that collides with the rules in the LoN book regarding Nagash and mortarchs in their respective legions. 

TL/DR:  I don't think the KoS can be given any artifacts/command traits except for a pure nighthaunt force. 

Ok, the whole "can be general" part seems kinda contradictory, will be interesting to see how GW clears that up.

I hoped he would be able to get command abilities and artifacts somehow, but it seems rather clear that he cannot.

[Grimnaud]

25 minutes ago, Elmir said:

Just going to copy paste a post I made about that earlier: 

 

 it was just unclear to me if the KoS was actually allowed to take the command traits/artifacts or not. Most people seem to assume he can, but I actually think he can't because of these 2 quotes from the books: 

• From MP book: 

"Harbingers can be included as allies in any army  that shares their Grand alliance keyword. Though they are not treated as part of the player's army for the purpose of defining it's allegiance and what allegiance abilities it qualifies for. However, a Harbinger can only be given a command trait if they also share the keyword of that army's allegiance. In addition a harbinger can always be chosen as the army's general. "

AFAIK, the KoS doesn't have the legion of X keyword and it can't be given one either, because he's not part of the 33 warscrolls in the LoN book... So I'm not sure he can be given Legion of Sacrament command traits or artifacts. 

• Page 60 of the Legions of Nagash book. 

"When choosing your army, you may decide if it's taken from one of the legions of Nagash. If you do, choose one of the following faction keywords. All units and warscroll battalions in your army selected FROM THIS BATTLETOME gain that keyword. "

In case he can be given artifacts/traits, I wonder if he can "dethrone" Arkhan or even Nagash... Because the MP books says a harbinger can ALWAYS be the general and that collides with the rules in the LoN book regarding Nagash and mortarchs in their respective legions. 

TL/DR:  I don't think the KoS can be given any artifacts/command traits except for a pure nighthaunt force. 

The KoS can only be given artifacts/ command traits in nighthaunt army or in a Ga:Death army. 

Also, the KoS can only be included in a LoN army IF you're using the Malign Portents special rule. Page 80 states that: "Harbingers can be included as allies in any army that shares their Grand Alliance keyword, though they are not treated as part of the player's army for the purposes of defining its allegiance and what allegiance abilites it qualifies for". Thing is though, that the KoS doesn't have the Harbringer Keyword on his Warscroll. Instead page 50 of MP states: "When using the Malign Portents rules in your games of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, the following Heroes gain the Harbringer keyword: Darkoath Warqueen, Lord-Ordinator, Knight of Shrouds, Fungoid Cave-Shaman."

[Sception]

Yeah, but if you're not using the malign portents rules, I'm not sure the KoS is worth taking outside of Nighthaunt armies, anyway.

[Killax]

18 minutes ago, Sception said:

Yeah, but if you're not using the malign portents rules, I'm not sure the KoS is worth taking outside of Nighthaunt armies, anyway.

Yeah it's not really bad for 120 points but for 2000 points there are so many better alternatives.

I also think it pretty much applies to all Heralds with except maby the Stormcast one because, well, he has that Keyword, they are a relevant Allegiance and shooting twice with War Machines absolutely causes headaches.

Knight of Shrouds is otherwise cool for 1000 points or indeed Nighthaunt, maby Grand Allegiance Death. In general I think the model is cooler as it's actual use. The benifits and power gained from a Vampire Lord on foot is just better for that 20 point difference. 

[RuneBrush]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

The only focus I feel that is still lingering on the TGA forums is the one that focusses heavily on Named Characters, while I don't think they are bad I do believe the competitive experiences of the army come better to light when those arn't your forced generals. This is just about the only cap Legions of Nagash have to work with.

Funnily enough I was thinking about this last night.  It's a shame each legion doesn't have an ability where if it's run by the appropriate Mortarch they don't gain a "free" Inspiring Presence.  Wouldn't be hugely overpowered, but would help to compensate the lack of command trait when trying to run a more thematic army.  Ho hum

[Grimnaud]

I'm not even planning on buying him, much less using him. It's just sort of funny that neither of the two units Death has gotten since the End Times can't be used in the new Legions in ordinary matched play. Pretty sure that this will be Erretaed/FAQ'ed pretty soon though.

[Killax]

12 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Funnily enough I was thinking about this last night.  It's a shame each legion doesn't have an ability where if it's run by the appropriate Mortarch they don't gain a "free" Inspiring Presence.  Wouldn't be hugely overpowered, but would help to compensate the lack of command trait when trying to run a more thematic army.  Ho hum

I largely agree, though at the same time Im very happy that Games Workshop didn't push the named characters too much. In my opinion they are allready great assets because they do have acces to both Lores and because of that you can also skip on a Necromancer/Vampire Lord to thake them instead.

From a design perspective I think the reason why they didn't do it is because GW has more benifits to players buying both instead of giving the suggestion that you must thake that character in order to have acces to bonus such and so. Now I feel like the named characters are truely a choice, just like all the Battleline options, instead of more akin to GH2016/GH2017 Death where they where 'must thakes' because you had no great alternatives.

I have that same perspective on the Mournghul now also. I think it's actually a blessing for Legions of Nagash that it isn't in there or isn't easily accesable. This way you have much more options. Quite frankly I think plastic GW alternatives should be on the forefront and FW choices should be optional. The other way around AoS could easily turn into a "cash-game".

[Sception]

I got it.  It's a pretty model, its very useful in malign portents games, which Im excited to play as a death player, especially with the campaign coming.  And it does make my previous 1000 point nighthaunt sidelist (banshee, 2 wraiths, 6 hosts, 5 hexes, mourngul) a lot more interesting by replacing the wraiths with a general with an actual command ability.

[Sception]

The main thing I wish with the mortarchs is either that they had improved their defense innately with more wounds and better armor, or else that all of the formations had provided real defence like the first cohort, or else that, instead of being a formation bonus, that archai could just tank wounds for nearby death heroes to begin with, like tomb heralds for tomb kings, as that's part of their fluff anyway. Maybe reduce their speed to balance it out.

Something to make the mortarchs more viable in competitive games, as they just feel too squishy as is, especially when they have to be your general.

[Killax]

Can only agree with that, though quite frankly I lay that blame with the current way the Shooting phase works out and the way Shooting is completely unrestricted.

The harsh truth (even for myself) is that playing melee centered armies (which the mayority of AoS armies are, even within Chaos, Death and Destruction) is currently putting some form of handicap upon yourself. It's also why I would love to see AoS grow into a direction where shooting meta's like that are ever so slightly less relevant.

If the intention ever would be to have Matched play lead to a competitive game where all armies have roughly equal chances of winning and that chance comes from characters it's a bit nuts to think that the easiest way to handle that is bringing some ranged offenses. While the mayority of Allegiances doesn't have acces like spectacular ranged offenses like Order armies do...

Having said that though, out of the Mortarchs I do think Arkhan can do some good work. I think my love for Legion of Night also comes from this. It gives you a shot against such armies. As double teleporting Terrorgheists arn't shabby shooters either.

[smucreo]

Yep it's hard to be a melee centric army without a way of getting close quickly haha thank god this book gave us a lot of options for that. Btw @Killax I'm playing this Friday against a Changehost list and I've finally caved in and decided to bring a Night list to try to do something vs him haha

[Killax]

8 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Yep it's hard to be a melee centric army without a way of getting close quickly haha thank god this book gave us a lot of options for that. Btw @Killax I'm playing this Friday against a Changehost list and I've finally caved in and decided to bring a Night list to try to do something vs him haha

Awesome! Looking forward to read about the results.

@RuneBrush also had a really good point in his article with the first Warscroll spoilers and I do agree, Blades of Khorne by comparison is allready too slow (unless Murderhost is taken). Luckily I have more hope for Maggotkin of Nurgle and Legions of Nagash to counter even Tzeentch or Serpahon. Good placement will remain essential but if opponents don't automatically reach for one-drops I think you will have a really good shot at an exciting game.

[Xasz]

I somewhat expect a change to shooting in the next GHB. (or an overall re-visitation of the core rules)

Nothing to big, nothing too fancy and probably one of the more prominent ideas floating around.

Either one or both of them:

• units with enemies within 3" of them can only shoot at enemy units within 3"
• shooting at non-monster, non-behemoth heroes at -1 to hit

This would make the game way more interesting and fluffy in my opinion and keeps AoS AoS.

When the new 40k edition dropped I was really hyped for their character protection rule but over the last couple month I learned to despise its implementation. It just gets abused so hard and leads to some negative experiences. The absolute worst offender was the assassin character spam list... (I don't like bols but for the interested http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-the-unstoppable-list-wgc2017.html)

I really wanted this for AoS at first, but I think a simpler solution would fit the game way better while leaving less surface for misuse.

[Tizianolol]

Guys any tourney player posted any lists coming from new battletome?:)

[smucreo]

Can the VLOZD target himself with his command ability? Yes, right? It says within and I recall seeing in FAQS that all units are within range of themselves.

[AverageBoss]

Maybe I will give this list a try:

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament
Vampire Lord On Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Trait: Bound to the Master
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Vampire Lord (140)
- Mount: Nightmare
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Hexwraiths (160)
2 x Morghast Harbingers (220)
- Spirit Halberds
10 x Black Knights (240)
Mortis Engine (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 143
 

 

[Xasz]

41 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Can the VLOZD target himself with his command ability? Yes, right? It says within and I recall seeing in FAQS that all units are within range of themselves.

Yes he can.

[Hulksmash]

This is where I was thinking of starting;

 

Allegiance: Legion of Night
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Trait: Terrifying Visage 
- Artefact: Shard of Night 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
30 x Dire Wolves (320)
1 x Corpse Cart (80)
2 x Bat Swarms (80)
Terrorgheist (300)
Terrorgheist (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 199

[Malakithe]

5 hours ago, smucreo said:

I think Legion of Night with a basic set-up of 2 units of Morghast Harbingers, two vamp lords and a summonable unit on gravesites can be really unpredictable, specially with a set-up close to this:

Where red represents the range of the ambushes, and the gravesites are the bubbles (I considered 9" inch range from each site, which effectively means it's an 18" bubble). You put the Morghast and one vamp lord in ambush and the other lord on the center of the two gravesites. This way your ambushing vampire lord (who can come from either side or through the back in two places) or your regular vampire lord (who can choose either central gravesite) can summon your summonable unit upfront. Probably worth doing with things like skeletons. With this you have an army which can appear from a lot of places and it's not restricted to appearing in one way, which will keep your opponent guessing until you decide to appear with Morghast, but by then you will be charging them already. 

I did this in a rush but I think it represents quite well what I mean. Oh, and thanks for the answers on the +1 to hit guys  

I was actually thinking this. Pop out a VL or Necro within the 9" gravesite range then summon up a block of 40 skellies on the oppentents front line lol

With the set up like you described it makes it a bit harder to predict where they will come from too