Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Burf]

5 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm not seeing VLoZD as becoming the dominant/only general choice. Here's a rundown of all of the possible General choices:

• Nagash - probably not going to be the most competitive option but could be playable now
• Vhordrai - depending on points cost could be very good in a double dragon list
• Mannfred - I'm not sure why anyone would ever bring Mannfred except for aesthetic/fluff reasons
• Neferata - probably not a competitive choice now with her spell being nerfed. Her command ability is still powerful though, so I suppose one never knows.
• Arkhan - good general option in a magic heavy build
• Vampire Lord - cheap (presumably), good mobility, small enough to hide from enemy shooting, good command ability
• Wight King - gets dominated by the Vampire Lord. If this guy doesn't drop in points I'm not sure why anyone would use him. 
• Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon - hits hard but very expensive and impossible to hide. There are more efficient options for a hammer that aren't as huge a liability. His command ability is fine but he pretty much needs to use it on himself. If powerful buff command traits are  available then it's hard to justify taking him as the general as it will be very hard to both use him in his role and keep him alive.
• Coven Throne - I haven't been able to see the new warscroll yet but it sounds like the new command ability is very good. It's much cheaper than the VLoZD and isn't a combat beatstick so keeping it in the backfield isn't a huge waste.
• Unit champion - You sacrifice a command ability (aside from Inspiring Presence) in order to protect your command trait. If there is anything even approaching the level of Ruler of the Night this will be a very good option.

Personally I have a hard time imagining using a VLoZD as my general. I think I'm much more likely to use Vhordrai, a regular Vampire Lord, a Coven Throne, Arkhan or a unit champion.

Didn't they FAQ the unit champion thing?

[Gotrek]

3 minutes ago, Burf said:

Didn't they FAQ the unit champion thing?

Sort of, in ghb2017 it specifies that generals have to have the hero keyword

[someone2040]

1 minute ago, Burf said:

Didn't they FAQ the unit champion thing?

No FAQ, but under GHB2017 you need to make a Hero the General.

They also ensure under the allegiances section that only HEROES are eligible for command traits. So even in open play, making a non-hero the General won't offer them much (Other than possibly a cool Gargant army or something like that).

[angrycontra]

I gotta say that I'm really disappointed about the lack of point changes. Now on one hand I admire the fact that gw isn't making factions super strong just to sell models but would it really kill the balance to drop some points of those elite guys and heroes that don't benefit from that new healing mechanic. I mean, no matter how I look at it, mannfred is NOT worth 420 points (he is not some glottkin with 18 wounds for crying out loud) and neither are blood knights worth 260. I'm somewhat annoyed how almost ultra-conservative gw is when it comes to dropping points as if sky would fall if they would slash 20-40 points off from something. What ends up happening is that people just use proven and true models (vlozd for example) and ignore the rest. Just look at nurgle: nobody cares about beasts, nurglings, maggot lords, even pusgoyle blightlords (outshined by new drones) and some of the new heralds simply because they cost too much. Of course if you drop too much points, underused may become the new overused but not touching points at all changes absolutely nothing. In fact thanks to blood knight nerf, there's no reason to pick them outside legion of blood. Mornghasts are also most worth their points in legion of nagash.

Now I don't want to sound too negative. Obviously new rules, spells, etc. Are gonna improve death and there's always ghb2018 but still I wish gw would not be so afraid to cut those points when needed.

[Killax]

8 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Absolutely false. FEC lore is completely centered around the fact that a Ghoul King leads everybody. Rules-wise and you would be a fool not to have a Ghoul King in your army at all times, yet there are a ton of reasons not to make the GK your general. The same is true all over the place. Nagash is a lot more interesting when you make Arkhan the general...Making the Glottkin your general is foolish compared to protecting him with a tiny Harbinger general. Overall - the entirety of the named char limitations makes it a lot better to NOT make the named char your general, meaning in most cases when an all powerful lord-of-lords named general is on the field, you make some nameless side char your general instead. This new rule simply forces the named chars down our throats and the result will most certainly be (assuming the command traits are good) that all competitive games will be played without the hosts named leader in place of a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon. If the command traits are key, mine as well toss your mortarchs in the trash and  shine up your VL, because that will be the state of things. Nurgle did a good job making them useless, regardless there are a ton of non-named generals that are amazing so it doesn't even matter. In all of death we still have one solid non-named general, with maybe the Coven Throne making a decent second now. GH2016 really screwed up with the 5++ tied to non-named, we can only hope that this new book doesn't repeat past mistakes.

 

Feel free to explain what your problem is with the narrative confirming it works out that way.
1. There is no foolish general option.
2. Arkhan is a great general, thaking him and Nagash thakes up 1K+ points but if you want to do it, be my guest. It's downright silly to assume Nagash wouldn't be the general of an army where he's present. That makes no sence whatsoever.
3. Glottkin is a great general, both LVO and Auzzie tournament have him as one for several reasons. The biggest one is that his Command Ability is so great you don't mind handing over a Command Trait.
4. You want the Command Traits to change in appliance? Feel free to mail GW's design team about it. Every other army is working with the same limitations.
5. There isn't a single rule that forces you to thake Named Characters. 
6. Not all armies have to be lead by a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon.
7. What are you on about Nurgle? Do you think that their Named Characters are bad? If so, you couldn't be more wrong.

Your running on a ton of assumptions here, where no indication is given for. Feel free to be upset about how Named Characters don't have acces to Command Traits but don't for a moment think narrative logic isn't what is applied here. If Nagash is around, he leads. If his top generals are in their own Legions, guess what? They lead. They also benifit from all Legion Allegiance abilities. Therefor they are even stronger as they allready are.

My tip is to look into the clear strenghts portrayed and consider this well and before wether or not you Command Trait is relevant. Especially Command Traits are not a make or break deal for any army.

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

Now I don't want to sound too negative. Obviously new rules, spells, etc. Are gonna improve death and there's always ghb2018 but still I wish gw would not be so afraid to cut those points when needed.

There currently isn't a single Faction that has all perfectly costed/undercosted units.
Yeah, Blood Knights are on the expensive side, yet with the Blood Legion buffing them all around I cannot say they are unplayable. They are playable within Blood Legion.
In regards to Mannfred, he flies, he soacks wounds and heals. 420 isn't that much of a stretch considering what he does. At the same time there is some act going on as if every other faction out there has it better....

- With the Legions there are 33 Warscrolls to choose from, none of which have to be an Ally.
- There are tons and tons of uses for small Heroes in Death armies now, the likes of which arn't seen anywhere. Deathly Invocation is that good. Summonning is that good.
- No costs changes and more upgrades are applied on upgrades.
* Yes healing is removed from the banners but is back twicefold on Heroes, cheap heroes too.
* Again Legion bonusses apply to your whole army.
* Summonning can't be stopped, to give an indication of how good this is, check deep striking in 40K.

In reality I see a lot of sour comments here, I'd personally be happy that all those problematic GH2017 Keyword aspects for Death can be completely ignored now. I'd be happy to be able to automatically summon how I want to.  I guess the only way to resolve this is by looking at the Battletome with a fresh pair of eyes and actually work with it's massive strenghts instead of focussing on what it can't do. 

[tea_wild_owl]

on a side note: in his review Mengel states that you can take the knight of shrouds into a LoN army (which is described in the malign portents book)

[Gotrek]

To everyone saying we cant take the mournghul, did its warscroll change? Last i checked it still had the summon spell on it so theres nothing stopping us from just bringing it onto the table that way.

[Jamopower]

The whole comparison between the chaos knights and blood knights had a small flaw. Having played with and against chaos knights a lot, they rarely break trough the enemy on the charge, after which the difference between them and the blood knights is quite considerable.

[Killax]

11 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

To everyone saying we cant take the mournghul, did its warscroll change? Last i checked it still had the summon spell on it so theres nothing stopping us from just bringing it onto the table that way.

What Mengel said and mend is that they can't be part of the Legions, we allready knew that but there are several who missed out on that.
 

Quote

 The Grand Host and all three Legions are the main show here, and all of them state that you can only include models from this Battletome in them. That means no Tomb Kings, no Mourngul, and no Flesh-eaters, who keep their own Battletome.

I deem it very possible you can still Ally it, while it logically doesn't become part of Legions that are specifically designed with this book in mind.

Though quite frankly, with Terrorgeist and Zombie Dragon as great options I don't think you need a Mourngul either because of them.

6 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

The whole comparison between the chaos knights and blood knights had a small flaw. Having played with and against chaos knights a lot, they rarely break trough the enemy on the charge, after which the difference between them and the blood knights is quite considerable.

Jamo, I got to be honest here, in general the opinions are so pessimistic here that I don't know what else some players expected.
I agree that outside Legion of Blood the Blood Knights are about as good (thus bad) as Bloodcrushers. But because Legion of Blood excists I still see some role for them. The thing is really that 260 is so close to 300 that for a small bump you can get a much scarier Flying hammer.

In reality there isn't one army that solely consists out of great choices. If Blood Knights are that mediocre choice, so be it. I personally cannot see this as an issue whatsoever because it's very much akin to Valkia being a poor competitive model also. I am actually happy to be able to ignore Finecast models as a mandatory pick...  

[smucreo]

I've never used the deepstike mechanics that much in AoS, are there any specific restrictions regarding maximum number of points allowed to be put "on hold" sort to speak? And summoning from grave sites still means putting those units in reserve right? So no battleline can go there? 

Just asking for clarification!

[AverageBoss]

11 minutes ago, smucreo said:

I've never used the deepstike mechanics that much in AoS, are there any specific restrictions regarding maximum number of points allowed to be put "on hold" sort to speak? And summoning from grave sites still means putting those units in reserve right? So no battleline can go there? 

Just asking for clarification!

There are no limits as to what can be held in reserve. You can hold your whole army in reserve if you wish if you have the rules to do so.

Putting units in reserve is very different from setting aside reserve points. In the case of the former the units are in you list from the start so the units can still count towards your minimums. In he case of the latter, the units do not exist until summoned, so they do not count.

In the case of Stormcast, Liberators can be held in reserve for their deep strike rules and still count towards battleline. DoT cannot summon Pink Horrors mid game through magic in order to meet battleline requirements as those need to be met during list building.

From the sounds of things (though we have not seen full wording on the rules), our basic gravesite ability sounds more like a standard reserve mechanic (like the Stormcast rules).

[Grimnaud]

32 minutes ago, Killax said:

I agree that outside Legion of Blood the Blood Knights are about as good (thus bad) as Bloodcrushers. But because Legion of Blood excists I still see some role for them. The thing is really that 260 is so close to 300 that for a small bump you can get a much scarier Flying hammer.

A ZD/TG might be scarier, but their damage output is also as swingy as a tetherball in a windstorm. I ran a 3 ZD list at B&G, and there is a reason why I've since spent a month painting up Bloodknights.

On an entirely seperate note, I enjoy seeing all the numbercrunching in this thread. But lets keep in mind that while the comparisons between say Bloodknights and Chaos Knights might be depressing, it's also comparing apples to oranges, because we can't use Chaos Knights. The units need to be considered in context of the army, whith the role they can fulfill, and the buffs/battalions that are available.

 

What's gotten me really excited is this line from Mengels review: "There are a bunch of other good ones in there just like that, when if combined together, can leave a particular enemy unit at -1 attack, -1 to hit, -1 to wound, -1 to bravery, and -1 to their damage characteristics."

We could probably reconstruct the entire Deathwizard lore from those characteristics since we know about Soulstealer, and Fading Vigour is described as -1 A and -1d6 charge. But what you're looking at here is the potential for one of the best debuff armies in the game. That's pretty exciting.

Another great option is the deepstriking Night army, or the batallion Mengel hints to with ambushing Bloodknights and Prince Vhordrai. All in all I really doubt that the real competative strength of LoN is apparent from the warscrolls alone. The hope is still alive (or should I say undead  ) 

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Grimnaud said:

A ZD/TG might be scarier, but their damage output is also as swingy as a tetherball in a windstorm. I ran a 3 ZD list at B&G, and there is a reason why I've since spent a month painting up Bloodknights.

On an entirely seperate note, I enjoy seeing all the numbercrunching in this thread. But lets keep in mind that while the comparisons between say Bloodknights and Chaos Knights might be depressing, it's also comparing apples to oranges, because we can't use Chaos Knights. The units need to be considered in context of the army, whith the role they can fulfill, and the buffs/battalions that are available.

 

What's gotten me really excited is this line from Mengels review: "There are a bunch of other good ones in there just like that, when if combined together, can leave a particular enemy unit at -1 attack, -1 to hit, -1 to wound, -1 to bravery, and -1 to their damage characteristics."

We could probably reconstruct the entire Deathwizard lore from those characteristics since we know about Soulstealer, and Fading Vigour is described as -1 A and -1d6 charge. But what you're looking at here is the potential for one of the best debuff armies in the game. That's pretty exciting.

Another great option is the deepstriking Night army, or the batallion Mengel hints to with ambushing Bloodknights and Prince Vhordrai. All in all I really doubt that the real competative strength of LoN is apparent from the warscrolls alone. The hope is still alive (or should I say undead  ) 

Can only agree with you. As with the Dire Wolves vs Black Knight discussion of the previous page a lot of it also boils down to model/unit size and occupation. This is especially relevant for the new summonning rule that really and truely reminds me of deep striking in 40K.
Because the fact of the matter is, the bigger the model base size/unit size in bases, the more more difficult it becomes to summon unit A or B. Now I know this isn't relevant to the Blood Knight discussion ****** but yes, it does help that 5 Blood Knights are smaller based models vs 1 Zombie Dragon. Because the way the unit shape can alter has effect on functionality and board space denial, one of the most tactical apsects of AOS.

The second part I agree with is the number crunching of Chaos Knights vs Blood Knights. One thing of note here is also that Chaos has no way of keeping these units in reserve either. Because one of the Legions I'd be eyeballing is truely Legion of Knight with their ability to keep effectively non-summonable stuff in reserve also. What I like so much is what Mengel also mentions:
 

Quote

The Legion of Night adds +1 to the save roll of your Deathrattle units when they are within your territory (they're the bait for the next bit) and you can place up to 3 units off to the side when deploying and ambush them on from any board edge in any of your movement phases.

1. The add of save roll to Deathrattle units means you have a better resistance against Shooting in particular but in general means you have some amazing attrition options all things considered. This doesn't work well on Nighthaunt and the like but man... I would be playing undead if I was playing Death.
2. The second part is the most relevant part to me, which is the option to ambush Zombie Dragons and/or Terrorgeist and/or etc. This aspect again works very well towards protcting yourself from the Shooting phase and yeah, I like that aspect because it's one of the strongest aspects in the game.

Essentially what I also see for all Legions here is that you get to obtain the effect of Guttrot Spume but have to work a little bit more for it, however that effect in itself is clearly worth 100 points to me (would gladly give it if I had the option for Khorne to do something like it) which in turn to me means the Legions are just allround great from the getgo.
Truth be told, I wouldn't even worry about spells or artefact. The fact that Mengel confirms these are also great is only better  

The reality of the matter to me is that Legions are amazing to play but are indeed a step more towards GH2016 Death as GH2017's split Allegiances. Though personally (as I made a topic about that in last year also) I only think this is a logical evolution. As the options went from 3-5 units to all GW has barring FEC and that's a lot hehe.
 

[WoollyMammoth]

Mourngul will most likely be updated by FW quickly after release. 
I'm sure the Shrouds hero will be allowed in the grand hosts, either per his rules in the box or a FAQ. They just announced that they will be releasing book FAQs right away now.

@Killax
You said the rules always push people toward the narrative; they don't.  I don't feel like rehashing my points over again. If the command traits are really good we will see 9/10 death armies led by the VLoZD as usual and then I can say I told you so. I'm really hoping the command traits suck so that I'm wrong. and all of this is a moot point. I appreciate them trying to push more to the narrative in this book but not if you have to work around it to make a good list. 
 

1 hour ago, angrycontra said:

nobody cares about beasts, nurglings, maggot lords, even pusgoyle blightlords (outshined by new drones) and some of the new heralds simply because they cost too much.

You are jumping way ahead here. We have many years of seeing what Nurgle players are going to come up with. Nurglings are amazing objective holders. Lots of people are talking about Orghotts as a great option. Pusgoyle have the potential to have a double 5++ save  with a harbinger, which is going to make them insanely tanky. 

[Killax]

Just now, WoollyMammoth said:

@Killax
You said the rules always push people toward the narrative; they don't.  I don't feel like rehashing my points over again.

If the command traits are really good we will see 9/10 death armies led by the VLoZD as usual and then I can say I told you so. I'm really hoping the command traits suck so that I'm wrong. and all of this is a moot point. I appreciate them trying to push more to the narrative in this book but not if you have to work around it to make a good list. 

It only is another example of you not reading what I am saying. Not saying you should but if you are going to call me out for it, understand that I do not say rules always push people toward narrative. What I said was:

Quote

Being upset that if a named character from that Legion must be the general is just odd altogether. AoS understands its narrative. The same applies to several Named characters and their Battalions for a long while now.

So far all narrative has been the reason why certain rules for characters work the way they do. Khorgos Khul is another example of this, if you run him and the Goretide you must make him your general. 

Reality shows us that you don't really have a point to rehash. The Glottkin is taken as a General, no questions asked because his Command Ability is great. At the LVO event you went to that particular Nurgle list even became 7th...

It doesn't really matter if Command Traits are really good and if this leads to a VLoZD as a popular choice because there are several reasons to focus on Summonable units and their support instead. What it good enough/the best entirely depends on context for a complete army list, not some discussion about a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon in a vacume. As you don't always have the points or will to run one in the first place if you don't focus on it.
As mentioned in my previous quote. The Legions of Nagash are unique in that they are truely the first army that really cares about cheap characters also. Because of Deathly Invocation. Sure, you can thake a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, but you can also amp the Deathly Invocation numbers with cheap characters to make your Skeletons the Anvil and Hammer.

To make a good list now truely depends on which tactical route you want to enforce, magic, summonning, elites or attrition, it truely is all there. If you like the elite aspect you'll love the VLoZD but if you want to go heavier on magic and summonning the costs required to pay for a VLoZD can end up being too much.

Same is true for Khorne also. The Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster can be good, but only is so if you also bring sufficient Bloodletters. This does not mean it's the best, because those who want to focus on Bloodbound can easily and often better thake two Slaughterpriests and a Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut instead. This same preforance is now available to Legions of Death too. Elites vs Support, it's your choice, really.


 

[shadowgra]

23 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Orghotts as a great option

Orghotts is probably the worst unit in the entire battletome. And by far the worst leader Nurgle has along With tamurkhan and kazyk

[Killax]

The thing I really want to highlight again is that it's so subjective what the best picks are per Legion that there are not direct best picks anymore.

What I mean by this is yeah, clearly you want to have a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon for the Legion of Blood. - Vampires become really good in Legion of Blood.
Clearly you want Morghasts for the Grand Host of Nagash. - Morghast become really good in Grand Host of Nagash.
Clearly you prefer as much Wizards as possible for the Legion of Sacrement. - Wizards become really good in Legion of Sacrement.
Lastly you clearly want Summonable units and good Ambush units for Legion of Night. - Summonable units become really good in Legion of Night.

So what's truely best? What specific models you want to play, that's best.

For all intends and purposes, this is truely akin to Chaos. E.g. the Bloodsecrator is only a great piece if the rest of your army has the Khorne Keyword. Just tossing it into a random Chaos army make it 120 points death weight. It's no different in Nurgle either. Like Nurgle Daemons? Go GUO. Like Nurgle Mortal Hordes? Go Glottkin. AoS isn't rocket science.

 

[smucreo]

I'm eyeballing the Legion of Night too, while the Legion of Sacrament's potential is more apparent I feel the Legion of Night will need some testing before solid lists can start coming out of it, but if one does appear it can be brutal. So far a unit of 4 Morghast Archai with Halberds is really attractive to me, and some kind of Deathrattle battleline + a VLoZD. I still have to decide what other units to bring, but if my suspicion is correct and we get some artifact or trait for the Legion of Night that allows us to guarantee one charge out of our deepstriking units I'll be sure to try to stick it to the meanest thing I can find and try to build a competent rush list

[Killax]

Yeah it really depends on lists and model preforance

If you want 6 Wizard Heroes (Vamp Lords on Foot, Necromancers) I think the 9+ cast is bound to occur. This is powerful too for Invocation reasons.

The advantage of Legion of Blood in my opinion is there for the fans of Slaughter-all Vamp fans. A single unit of Blood Knights still seems viable there too for support and such.

Nagashs Grand Host Morghasts are not to be underestimated however, they too became just better in combat and seem like great medium infantry killers to me. Small platforms of very flexible support.

Those who embrace the Horde aspects clearly will want to look into Legion of Night, though doing this also means heroes are less face warping. It also is more attrition as offense based.

As before all look really good to me and they pretty much focus on all aspects Death non-FEC (non-TK) has to offer. Tons of options really.

Most books only cover a half of these aspects so yeah Im considering picking up LoN purely for a future project even. Just have to figure out if I can spend that much on Undead because the army is full of great deals but 40 Skeleton blocks still dont come cheap.

[smucreo]

7 minutes ago, Killax said:

Im considering picking up LoN purely for a future project even

Hahah we're slowly but surely drawing you in it seems... Attrition really does wonders, not only in-game  

[Killax]

1 hour ago, smucreo said:

Hahah we're slowly but surely drawing you in it seems... Attrition really does wonders, not only in-game  

So have to get this of my chest, went to a place where they had the book and it was sold allready.

But yeah, the more Im thinking about it the more potent LoN seem to be to me. Because while you can certainly place the Grave markers all over the battlefield a centerline placement of them all and then basically deploying 9" away from the centerline of the Battlefield seem like a very strong 'full deep strike' tactic to me. That is more or less so fast that it really doesn't care much for the Shooting phase other than to have (some) of your characters save.

As a result I don't really expect many movement buffs at all, but mainly because the rules don't have a particular cap on them either... Still a little bit sad I missed my chance to pick it up a little bit too early  

The Heralds do look nice too however! Certainly can recommend picking up the MP dice for Death fans, they really fit the Shyish vibe and all that.

[bsharitt]

18 minutes ago, Killax said:

Certainly can recommend picking up the MP dice for Death fans, they really fit the Shyish vibe and all that.

I know that there's the Stormcast and Khone dice, but have there been any other faction dice for AoS(seems that 40k is getting some for every codex release)?

[Killax]

5 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

I know that there's the Stormcast and Khone dice, but have there been any other faction dice for AoS(seems that 40k is getting some for every codex release)?

Yeah I dislike the Khorne dice with a passion. It's also a typical example of old GW vibes, you pay an arm and a leg for them and a shaker and well... It's not even remotely enough dice to do anything with

But there have been quite a lot of Age of Sigmar dice:

"Fate dice"

"Sylvaneth dice"

And then if you are a Nurgle fan of 40K too it's not too difficult to find Death Guard Nurgle dice still:



But certainly as many as 40K, that's true also. I believe together with the Stormcast and Khorne dice this is pretty much it.

I think the MP dice are the coolest of the bunch to be honest with you:

[bsharitt]

19 minutes ago, Killax said:

Yeah I dislike the Khorne dice with a passion. It's also a typical example of old GW vibes, you pay an arm and a leg for them and a shaker and well... It's not even remotely enough dice to do anything with

But there have been quite a lot of Age of Sigmar dice:

"Fate dice"

"Sylvaneth dice"

And then if you are a Nurgle fan of 40K too it's not too difficult to find Death Guard Nurgle dice still:



But certainly as many as 40K, that's true also. I believe together with the Stormcast and Khorne dice this is pretty much it.

I think the MP dice are the coolest of the bunch to be honest with you:

Forgot the wooden sylveneth dice, and was associating the tzeench with 40k only. I never did pick up those deathguard dice, I just don't see how they're balanced properly. I'm pretty sure I had some MP dice on my order of new stuff coming in. My FLGS usually gets their GW stuff in on Wednesday, so hopefully I'll have it all soon.

The real question is do I try to get my VLoZD and new Vargheists painted so they'll be ready to go with the new book for my games Friday, or do I finish out my Moonclan grots and hope I can get the cave shaman assembled, primed and painted by friday knowing I'll probably have to leave it over night between priming and painting.