Destruction presence in masters

[PlasticCraic]

2 hours ago, stratigo said:

I don’t think you’ll see moonclan soon. The herald is, in my estimation, a test model to gauge interest. If that succeeds, then you’re looking at roughly a two year time to go from concepts to release

Oof, I hope you're wrong.  Not disagreeing on the timeline, just hoping that they're already much further along it! 

You are probably right, but I hope not :-)

[meet.the.doctor]

7 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Oof, I hope you're wrong.  Not disagreeing on the timeline, just hoping that they're already much further along it! 

You are probably right, but I hope not :-)

I disagree with that. Moonclan doesn’t need new models. Just a few OP rules to put it back in the game. Like Bonesplitrerz did.

Make the moonclan pop up anywhere on the battlefield so we have the teleport(they can apear „from shadows”), use the doomdiver as fanatics launcher (with mortal wounds of course on 5+) and snipe everything on 50”, and if as teased the fungoid shaman can predict future- give him destiny dice (2+ ofc!) all of that keyword free and alliable by all destro, and we are back in top lists;)

[PlasticCraic]

23 minutes ago, meet.the.doctor said:

I disagree with that. Moonclan doesn’t need new models. Just a few OP rules to put it back in the game. Like Bonesplitrerz did.

Make the moonclan pop up anywhere on the battlefield so we have the teleport(they can apear „from shadows”), use the doomdiver as fanatics launcher (with mortal wounds of course on 5+) and snipe everything on 50”, and if as teased the fungoid shaman can predict future- give him destiny dice (2+ ofc!) all of that keyword free and alliable by all destro, and we are back in top lists;)

I bet you wouldn't say no to some plastic squigs though :-)

[meet.the.doctor]

Don’t need them;) I have all of the old ones, (excluding hoppers) plus Collosall waiting in line to paint. And just hope the Battletome will arrive in the second part of the year as my focus is now on my second love from the 90’s- Necromunda. It is soooo good. If AoS had the IGYG activation... It is 100 times more entertaining. Now I have only nightmares of rolling 90x 10mm dice for my Arrer Boyz;) and of a tournament I a going to play them in the end of the month.

Escher and Night goblins were the best things GW developed in the 90s..

[Ollie Grimwood]

I’d worry not Moonclan are already popular and possess a very AoS feel to the current miniatures. I suspect the only thing that would slow their release is the design and manufacture of a monster sized Squig/character riding monster Squig kit.  It might be a linked Grots book with Spiderfang though as they also fit very well with AoS 

[Sheriff]

One thing I find curious is the metal nose on the new moonclan hero... 

The common factors in the new model with existing goblin models are:

• mushrooms growing from head - already seen on fanatics models, so maybe new models/units will also have this theme
• squig on base - obviously already squigs but this has a new type of head, so hopefully a sign of new type of squig model to come
• metal nose - already seen on nasty skulkers in gitmob, so hopefully a sign that gitmob and moonclan will merge in some way (or just take the skulkers and bin the rest)
• mushrooms generally, but 2 distinct types - I reckon there will be a choice of which mushrooms you can gobble to get different abilities to suit the battle
• Moon stuff - probably a long shot but what about some new moon-related piece of scenery or nurgle-esque moon-cycle of abilities? 

Things not common:

• The dead beast on his staff - some sort of new cave monster? New beastie for the moonclan to prod into battle? 

[Fridge_Opener]

I've heard the little beast called a spore squig though I haven't a clue what that entails

[meet.the.doctor]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:35 AM, Sheriff said:

One thing I find curious is the metal nose on the new moonclan hero... 

The common factors in the new model with existing goblin models are:

• mushrooms growing from head - already seen on fanatics models, so maybe new models/units will also have this theme
• squig on base - obviously already squigs but this has a new type of head, so hopefully a sign of new type of squig model to come
• metal nose - already seen on nasty skulkers in gitmob, so hopefully a sign that gitmob and moonclan will merge in some way (or just take the skulkers and bin the rest)
• mushrooms generally, but 2 distinct types - I reckon there will be a choice of which mushrooms you can gobble to get different abilities to suit the battle
• Moon stuff - probably a long shot but what about some new moon-related piece of scenery or nurgle-esque moon-cycle of abilities? 

Things not common:

• The dead beast on his staff - some sort of new cave monster? New beastie for the moonclan to prod into battle? 

The Fungoid shaman reminded me of these guys:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/goblins-on-the-pitch/

Maybe this is the way the small brothers will follow.

[meet.the.doctor]

Ben Savva finished on 12th place...

I wonder if one drop was worth it. I was playing similar list sometime ago (only 40 Arrowboyz total) and decided to loose uselez shield boyz for morboyz and get rid of bonegrinz - one drop never gave me as much as multi shamans. Anyway Bonebrothers nor last! Congratulations

[Fridge_Opener]

Yeah he did well all things considered, be interesting to see how many destruction players show up at the heat next week. Hoping for a couple of ironjaws as they are our standard bearer army 

[PlasticCraic]

4 hours ago, meet.the.doctor said:

Ben Savva finished on 12th place...

I wonder if one drop was worth it. I was playing similar list sometime ago (only 40 Arrowboyz total) and decided to loose uselez shield boyz for morboyz and get rid of bonegrinz - one drop never gave me as much as multi shamans. Anyway Bonebrothers nor last! Congratulations

I know what you mean.  Personally I think the Command Trait is underrated (can give things like Morr Boys a lot of mortal wound output against the 2+ rerolling 1s stuff).

But the big thing is the prevalance of grind meta.  So many armies can pop up and pin you in your deployment zone, then they walk onto the objectives and stay there.  Being able to get moving and onto the objectives before they do that is the only way you've got a chance I would have thought?

That being said, Fyreslayers and Vanguard still both beat him, so maybe it's not worth it to weaken your army for a situation you will lose regardless.  Do we know anything about how those matchups played out?  Vanguard was Duality of Death which is a scenario where this wouldn't really work against an opponent with any kind of range - something like Border War (or whatever name it goes by now) would be more feasible maybe?

[svnvaldez]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

But the big thing is the prevalance of grind meta.  So many armies can pop up and pin you in your deployment zone, then they walk onto the objectives and stay there.  Being able to get moving and onto the objectives before they do that is the only way you've got a chance I would have thought?

1 drop rukk is mandatory in a truly competitive event. Take the mission battle for the pass (or total conquest or any progressive scoring most models in x inches) against any of those lists with sayl and unkillable slaves of darkness, seraphon, fyreslayers, murderhost, or V. Wing.

If any of those other armies take first turn they would walk on the objectives and use one unit to horizontal line you with an IP unit 3 inches from your army. They then don't even need to roll dice other than saves and the game is over on objectives.

If your 1 drop you can do it to them instead, albeit with a worse save or try to alpha strike shoot.

The bonegrinz rules could just be renamed pay 140 for one drop and blah blah the rest sucks.

Must include right now and the first thing that will be removed from competitive rukk lists once and FAQ of V. Wing or point adjustments to hordes happens.

[svnvaldez]

Please ignore the following any potential LVO opponents lol.

If Savva would have done the following:

The one drop would have allowed him to get on the objectives turn 1 and start praying (or start slow playing ;p)

V. wing could have still shot the characters off or ground off the arrows but he could have had 1 character right behind the first and IP on a unit.

Would have given him a chance, only possible because he out drops Jack.

And I realize Savva didn't have two boar mages but Nicky M.'s Facehammer list is the best rukk list imo. 1 boss, 3 boar mages, 100 arrows, 1 drop rukk, 1980 points.

[Malakree]

One question I do have (@Chris Tomlin), with the way it's looking at the moment would Ironjawz players just be better off swapping to Maggotkin since it's similar stuff just with better movement, better saves, no bravery issues and ability to actually throw out mortal wounds.

Second question is how do you fix the Vanguard Wing? Is it based around stacking the stupid +save buff from the dude with a lantern, would preventing abilities with the same name from stacking help.

[PlasticCraic]

10 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Second question is how do you fix the Vanguard Wing? Is it based around stacking the stupid +save buff from the dude with a lantern, would preventing abilities with the same name from stacking help.

I think the first thing would be specifying they drop 9" away, which at least brings it in line with the likes of Fyreslayers.

Beyond that, one quick (and imo elegant) fix would be "wholly within" range of the Prosecutors.

[someone2040]

13 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

I think the first thing would be specifying they drop 9" away, which at least brings it in line with the likes of Fyreslayers.

Beyond that, one quick (and imo elegant) fix would be "wholly within" range of the Prosecutors.

Probably many ways to tackle it, but changing the wording on the battalion itself is necessary fix IMO. The only other thing would be to point it so stupidly overpriced so nobody ever uses it.

Certainly I don't think the intent for this was ever to be dropping 30 Liberators straight into combat with the enemy army.

[svnvaldez]

Hopefully Jack made a point this weekend and Ben Curry will call Ben Johnson and say "Hey old buddy... do me a solid for old Ben and Ben Bad Dice sake and tell your GW coworkers to ask top players more questions when writing rules. Okay thanks bud"

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, someone2040 said:

Probably many ways to tackle it, but changing the wording on the battalion itself is necessary fix IMO. The only other thing would be to point it so stupidly overpriced so nobody ever uses it.

Certainly I don't think the intent for this was ever to be dropping 30 Liberators straight into combat with the enemy army.

It should say "wholly within 9" of the prosecutors and more than 9" away from the enemy". That 9" deployment distance and wholly within should be applied to all setup movements like that unless they have super restrictive setup conditions.

[Mincemeat]

A thought about all these teleport heavy armies grabbing objectives like there's no tomorrow: could an additional rule of one to the tune of 1 "teleporting" unit per phase be plausible? I know it's hard to define a teleport and this might cripple some armies, so perhaps only one teleport should be allowed from each army in the first battle round? 

Of course we still have the issue of things like Sayl and his flying chaos warriors of doom... 

[Chris Tomlin]

13 hours ago, Malakree said:

One question I do have (@Chris Tomlin), with the way it's looking at the moment would Ironjawz players just be better off swapping to Maggotkin since it's similar stuff just with better movement, better saves, no bravery issues and ability to actually throw out mortal wounds.

Second question is how do you fix the Vanguard Wing? Is it based around stacking the stupid +save buff from the dude with a lantern, would preventing abilities with the same name from stacking help.

Honestly, whilst looking through the new book a lot over the last couple of weeks, it’s been really hard not to think like that. 

If you take away any aesthetical or sentimental reasons and just look at the rules etc, then I think you’re right. Nurgle does do most of what we (Ironjawz) do, only better. The Blight Cyst and associated buffs really make Blightkings a legitimate threat and they are now cheaper than Brutes (incidentally they do have a 4th wound which makes us better at hitting them back now)!

I guess there’s no real equivalent to the Maw-Krusha but with a plethora of ways for them to dish out mortal wounds it’s not like these armies will be lacking in the damage stakes. 

Perhaps we are getting a little left behind. I’ll admit after having both myself and @Sangfroid representing Ironjawz at last years Masters it was a little saddening to see minimal Destruction representation this year (But good on @Age of The Erstwood for flying the flag!). It is a shame that Nicky didn’t use his Bonesplitterz as well tbh.

We’ll see though. I don’t feel it’s all doom and gloom. Whilst I’m not planning on attending many events this year, I do want to start playing more regularly and have a number of ideas for Ironjawz and am confident I can remain competitive in the majority of match ups, though as ever with Ironjawz will have to accept there will be times I have to take a kicking!

[Sangfroid]

The issue for me is teleporting armies (or summoning) needs to have a blanket 9” away condition that way it’s odds against they won’t make the charge and then your counter is hard hitting counter attack armies (aka Ironjawz) with a screen of chaff in case they do make th charge. Vanguard Wing is only as good a) in a great players hands like Jack or b) because it drops into combat. If it had to land 9” then 30 buffed up liberators would still be tough to chew thru but at least they wouldn’t be as flexible to score with no chance to sto them. 

[broche]

15 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

1 drop rukk is mandatory in a truly competitive event. Take the mission battle for the pass (or total conquest or any progressive scoring most models in x inches) against any of those lists with sayl and unkillable slaves of darkness, seraphon, fyreslayers, murderhost, or V. Wing.

If any of those other armies take first turn they would walk on the objectives and use one unit to horizontal line you with an IP unit 3 inches from your army. They then don't even need to roll dice other than saves and the game is over on objectives.

If your 1 drop you can do it to them instead, albeit with a worse save or try to alpha strike shoot.

The bonegrinz rules could just be renamed pay 140 for one drop and blah blah the rest sucks.

Must include right now and the first thing that will be removed from competitive rukk lists once and FAQ of V. Wing or point adjustments to hordes happens.

Interesting point,

I've been asking myself the question: how much is worth choosing who go first?

You could play a 3-5 drop kunnin ruk army and still get to choose in most of your games!

 

 

 

[Infeston]

I have the feeling that the meta was certainly more "balanced" towards all grand alliances before the GHB2017 than after that. I really don't understand some of the design changes for Destruction in GHB2017. 

I mean D6 extra movement was a good trait. But compared to teleporting all around the battlefield and all the other traits of some armies it seems justified that Destruction gets something to compensate for the lack of movement.

GW always goes a bit too far. If there would be an imaginary balance scale it seems like GW only switches from one extreme of the scale to the other end instead of tuning things up and down in a reasonable manner. They often switch from overpowered directly to underpowered instead of balanced.

[broche]

47 minutes ago, Infeston said:

I have the feeling that the meta was certainly more "balanced" towards all grand alliances before the GHB2017 than after that. I really don't understand some of the design changes for Destruction in GHB2017. 

I mean D6 extra movement was a good trait. But compared to teleporting all around the battlefield and all the other traits of some armies it seems justified that Destruction gets something to compensate for the lack of movement.

GW always goes a bit too far. If there would be an imaginary balance scale it seems like GW only switches from one extreme of the scale to the other end instead of tuning things up and down in a reasonable manner. They often switch from overpowered directly to underpowered instead of balanced.

Problem with d6 move is it was really tedious. In that sense it's a good fix (new trait is much faster to play)

I don't think generic destruction is not worse than other generic allegiance. It's weaker than specific allegiance (which is fine). Problem is destruction lack from number of choice and generic synergie, which make a mixed destruction a uncompetitive army if you compare to a mixed order for exemple. 

So you are left with Ironjawz (pretty good ability), Bonesplitterz (mediocre ability, but good spells) or Beastclaw (i don,t know them at all). 

Of course none of those allegiance are as good as Tzeench, but they are certainly on par with let say Seraphon or Free poeple. Which is fine if you want a competitive list, but it will be really hard to pull a tournament winning list.

 

[Dan.Ford]

15 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

Hopefully Jack made a point this weekend and Ben Curry will call Ben Johnson and say "Hey old buddy... do me a solid for old Ben and Ben Bad Dice sake and tell your GW coworkers to ask top players more questions when writing rules. Okay thanks bud"

I do not think this will happen , this list has been out for while. Jack won at Facehammer  with a very similar list , is just got better. ALOT better,

The Lord C add a +1 to save to libs plus the Staunch D so 2+ re roll 1's .  All good.

Now the improved bit

Lantern of the Tempest: unit within 6":  missile attack of 6 or more must re roll hit (on the libs)

On the Libs : Hurricanum +1 hit and Damned +1 and maybe +1 to hit vs  +5 wounds models

Bless weapons prayer; ( he has 3 in case you fail the +4 roll) It does an extra attack with 6 or more roll with a hit.

Vanguand Wing ability : on 6 or more on a hit roll make 2 wound rolls. 

So 48 Warhammer and 12 great hammer attacking :

Hitting on 4,s and any 6,s or more with any of the above buffs is lots of wounds, 

Oh and this can also be do too , let say Judicators 

Aos is also moving and changing . It will a pillow fight in a mirror match . 30 libs vs 30 libs (with their saves)