Let`s chat: Anvilguard

[Ignatius "Nate" T]

1 hour ago, CB42 said:

Taking a step back from all the anger, I think writing off Anvilgard the city as uncompetitive after using a very, very uncompetitive list is probably wrong - you can make an uncompetitive Slaanesh list or an uncompetitive Skaven or Daughters of khaine list, and that wouldn’t mean that the factions are bad - it means your list doesn’t utilize the strengths of those factions.

 

The two main power points we get out of Anvilgard are Vitriolic Spray through spell portal and Scourgerunner Chariots in the battalion. The posted list had neither of those. There are other things that are good to have, but those two things are what you build around when you want to take down a tournament.

 

 

And I do think Anvilgard has the potential to build tournament winning lists. I’m planning on switching from slaanesh to anvilgard once my Chariots, Hurricanum, Corsairs, and heroes are assembled because I believe in the strength of Anvilgard.

 

Agreed entirely. Though I will add that I think that the Command Ability is also super important, particularly with horde style lists. You can essentially sit and tank wherever you'd like, forcing the opponent to kill every last model before they are out of combat. Not hard to do with some units, but a unit of 40 Corsairs is 280 points. Even if it holds your opponent for 1.5-2 turns, that's tremendous value.  

 

Not to mention 40 Corsairs with Vitriolic Spray and a nearby fleetmaster will murder pretty much anything in the game in 1-2 turns.

[Kierdale]

So, what’s the essential core of a good Anvilgard list?

sorceress 100pts

 spellportal 70pts

(Some Darkling Coven to sacrifice...say, 20 dark shards?) 200 points....or can we get away with 10 for 100 points?

...?

[CB42]

1 hour ago, Kierdale said:

So, what’s the essential core of a good Anvilgard list?

sorceress 100pts

 spellportal 70pts

(Some Darkling Coven to sacrifice...say, 20 dark shards?) 200 points....or can we get away with 10 for 100 points?

...?

You’ll probably want at least one of the following 2 things:

* Sorceress (90) with Vitriolic Spray

* Celestial Hurricanum with battlemage (280) OR a second Sorceress (90)

* Umbral spell portal (70)

* 1 unit of Darkshards or Bleakswords (100 or 90)

340-540 points.

The above is probably core. Hurricanum is just so good it’s hard not to take, Sorceress and a darkling coven unit to make that 8+ Vitriolic Spray into a 6+ (get it 72% of the time) and cast it anywhere on the board with portal.

This spell opens up a TON of options. You could build towards Freeguild Crossbowmen getting Bridged forward to shoot at whatever has no save as if they hadn’t moved. You could build towards a dreadlord on dragon and drakespawn chariots for spamming mortal wounds and getting a buff to the dreadlord. You could build towards Longbeards with shields moving up the board and use the Warden King and our free D3 command points to get extra attacks to kill whatever now has no save. Point is, once you’ve got your bases covered with the portal -> no save, a lot of things without a lot of rend suddenly become useful and interesting.

 

Other part that’s a good place to start:

* Charrwind Beasthunters battalion (120)

* Fleetmaster (60)

* 3 x 10 Black Ark Corsairs (3 x 80) (but you can add more Corsairs if you’d like, like 2 x 40 and 1 x 10 if you want a battleshock immune army that’s getting 4 attacks per, after spending 2 cp of our D3+2 we’ll get first turn - this would be 640)

* 2 x 3 or 3 x 3 Scourgerunner Chariots (2 or 3 x 150)

* 0-1 Kharibdyss (0-170 - same thing as Black Ark Corsairs, these want the +1 attack from the Fleetmaster)

720 points minimum.

 

This is for my monster slaying scourgerunner Chariot list. This isn’t as necessary for a competitive Anvilgard list, but it’s powerful. Even without the no save spell, 6-9 Chariots with +1 to wound monsters at 2 attacks, (2+ or 3+)/2+/-1/D3 and D3 mortal wounds on a 6 to hit... that’ll make any monster focused list tremble in its boots. And it also reduces our drops down below double digits, which is nice.

 

You’ll want to pick one or both of the two core things above - if you don’t want either, you should probably play a different city, because these are the best* things we have going for us.

 

*Edit: we do have some other cool things. You could put the Drakescale Cloak on an Anointed on Frost Phoenix to give it (when someone casts a spell) a 3+ save, 4+++ FNP, then a 5+++ FNP, and enemy melee is -1 to wound, and have something almost as hard to kill as Gotrek!

*Double edit: You could also use Sap strength and Sorceress warscroll spell and Pha’s Protection from Hysh Battlemage to stack penalties to hit on a unit, and then add Frost Phoenix for an additional to wound penalty.

Edited October 12, 2019 by CB42

[NinthMusketeer]

My biggest issue with Anvilguard is it seems like any build they have could be used with a different city and perform better.

[zilberfrid]

4 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

My biggest issue with Anvilguard is it seems like any build they have could be used with a different city and perform better.

I don't quite agree. Putting out wounds is easier to do in other cities, but taking out the saves isn't calculated in that. If you really want to go deep into reducing bravery, Anvilgard is by far the best in that, (-5 bravery is quite easy to attain).

The issue I see with it:

- Vitriolic spray play might be good, but if the opponent has many low cost units, you don't have enough time to kill everything. It also locks quite a bit into sorceresses and coven troops, which decreases options.

- Tearing down bravery is simply not competetive at the moment.

[NinthMusketeer]

Super spray is just one spell; it can fail, it can be unbound, it can be out of range. Using a spellportal helps with the last bit but doubles up on the first two, eats another cast, and costs points.

Like you say, bravery bomb is not competitive. Nurgle and LoN can do -5 bravery nerf builds easily, but that simply isn't seen.

[Chumphammer]

Character assassin strike:

Assassin in with shadow warriors (with artifact of 6's to hit are d3 wounds, stacked with its normal ability)

Sorcerer with spell portal

Sorcerer with spray

3x10 shadow warriors 

Cast portal out of range (+2 if some unit to stab) and set up portal on character to use spray 

Shadow warriors pop out (in cover if possible) and shoot them off the table. If lives charge union with assassin

Not guaranteed but can turn 1 kill a lot of big threats

 

[Kyriakin]

When the counter-argument to claims that a faction isn't very good is "but we have a good spell, and the chariot is pretty good as well", it is perhaps not the best sign.

[CB42]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

When the counter-argument to claims that a faction isn't very good is "but we have a good spell, and the chariot is pretty good as well", it is perhaps not the best sign.

This is obviously disingenuous. The counterargument is “we have a game changing, matchup defining spell (any matchup with a focus on saves, like Stormcast, bronzed flesh Khorne, and Deepkin turn 1) and the Chariot in the battalion is also incredibly efficient and matchup defining (any matchup with monsters, like Slaanesh, Khorne, Sylvaneth, Nurgle, Skaven, FEC, Legions, Phoenix or Griffon based Cities of sigmar, Mawcrushas, Etc). Also, we have a good artifact and another good spell.”

 

The point is that Anvilgard has fewer flashy, obvious mechanics benefits (like Hallowheart or Living City), but what it does have can be extremely effective and efficient against most of what’s in the meta right now.

Edited October 12, 2019 by CB42

[Greed]

Ist the Battalion the 120 Points worth? I mean 40 Cosairs are cool... But 40 ,10 , 10 ... The 2x 10 feel like wasted.

[JackStreicher]

On 10/11/2019 at 8:30 PM, CB42 said:

I think writing off Anvilgard the city as uncompetitive after using a very, very uncompetitive list is probably wrong

 

True and I agree. I mentioned before that the shown list only represents a List I posted in the Private WhatsApp group and it was a game against s.o. Freshly recruited to AoS, so nothing competetive there.

on another note I already mentioned that the game above wasn’t the only game I had with AG and I said I know about the vitriolic spray bomb. Imo a good army has to have synergies. A single spell for a one-trick pony and a battallion that‘s only good against monsters doesn‘t make a good army, it makes for one very limited combo, nothing more.

Edit: also buffing the Crossbows with +1 to wound (Darkshards) or +1 to hit (Freeguild Crossbows) for example is better against saves of 5 and 6 (30-70%) and is only a Little worse (~ 20%) against a 4+ save which makes the use of the vitriolic bomb even more niche than it already is. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by JackStreicher
Typos and an Edit

[CB42]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

also buffing the Crossbows with +1 to wound (Darkshards) or +1 to hit (Freeguild Crossbows) for example is better against saves of 5 and 6 (30-70%) and is only a Little worse (~ 20%) against a 4+ save which makes the use of the vitriolic bomb even more niche than it already is. 

300 points of Freeguild Crossbows, standing still, with +1 to hit from hurricanum against an enemy with a 5+ save: 17.8 damage at 24”.

 

300 points of Darkshards moving and then shooting, with +1 to hit from Hurricanum against a 5+ save: 16.7 damage at 22” (16”+ 6” move).

Note that 24” and 22” do not reach the enemy if you’ve been given top of first turn and the two sides deploy 24” apart, like in 5 or so of the 2019 GHB missions.

300 points of Chariots moving and then shooting, with +1 to hit from hurricanum against a 5+ save: 15.5 damage at 28” (16” + 12” move).

 

So 300 points of Chariots gain extra effective range and a ton of mobility in exchange for 2 less damage than Freeguild Crossbowmen, who have to spend the entire game standing still and if they’re charged are useless for the rest of the game.

 

I think Darkshards are interesting, but really require the Sorceress command ability to run and shoot to be a consistent threat.

 

If you’re going to take into account, say, Tempest’s Eye +1 to wound (which, while guaranteed, only affects units wholly within 12” of the general), you should take into account our no save spell (which can affect any unit in the game).

[NinthMusketeer]

Anyone can take the chariot; that isn't unique to Anvilguard.

[JackStreicher]

29 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Anyone can take the chariot; that isn't unique to Anvilguard.

That’s my point, as well as the hurricanum. Usually you won‘t get much benefit from the vitriolic spray combo unless you target 4+ saves and better.

so the question is: an army without synergies for a semi-strong vitriolic spray or an army that‘s mostly just as good including more synergies and buffs.

Edited October 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[CB42]

6 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Anyone can take the chariot; that isn't unique to Anvilguard.

And not everyone can get 9 Chariots into a battalion that gives +1 to wound against monsters and makes the army lower drops. Corsairs and Fleetmaster are also solid for their points.

If you’re building around Chariots, you probably want to go Anvilgard, same as if you’re building around demigryphs go Hammerhal or Helstorm Rockets go Greywater.

[CB42]

6 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

so the question is: an army without synergies

I don’t think you’re arguing in good faith when you keep saying this. You can’t say “except for the synergies the army has, the army had no synergies” and expect to be taken seriously.

[JackStreicher]

33 minutes ago, CB42 said:

I don’t think you’re arguing in good faith when you keep saying this. You can’t say “except for the synergies the army has, the army had no synergies” and expect to be taken seriously.

Is there anything that improves your ordinary troops directly via Auras, magic etc. ? No. -> no synergies. No Corsairs getting better due to AG, no required buffs, nada.

the only synergy is the awful battallion.

seriously. 🙂 

i wish it wasn’t this way but I won‘t bend facts so I can justify to play my (lore and style-wise) favorite army.

 

edit: in what world are units (Corsairs and fleetmasters) that do nothing at all worth their points if you can‘t even buff them in a meaningful way (you could burn valuable CP to give them +1 Attack which won‘t fix their horrible to hit and to wound values and which does not compensate for it)!? By Sigmar...

Edited October 13, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Frowny]

I do think corsairs will be better in other cities. Tempests eye to get up the field safely or Phoenicium for the +1/1, which improves them a ton. The best for anvilguard seems the extra t1 cps for some kind of t1 play or maybe the monster traits if you want to play a lot of hydras or dragons or something 

[NinthMusketeer]

2 hours ago, CB42 said:

And not everyone can get 9 Chariots into a battalion that gives +1 to wound against monsters and makes the army lower drops. Corsairs and Fleetmaster are also solid for their points.

If you’re building around Chariots, you probably want to go Anvilgard, same as if you’re building around demigryphs go Hammerhal or Helstorm Rockets go Greywater.

Running chariots in units greater than 1 is already reducing their effectiveness; you are taking -1 to hit on 6/9 of those chariots in exchange for +1 to wound against certain targets that the opposing army may not even have any of. The way you described is weaker than if you dropped the battalion and ran the chariots individually. And you still failed to address my earlier point, that the spell can fail, can be unbound, can be out of range. 

 

I know I'm being harsh here, but I am firmly against luring players into 'trap' armies that set them up for failure. The reality is that as things stand Anvilguard is an inferior set of allegiance abilities.

Edited October 13, 2019 by NinthMusketeer

[CB42]

7 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Running chariots in units greater than 1 is already reducing their effectiveness; you are taking -1 to hit on 6/9 of those chariots in exchange for +1 to wound against certain targets that the opposing army may not even have any of. The way you described is weaker than if you dropped the battalion and ran the chariots individually. And you still failed to address my earlier point, that the spell can fail, can be unbound, can be out of range. 

 

I know I'm being harsh here, but I am firmly against luring players into 'trap' armies that set them up for failure. The reality is that as things stand Anvilguard is an inferior set of allegiance abilities.

Running 12 in groups of 3 costs as much as running 10 in groups of 1, and dramatically reduced your drops. Hurricanum also means that the +1 to hit is often unnecessary. But the cost decrease from running in groups of 3 is worth it on its own.

Portal+Spray, cast by Sorceresses from outside unbind range, gets the spell off through the portal 70% of the time. 70% is a damn good success rate for something that is game changing.

You think it’s a trap army; I think that I can win a tournament with Anvilgard. I’ve already put my money where my mouth is and purchased 2000 points of new stuff. But rest assured, I’m not trying to lead anyone astray - I honestly, truly believe that I can build an anvilgard list that just counters most of what people bring to tournaments and is efficient enough to table the ones it doesn’t hard counter.

[NinthMusketeer]

Fair enough. Let us know how it goes.

[Ignatius "Nate" T]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Is there anything that improves your ordinary troops directly via Auras, magic etc. ? No. -> no synergies. No Corsairs getting better due to AG, no required buffs, nada.

the only synergy is the awful battallion.

seriously. 🙂 

i wish it wasn’t this way but I won‘t bend facts so I can justify to play my (lore and style-wise) favorite army.

 

edit: in what world are units (Corsairs and fleetmasters) that do nothing at all worth their points if you can‘t even buff them in a meaningful way (you could burn valuable CP to give them +1 Attack which won‘t fix their horrible to hit and to wound values and which does not compensate for it)!? By Sigmar...

The immune to battleshock CA is a huge bonus for them that you can't get in other cities. Do you disagree?

 

Do you have another unit that would benefit from the Vitriolic spray spell better point for point?

Edited October 13, 2019 by Ignatius "Nate" T

[NinthMusketeer]

You can get battleshock immunity from other cities; Hammerhal does it in your territory and Hallowheart has a command trait to bubble it out. Super spray is still just one spell; assuming it goes off without a hitch, which as CB42 established is a 70% success rate under ideal conditions (after paying points for a spellportal), you kill one unit very dead. There's another army that is very good at killing one unit a turn: Kharadron Overlords.

[The Merchant Prince]

Vitriolic spray clearly pairs best with units with a high weight of attacks where you're not paying for extra unnecessary things like rend and whatnot. 

On that note I think it'd pair very very well with gyrocopters:

You can get 3 for 180 pts and they get 1 attack per model (from a single unit) within an 8'' radius with their steam guns. 

[Korwey]

I played a little AoS back when it was released 1ed but I'm back thanks to the CoS-Avilgard  faction  So I'm not up to date with the game.
What do you think  (semi-competitive) of Kharadoron Overlords as Allies? I'm converting a Frigate for a monster-hunter vessel and  wondering if it will see some play.