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Arkiham

Aftermath of the GT final

132 posts in this topic

Rhellion    237
1 hour ago, stato said:

Yeah thats what i saw. Scoring is odd, heavy paint bias, but I like that each tournament is different, it forces people to adjust, adapt or improve in different areas. Death would still be top 10 on pure scores which is the opposite of what everyone is saying they can do.

<this is Michigan GT results not the UK GT Final incase we are confusing anyone>

I was unhappy with the paint scoring, but at least the winner (me) was the person who went 5-0 at the event.

Not because the scoring was so much (the rubric was posted in advance), but because I didn't think it was fairly applied to all the armies equally.

Edited by Rhellion

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Rhellion    237
23 hours ago, Sheriff said:

I'm still baffled how people can paint armies so quickly - is it at the expense of quality? e.g. 'dipping' or just doing a few base colours? Don't people take any pride in Their Dudes' appearance? Is this done generally or just for tournaments?

Or am I just inefficient taking 5 hours to paint 7 goblins nicely?

I'm glad that tournaments give points for nice painting and sportsmanship, in fact I don't think I'll attend any that do not do this. (I'd double the sports and paint points if it were up to me!) 

I painted my Tzeentch army in a month and scored near max paint, almost earning a nom at my latest event. I've gotten good at "Speed painting quality" with the airbrush... and painting 3 hours a night for a month.

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Sheriff    344
3 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

I painted my Tzeentch army in a month and scored near max paint, almost earning a nom at my latest event. I've gotten good at "Speed painting quality" with the airbrush... and painting 3 hours a night for a month.

I'm just jealous of other's efficiency xD

Jokes on them though, I enjoy sitting around painting for hours. 

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Seraphage    48
5 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

I painted my Tzeentch army in a month and scored near max paint, almost earning a nom at my latest event. I've gotten good at "Speed painting quality" with the airbrush... and painting 3 hours a night for a month.

Wow cool. I love painting and I wouldn't change it BUT I am a fairly slow painter and airbrush definitely seems a really fast way for awesome results. 

Gonna try one when I finally finish my 1st army and proceed to another probably :D

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Sheriff    344
1 minute ago, Seraphage said:

Wow cool. I love painting and I wouldn't change it BUT I am a fairly slow painter and airbrush definitely seems a really fast way for awesome results. 

Gonna try one when I finally finish my 1st army and proceed to another probably :D

I'm not clear on what using an airbrush entails, from I've gleaned its basically a teeny tiny blowtorch but with paint-mist rather than flames? 

I do need to come up with a christmas gift idea for myself... 

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RuneBrush    1,253

I've used an airbrush for a lot of years now and would say that it can speed things up in certain circumstances once you've become proficient with it.  Unlike a normal brush there are so many things that can go wrong or not work properly and it's probably twenty-fold more expensive to start off than a decent quality sable brush.  Probably 95% of my Bloodbound are painted by hand, the exceptions being the pale flesh and Skull Cannon and I don't think an airbrush would have saved a lot of time.  That said, I did do a fair bit of my Megaboss with the airbrush and saved a lot of hours on the blending of the Skull and layers of armour.

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@Sheriff I just picked up my first airbrush a couple of months back. I haven't used it that much because i am busy painting witch elves and it only helps with the primer...

There are alot of advantages and its not that hard to pick up and use at a simple level and get amazing results. Probably the most important thing to learn before you start using it is how to clean it properly!

You can crack out a 10 man unit of stormcast or space marines (or similar armoured model) to a good tabletop standard in an evening with no problem at all. 

You can prime indoors which is really helpfull if you live in the UK with our lovely weather.

Its really amazing for big models - particularly tanks or awkward pieces like the cauldron of blood - I got 5 IG armour pieces base coated and camo striped in one session the other week...

It's more than amazing for painting fleshy stuff (bloodletters, ghouls, horrors, plague bearers) or etherial stuff (spirit hosts, hexwraiths) you can almost do the whole model with the airbrush. I would happily sit down with 30 bloodletters and expect to finish them in 1 session.

You can create very natural coulour blends by undershading and putting a wash over the top so its great for cloaks, banners etc.

You can start using techniques like zenithal highlighting at the priming stage to set your self up for great results on models you will mostly paint with a brush.

Its honestly not that hard to learn the basics and start getting value out of it right away so I would absolutely recommend getting one.

 

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Elmir    89
4 hours ago, Killax said:

I think that fixing a single sub-faction can be enough. With the prime example being how Blades of Khorne was created and since the introduction of Bloodbound basically cherry picked X ammount of choices from Daemons of Khorne to be functional, Y ammount of choices from Slaves to Darkness getting said Bloodbound Keyword, Z ammount of new Bloodbound models appearing (note actually the minority in Blades of Khorne are new models) and on top of it all gaining a Monster (Slaughterbrute of Khorne) from Monsters of Chaos.

So most certainly fixing a single sub-faction can be enough if the Keywords required are put onto the right Warscrolls. Many people seem to forget that the actually only new models in Blades of Khorne are the Mighty Lord of Khorne, the "Gorechosen" which basically consist out of 8 models, of which 6 are actually unique Hero entries, the Blood Warriors and the Bloodreavers. The complete rest of this faction has become a faction due to Keyword placement and presenting them in a logical single Battletome.

When we look at Deathrattle, Deadwalkers, Deathlords and Deathmages they could/should easily be capable to be combined into one Battletome. Which with a handful of new releases and Allegiance rules would be capable to present itself in a competitive manner.

I completely agree with you that not every player wants to be a tournament player :) . But again what Death is suffering from is having too many sub-sub-Factions. If Khorne wasn't an Allegiance you also couldn't for the Khorne armies we know now. (MANY Khorne Warscrolls have logically changed so they match their expected Keywords) Khorne armies present itself as competitive without much (if at all) ranged support, durability or teleportation.
Just having new models means nothing in the context of results. Look at Fyreslayers and Kharadron, preforming okay, despite being completely new lines. Then look at Seraphon, preforming really well, despite having no new models since the inception of Age of Sigmar (like Death).

Couple of points: 

- I think it's highly unlikely that they will release a book (they even said deathrattle will come after X-mas on an event/twitch iirc. ) that can mix units like the chaos god books could.  Unless they start shifting keywords around like mad of course...  I do agree that consolidation of death into a single "large" tome (like DoT/BoK) could work wonders. I  don't see it happening though  if they specifically said that it'll be Battletome: Deathrattle. 

- Death (as a grand alliance) is now drafted from A SINGLE warhammer army after they made TKs legacy. They made TKs legacy by isolating them through keywords, meaning almost no synergy with the other Death factions (taking away the deathrattle keyword, taking away the abilty to summon them, introducing new legionaire keywords, stopping all death mages from healing the monsters etc).  On top of that, TKs were one of the more powerful options for tournaments. They nerfed Setra lists (and other powerful units like necropolis knights) into the ground through insane point hikes. 

- This means some armies (like Seraphon) that get drawn from a single old Warhammer army, will have almost as many  unit warscroll choices in total as death does now (again, if you scrap the TKs like they did).  Death (the whole remaining, available models) has 41 unit warscrolls in grand total to select from.  Seraphon (as a subfaction) has 31... Couple that with Seraphon being a lot more well thought out (in terms of synergies) and they will ofc do better. 

In summary: Death suffers a lot because of lack of unit choices as much as the splintering in ridiculously small subfactions. 

 

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Sheriff    344
33 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

@Sheriff I just picked up my first airbrush a couple of months back. I haven't used it that much because i am busy painting witch elves and it only helps with the primer...

There are alot of advantages and its not that hard to pick up and use at a simple level and get amazing results. Probably the most important thing to learn before you start using it is how to clean it properly!

You can crack out a 10 man unit of stormcast or space marines (or similar armoured model) to a good tabletop standard in an evening with no problem at all. 

You can prime indoors which is really helpfull if you live in the UK with our lovely weather.

Its really amazing for big models - particularly tanks or awkward pieces like the cauldron of blood - I got 5 IG armour pieces base coated and camo striped in one session the other week...

It's more than amazing for painting fleshy stuff (bloodletters, ghouls, horrors, plague bearers) or etherial stuff (spirit hosts, hexwraiths) you can almost do the whole model with the airbrush. I would happily sit down with 30 bloodletters and expect to finish them in 1 session.

You can create very natural coulour blends by undershading and putting a wash over the top so its great for cloaks, banners etc.

You can start using techniques like zenithal highlighting at the priming stage to set your self up for great results on models you will mostly paint with a brush.

Its honestly not that hard to learn the basics and start getting value out of it right away so I would absolutely recommend getting one.

 

Sold! I will use it for my fleshy squigs once I start my moonclan army. 

(You should work in airbrush sales) 

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TheWilddog    110
16 minutes ago, Auticus said:

The one thing that keeps me from heavy use of an airbrush is that cleanup is a chore.  You have to keep that thing very clean or it clogs.

I second this. I love my air brush but I hate, hate, hate cleaning it.  It gets left on my shelf a lot because I don't want to have to properly take care of it. Lazy I know but true.

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Sheriff    344

Just how much of a chore are we talking about here? Taking out the trash level of chore, or grocery-shopping level of chore? 

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13 hours ago, Equinox said:

Sorry, not the best image but it is floating around on Facebook.  

FB_IMG_1507676729941.jpg

Ah, MS Office 2010, oh how I miss thee!  Probably the best version of Office to grace Windows.  Oh wait, let me turn off the IT portion of my brain.  *click*

Always neat to see how Painting scores can affect Overall score at events.  I especially like how "Best Painted" got enough points to count for more than two victories.  As someone who won "best painted" at a few events before, this makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside ^_^

1 minute ago, TheWilddog said:

I second this. I love my air brush but I hate, hate, hate cleaning it.  It gets left on my shelf a lot because I don't want to have to properly take care of it. Lazy I know but true.

I will third this!  The prep-work and cleanup are way too time consuming, even if I did have a good place to really use it.  I've played with one some when I was fancying a Horus Heresy 30K army, but I could not find the color I wanted in an airpaint, so I had to attempt to find a proper ratio of thinner-paint-water to get it to work.  I never did get it to work, as I always made it too thin.

3 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Just how much of a chore are we talking about here? Taking out the trash level of chore, or grocery-shopping level of chore? 

Think assembling a tiny pewter model before and after all the painting, and then watching how much paint is in your brush as you use it.  And if you can't find the color you want in "air" form, then you may not be able to even use it.  Proper ventilation is an absolute must, and you will want to wear disposable gloves during the painting.

It really works for some folks, but not at all for some others, myself included.

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TheWilddog    110
6 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Just how much of a chore are we talking about here? Taking out the trash level of chore, or grocery-shopping level of chore? 

Yea, I am not going to lie, it is a pretty big chore (to me at least).  Whenever paint goes through the thing it needs to be taken apart and cleaned.  You kinda get used to taking it apart and cleaning it but I never enjoy it.

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Killax    1,255
1 hour ago, Elmir said:

Couple of points: 

- I think it's highly unlikely that they will release a book (they even said deathrattle will come after X-mas on an event/twitch iirc. ) that can mix units like the chaos god books could.  Unless they start shifting keywords around like mad of course...  I do agree that consolidation of death into a single "large" tome (like DoT/BoK) could work wonders. I  don't see it happening though  if they specifically said that it'll be Battletome: Deathrattle. 

- Death (as a grand alliance) is now drafted from A SINGLE warhammer army after they made TKs legacy. They made TKs legacy by isolating them through keywords, meaning almost no synergy with the other Death factions (taking away the deathrattle keyword, taking away the abilty to summon them, introducing new legionaire keywords, stopping all death mages from healing the monsters etc).  On top of that, TKs were one of the more powerful options for tournaments. They nerfed Setra lists (and other powerful units like necropolis knights) into the ground through insane point hikes. 

- This means some armies (like Seraphon) that get drawn from a single old Warhammer army, will have almost as many  unit warscroll choices in total as death does now (again, if you scrap the TKs like they did).  Death (the whole remaining, available models) has 41 unit warscrolls in grand total to select from.  Seraphon (as a subfaction) has 31... Couple that with Seraphon being a lot more well thought out (in terms of synergies) and they will ofc do better. 

In summary: Death suffers a lot because of lack of unit choices as much as the splintering in ridiculously small subfactions. 

 

I agree with your first point, for me the use of Keywords can be made really simple though and unlike Age of Sigmar's inception I think the designers have hit the nail with 40K's 8th. What this boils down to is that I feel Keywords should visually start to make sence aswell. E.g. Arkhan or Nagash should have Nighthaunt Keywords in my opinion. Likewise I feel Archaon has almost all Keywords required except Slaves to Darkness (while he leads them, narratively speaking and looks akin to them, visually speaking).

The fact that they are drafted from a single army is indeed the likely cause for them needing each other and thus highlighting how much they want each other's Keyword to function well. It's also a logical consequence for most armies. Brayherds would be better with Monsters of Chaos and Warherds in their faction. We also have an example where it isn't split up and still manages really well competatively speaking in Seraphon. IF Serpahon was split up into Saurus, Skink and Monsters of Lustria the same issue would have appeared for them.

As above, I agree with the summary. In that same vein, this is also why I believe that a fix is relatively simple and I wouldn't count out GW for going with that choice either. Simple design often leads to the best design. Age of Sigmar is a halmark of what simple design can lead to, a great game :)

Edited by Killax

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RuneBrush    1,253

It could be worth starting a post about airbrushing on the Painting sub-forum :)

For me cleaning the airbrush out is a 5 to 10 minute task.  Run cleaner through, strip down, clean out with a brush, reassemble and run cleaner back through.  My airbrush is permanently set up so I've got everything to hand to strip and clean without needing to get up.  Occasionally it needs a deep clean where I put it through an ultrasonic cleaner, but that's probably only every year or so.  Some paints are also a pain though and you'll find you need to clean them out prior to putting another colour through, which is where you start to lose any speed benefits.  I've been toying with the idea of videoing how I go about stripping down and cleaning because it's certainly something that improves with practice.

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Arkiham    1,227
4 hours ago, Sheriff said:

Just how much of a chore are we talking about here? Taking out the trash level of chore, or grocery-shopping level of chore? 

Visiting the in-laws kinda chore

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stato    169
8 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Visiting the in-laws kinda chore

Really?  maybe its because im a mechanical engineer but my Iwata Neo seems really easy to take apart, at least the 2 parts youd ever need to for cleaning.

Ive only used it 5 or 6 times and only ever needed to take the Nozzle cap off to clean it out.  I took the nozzle itself off once when i used way too thick paint, but generally there is no need.  I run warm water through it to clear the bulk of the remaining paint, then run through some airbrush cleaner to ensure no water remains in the brush.  Blowing air back into the cup when rinsing out to make sure ive actually cleared all the paint, no idea its sensible but certainly helps agitate any lingering paint and no ill effects ive seen yet.

Ive stripped it completely since (is this an engineer thing, taking things apart for no reason) and found no paint anywhere, but then in use i do rinse/clean it like this often rather than just constantly topping up the cup otherwise your just letting paint thats in there dry and thats the issue we are trying to avoid. Helps that i spray in the kitchen with a spray booth and extractor so the sink is to hand and i dont even need to disconnect from the compressor.

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Dave Fraser    125

My airbrush cleaning process:

1. Finish painting (very important, don't stop mid way through, it's  a real waste of time).

2. empty any excess out the cup.

3. Take airbrush off quick release and go to sink, use tap to wash the cup clean and pull back trigger to wash as much through nozzle as possible (I'll blow on top of a cup full of water to do this).

4.  spray water (or thinners if you're wealthy) until it's basically just spraying water out not paint.

5. spray through with foaming cleaner.

6. spray through with thinners so nothing that could damage the seals is left in the airbrush.

7. drop the mic & walk.

Total time takes <5 mins

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Lysandestolpe    625
On 10/12/2017 at 10:29 AM, Dave Fraser said:

My airbrush cleaning process:

1. Finish painting (very important, don't stop mid way through, it's  a real waste of time).

2. empty any excess out the cup.

3. Take airbrush off quick release and go to sink, use tap to wash the cup clean and pull back trigger to wash as much through nozzle as possible (I'll blow on top of a cup full of water to do this).

4.  spray water (or thinners if you're wealthy) until it's basically just spraying water out not paint.

5. spray through with foaming cleaner.

6. spray through with thinners so nothing that could damage the seals is left in the airbrush.

7. drop the mic & walk.

Total time takes <5 mins

I do this except i clean my with airbrush cleaner instead of sink water (i dont trust that there is no recidue from pipes). Last of all i deassemble the brush, give scrup with a toothbrush and pipecleaners and boom. Adds on an extra minute or two depending on how quick you get. 

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On 09/10/2017 at 5:09 PM, Ben said:

OMG! There was a 2nd Legion player! Does anyone know Matt McDonnell??

 

@Ben He is a Liverpool local not sure how active is on the boards etc

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Ben    1,423
10 hours ago, JustPlay-Ritchie said:

@Ben He is a Liverpool local not sure how active is on the boards etc

Get him to come to Blood and Glory!!

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On 14/10/2017 at 12:46 PM, Ben said:

Get him to come to Blood and Glory!!

Haha pretty sure he ain't going he gets a to few a events sure you will catch him about!

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