Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Killax]

1 hour ago, grungolah said:

This kind of talk makes my ears perk up.  Do we know if either will be a battleline in the new book?  Presumably at least the Black Knights are battleline in the new version of deathrattle.

They arn't. Hexwraiths are Battleline for Nighthaunt but under the Legions your armylist has no Batteline.

1 hour ago, smucreo said:

I would add more dogs and probably sub the morghast for a terrorgheist, although I'd probably go for Legion of Sacrament instead of Grand Host allegiance then.

Id certainly recommend Legion of Night for Terrorgheists  

[choocheelo]

2 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

What about deathless minions?

Mortal wound allocated to nagash > trigger DEATHLESS MINIONS save > Morikhane save > trigger Ceaseless vigil attempt > allocate wound to Morghast Archai > DEATHLESS MINIONS SAVE > trigger Eben-Wrought Armour save > mortal wound is finally suffered.

Its not clear how a normal save would work. I guess you are allocating the save, so Nagash could use his 3+. Then, if it fails, wounds are allocated. This step is not 100% clear, but it seems like you could allocate to deathless minions first for a 6+ per damage, then failing that, the 3+ to the Morghast. Now, this is wound allocation, not a save so the Morghast would not be able to roll its 4+ armor - but being a wound was just allocated to a death model, that's another 6+ Deathless Minions. So that would be:
(3+) > 6+ > 3+ > 6+

And each mortal would be saved at 6+>4+>3+>6+>5+

 

 

Wwwwwwwhaaaat?:D

I think then you allocating wound or mortal wound on Nagash you roll 3+ on ceaseless vigil. Then if 3+ you make save roll fot morghasts, 1-2 you must allocate wounds on Nagash, so you make rolls for Nagash.

 

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, choocheelo said:

Wwwwwwwhaaaat?:D

I think then you allocating wound or mortal wound on Nagash you roll 3+ on ceaseless vigil. Then if 3+ you make save roll fot morghasts, 1-2 you must allocate wounds on Nagash, so you make rolls for Nagash.

 

Study each of the relevant rules carefully.  You'll see that they all trigger upon a wound being allocated, in which case you pick an ability, execute fully, then choose another if applicable and so on.

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Killax said:

Id certainly recommend Legion of Night for Terrorgheists  

Man loves his ambushing TGheists lol

[AverageBoss]

4 hours ago, smucreo said:

Nice! I'm getting mine tomorrow. In the meantime I tested my list against my Tzeentch playing friend. The list is this one:

He was using the typical skyfire list with a Gaunt on Balewind, a Lord of Change, some pink horrors and 30 tzaangors. Highs and lows were:

- The morghast did absolutely nothing hahah they failed a charge and got shot down immediately after by his gunline + the lord (and yes, I failed lots of saves, considering I was running Morghast Archai) so I couldn't really see how strong they were.

- One unit of skeletons got literally melted in one turn by the charging tzaangors, who in turn fell after I debuffed their bravery using overwhelming dread + a banner. Overall it was really annoying to see my skellies go away in one turn but really satisfying to return the favour  

- The dogs were really helpful, they took a lot of focus out of my struggling main line for a while. Ultimately, though, they fell and when they did he was able to focus the key targets down in a couple of turns.

- Arkhan and the necromancers did do a lot though, their spells were super helpful. Arkhan in particular saved my ass against the Gaunt Summoner spell, unbinding it every single time hahah he was also a mortal wound machine with the Soul Harvest spell, I even got the locus on it one time!

- The ossific diadem really did nothing that remarkable for me... what ended up helping my survivability a lot was the gravesites, I managed to get my remaining skellies into the area of effect of three and when the regen kicked in I was able to regain 20 guys in one single turn! 

Overall, the game was really cool. Could have been a lot closer if the Morghast could have been able to get the charge off on the LoC or at least hadn't failed almost all the saves, but hey whatever! If I had to change something I would add more dogs and probably sub the morghast for a terrorgheist, although I'd probably go for Legion of Sacrament instead of Grand Host allegiance then. The 5+ regen never really got into play honestly so I don't think I would miss that much, plus with all of this I'd be able to add 5 more dogs and a Banshee or a Corpse cart to the list, and to use the better artifacts Sacrament has. Oh, another thing I didn't really like was the Orb spell. If I could change it I'd go for something like Decrepify on Arkhan, or some other debuffing spell.

Still, I'm probably going to play at least one or two more games before swearing off the Morghasts, since I really like the models and I want to give them a fair chance.

You might try Harbingers with halberds.

[Richelieu]

5 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

What about deathless minions?

Mortal wound allocated to nagash > trigger DEATHLESS MINIONS save > Morikhane save > trigger Ceaseless vigil attempt > allocate wound to Morghast Archai > DEATHLESS MINIONS SAVE > trigger Eben-Wrought Armour save > mortal wound is finally suffered.

Its not clear how a normal save would work. I guess you are allocating the save, so Nagash could use his 3+. Then, if it fails, wounds are allocated. This step is not 100% clear, but it seems like you could allocate to deathless minions first for a 6+ per damage, then failing that, the 3+ to the Morghast. Now, this is wound allocation, not a save so the Morghast would not be able to roll its 4+ armor - but being a wound was just allocated to a death model, that's another 6+ Deathless Minions. So that would be:
(3+) > 6+ > 3+ > 6+

And each mortal would be saved at 6+>4+>3+>6+>5+

I'm not a math guy - whats the % now?

My apologies, I totally forgot about deathless.

New probabilities are 13.9% chance that Nagash will suffer a mortal wound that is allocated to him, 15.4% chance a Morghast Archai will suffer the wound and a 71.7% chance that it gets saved by one or the other.

Normal save would be exactly as you described, just make sure to factor in the damage subsequent to Nagash's 3+ armor save.

The math itself is fairly simple if you can frame it correctly in your mind.  Think about the sequence of events that had to occur for the Morghast to suffer the wound.  

Nagash failed deathless, and failed Morikhane and succeeded on vigil and Morghast failed deathless and failed eben wrought armour.  So then you just take the individual probabilities of each of those events occurring and multiply them together.

[bsharitt]

I just remembered I had some Mantic skeletons and zombies, so I do have the batteline units to run the legions with my mostly night haunt army. I haven't gotten to taken them out for a spin since I've gotten the battletome, but a guy at the shop tonight has some nightnaunt stuff running with the new war scrolls. The Cairnwraith and Hexwraiths look a lot more relevant now. Previously the hexwraiths have been decent to run across the board to grab and objective quickly or tie up an enemy in combat away from where you wanted them the be. The problem was that for as fragile as they were when they got into combat, they didn't hit that hard, but now the mortal wounds on 6's does help. Sure they still fall apart and won't hold an objective for long, but they have a much better change of actually wrecking the unit you throw them at rather than holding them up for a turn or two. Cairne wraith is similarly a lot scarier. 60 points and can do two mortal wounds on a 6? That's not bad. I was already paying 60 points to basically make him "Deathless Spirits" beacon, so some more damage output is pretty nice. I'll be interested to get the Knight of Shrouds in there to start getting mortal wounds on a 5+. Overall it's nice that Nighthaunt has something to hang its hat on other than ignores rend now that everything is handing out mortal wounds(and no point increase!). Being able to get damage on to enemy models has always been my biggest issue with Nighthaunt, so it's nice to see that fixed in the battletome.

[Malakithe]

It looks like all the Nighthaunt stuff has a MW trigger on 6+ now which is really nice dmg boost. Nighthaunt doesnt get any bonuses are far as the new book goes though. 

The Knight of Shrouds could have a place in a pure Nighthaunt list since its the only hero with a command ability. Its good bad his warscroll is terrible out side of being a floating CA to buff other Nighthaunt units

[Undeadly]

5 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

It looks like all the Nighthaunt stuff has a MW trigger on 6+ now which is really nice dmg boost. Nighthaunt doesnt get any bonuses are far as the new book goes though. 

The Knight of Shrouds could have a place in a pure Nighthaunt list since its the only hero with a command ability. Its good bad his warscroll is terrible out side of being a floating CA to buff other Nighthaunt units

Yeah, to be honest, I see little reason not to run the Knight of Shrouds as your general for when it comes to NH allegiances. His ability is simply way too good to pass up, especially now that Carin Wraiths and Hexwraiths get that Frightful touch ability.  Plus, you know, for a faction like Nighthaunt where the problem usually comes from the fact that the infantry has a hard time hitting in the first place.

[Feche90]

Has anyone noticed that is no longer possible to revive one blood knight per turn (standard changed)?  I think this really nerf them. 

What do you guys think?

[Malakithe]

15 minutes ago, Feche90 said:

Has anyone noticed that is no longer possible to revive one blood knight per turn (standard changed)?  I think this really nerf them. 

What do you guys think?

Yeah thats been known for a while. I think everyone is on board with how much that sucks.

In other news...less then a day for US release! By the time i wake up ill just roll over and open the app to download wooooo

[WoollyMammoth]

7 hours ago, smucreo said:

Nice! I'm getting mine tomorrow. In the meantime I tested my list against my Tzeentch playing friend. The list is this one:

Nice battle report. That's list is about as nasty as we can hope for, and it sounds like you were not stuck in a totally one sided game which is great. As @AverageBoss said, do you think that the 3 dice charge on harbringers would have made a big difference?

 

3 hours ago, Richelieu said:

My apologies, I totally forgot about deathless.

New probabilities are 13.9% chance that Nagash will suffer a mortal wound that is allocated to him, 15.4% chance a Morghast Archai will suffer the wound and a 71.7% chance that it gets saved by one or the other.

Normal save would be exactly as you described, just make sure to factor in the damage subsequent to Nagash's 3+ armor save.

The math itself is fairly simple if you can frame it correctly in your mind.  Think about the sequence of events that had to occur for the Morghast to suffer the wound.  

Nagash failed deathless, and failed Morikhane and succeeded on vigil and Morghast failed deathless and failed eben wrought armour.  So then you just take the individual probabilities of each of those events occurring and multiply them together.

Thanks for the breakdown. Its a big investment but it looks like the Nagash battalion is definitely a way to run Nagash without fear of him dying in the first couple turns!

 

[Nullius]

8 hours ago, smucreo said:

Nice! I'm getting mine tomorrow. In the meantime I tested my list against my Tzeentch playing friend. The list is this one:

He was using the typical skyfire list with a Gaunt on Balewind, a Lord of Change, some pink horrors and 30 tzaangors. Highs and lows were:

- The morghast did absolutely nothing hahah they failed a charge and got shot down immediately after by his gunline + the lord (and yes, I failed lots of saves, considering I was running Morghast Archai) so I couldn't really see how strong they were.

- One unit of skeletons got literally melted in one turn by the charging tzaangors, who in turn fell after I debuffed their bravery using overwhelming dread + a banner. Overall it was really annoying to see my skellies go away in one turn but really satisfying to return the favour  

- The dogs were really helpful, they took a lot of focus out of my struggling main line for a while. Ultimately, though, they fell and when they did he was able to focus the key targets down in a couple of turns.

- Arkhan and the necromancers did do a lot though, their spells were super helpful. Arkhan in particular saved my ass against the Gaunt Summoner spell, unbinding it every single time hahah he was also a mortal wound machine with the Soul Harvest spell, I even got the locus on it one time!

- The ossific diadem really did nothing that remarkable for me... what ended up helping my survivability a lot was the gravesites, I managed to get my remaining skellies into the area of effect of three and when the regen kicked in I was able to regain 20 guys in one single turn! 

Overall, the game was really cool. Could have been a lot closer if the Morghast could have been able to get the charge off on the LoC or at least hadn't failed almost all the saves, but hey whatever! If I had to change something I would add more dogs and probably sub the morghast for a terrorgheist, although I'd probably go for Legion of Sacrament instead of Grand Host allegiance then. The 5+ regen never really got into play honestly so I don't think I would miss that much, plus with all of this I'd be able to add 5 more dogs and a Banshee or a Corpse cart to the list, and to use the better artifacts Sacrament has. Oh, another thing I didn't really like was the Orb spell. If I could change it I'd go for something like Decrepify on Arkhan, or some other debuffing spell.

Still, I'm probably going to play at least one or two more games before swearing off the Morghasts, since I really like the models and I want to give them a fair chance.

You can’t run Arkhan’s formation on Nagash’s legion. The Warscroll Battalions have the legion they belong to listed under their titles. Each is specific to their legion, as is he Red Keep formation to Soulblight. The other formations have their allegiance listed as Death and can be used in any legion. (I thought about running  Neferata’s legion in a Soulblight allegiance to buff their movement even more before I noticed you couldn’t do this). 

[AverageBoss]

20 minutes ago, Nullius said:

You can’t run Arkhan’s formation on Nagash’s legion. The Warscroll Battalions have the legion they belong to listed under their titles. Each is specific to their legion, as is he Red Keep formation to Soulblight. The other formations have their allegiance listed as Death and can be used in any legion. (I thought about running  Neferata’s legion in a Soulblight allegiance to buff their movement even more before I noticed you couldn’t do this). 

The title does not matter. All that matters is all the units within the battalion having the correct allegiance keyword. This is why you can run Fatesworn Warband under Slaves to Darkness, Tzeentch, or Chaos GA, despite it being an Everchosen battalion. Actually, it is impossible to run the battalion if you stick with Everchosen allegiance.

[AverageBoss]

[Killax]

Including Arkhan in Nagash's Grand Host is no issue. Including Nagash or specific Mortarch in one of the three Legions can be an issue.

As above, the only requirement Battalions have is that you meet the unit requirements. So you can run Arkhan's Battalion in GHoN or GA: Death for that matter.

[Malakithe]

Hmm...that potentially opens up some more strange combinations. 

I wonder if i can fit Arkhan's battalion in Legion of Blood...

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Hmm...that potentially opens up some more strange combinations. 

I wonder if i can fit Arkhan's battalion in Legion of Blood...

I guess it's even more fun when you put Arkhan in Ambush and have a Necromancer strut around with a claw so the family gets +2 on spells and stuff.

Having said that though...  I favour the choppins. 

When the ammount of Skeleton Warriors just ain't right:

[Xasz]

21 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Hmm...that potentially opens up some more strange combinations. 

I wonder if i can fit Arkhan's battalion in Legion of Blood...

You'll need Nefi as well then, as the rules force you to include the respective legion mortarch if ANY mortarchs are present within the legion.

[smucreo]

5 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

You might try Harbingers with halberds.

1 hour ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Nice battle report. That's list is about as nasty as we can hope for, and it sounds like you were not stuck in a totally one sided game which is great. As @AverageBoss said, do you think that the 3 dice charge on harbringers would have made a big difference?

Definitely, and it's probably the way I'm going next game. My thinking was that having an extra save vs Tzeentch could have been good, unfortunately it didn't do anything once haha 

7 hours ago, Undeadly said:

What did you not like about the orb?

Considering all the ranges of my abilities, command traits and battalion buffs I had to keep Arkhan relatively close to many of my own units, which meant I had little chance to get the spell off without hurting both my army and his army each turn I casted it. In contrast, if I had Fading Vigour or Soulpike for example those Tzaangor may not have been able to completely destroy my right-flank skeletons. Again, I probably should have just tried to position him differently, but against an army such as Tzeentch I feared for his life tbh so I played him (maybe too) cautiously.

7 hours ago, Killax said:

They arn't. Hexwraiths are Battleline for Nighthaunt but under the Legions your armylist has no Batteline.

Id certainly recommend Legion of Night for Terrorgheists  

Hahah He does love his ambushes yeah, I'd still try to stick with Sacrament/Grand Host for now since I really like Arkhan, but if they end up not working THAT well I can see myself saying ****** it and going full ambusher  

[Malakithe]

36 minutes ago, Xasz said:

You'll need Nefi as well then, as the rules force you to include the respective legion mortarch if ANY mortarchs are present within the legion.

Are you sure about that?

[choocheelo]

Mod edit - no pirating!!!

 

[kozokus]

11 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Are you sure about that?

Indeed, If you run at least one mortarch in any legion, you have to field the ruler of that legion and make him general.

Basically don't run any if you want to have a command trait and make the vampire lord general.

[Xasz]

31 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Are you sure about that?

Yes.

18 minutes ago, kozokus said:

Indeed, If you run at least one mortarch in any legion, you have to field the ruler of that legion and make him general.

Basically don't run any if you want to have a command trait and make the vampire lord general.

This.

Only exception is Grand Host without Nagash.

[Xasz]

10 hours ago, smucreo said:

Nice! I'm getting mine tomorrow. In the meantime I tested my list against my Tzeentch playing friend. The list is this one:

He was using the typical skyfire list with a Gaunt on Balewind, a Lord of Change, some pink horrors and 30 tzaangors. Highs and lows were:

- The morghast did absolutely nothing hahah they failed a charge and got shot down immediately after by his gunline + the lord (and yes, I failed lots of saves, considering I was running Morghast Archai) so I couldn't really see how strong they were.

- One unit of skeletons got literally melted in one turn by the charging tzaangors, who in turn fell after I debuffed their bravery using overwhelming dread + a banner. Overall it was really annoying to see my skellies go away in one turn but really satisfying to return the favour  

- The dogs were really helpful, they took a lot of focus out of my struggling main line for a while. Ultimately, though, they fell and when they did he was able to focus the key targets down in a couple of turns.

- Arkhan and the necromancers did do a lot though, their spells were super helpful. Arkhan in particular saved my ass against the Gaunt Summoner spell, unbinding it every single time hahah he was also a mortal wound machine with the Soul Harvest spell, I even got the locus on it one time!

- The ossific diadem really did nothing that remarkable for me... what ended up helping my survivability a lot was the gravesites, I managed to get my remaining skellies into the area of effect of three and when the regen kicked in I was able to regain 20 guys in one single turn! 

Overall, the game was really cool. Could have been a lot closer if the Morghast could have been able to get the charge off on the LoC or at least hadn't failed almost all the saves, but hey whatever! If I had to change something I would add more dogs and probably sub the morghast for a terrorgheist, although I'd probably go for Legion of Sacrament instead of Grand Host allegiance then. The 5+ regen never really got into play honestly so I don't think I would miss that much, plus with all of this I'd be able to add 5 more dogs and a Banshee or a Corpse cart to the list, and to use the better artifacts Sacrament has. Oh, another thing I didn't really like was the Orb spell. If I could change it I'd go for something like Decrepify on Arkhan, or some other debuffing spell.

Still, I'm probably going to play at least one or two more games before swearing off the Morghasts, since I really like the models and I want to give them a fair chance.

Thanks for the report, I'd argue that a balewind is mandatory for the magic heavy build.