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Nico

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Blog Comments posted by Nico

    Crispen

    Posted · Edited by Nico

    I might take a Starseer as well for the rerolls.

    One problem for Seraphon is the lack of -2 rend in general and especially at range.

    I remain unconvinced by the Bastiladon's damage output for the cost, especially as the range isn't great either unless you summon it in.

    I'm struggling to find any bargains in the list (other than possibly Skinks and regular Saurus).

    One massive problem is that I feel summoning is needed in the list, but in the current meta having only one Slaan to cast spells seems reckless - this leaves the options of having 2 (not ideal as the Slaan's own Spell is only valuable vs Daemons) or taking Kroak (who is marginally tougher on the assumption that they take turn one and shoot him). This pushes you to take an Eternity Warden as well.

    I would have thought that slamming down a Wall of Temple Guard with the regular Slaan's command ability would be a good way to go against the pew pew hordes.

    Annoying that Kroxigor don't have a rend -2 weapon, Seraphon don't have much need of crowd clearance.

    • Like 1
    Thomas Lyons

    Posted

    Quote

    We had a pretty straight-forward clash right under the boughs of the tree but there wasn’t enough time to really widdle the Fyreslayers down enough, especially with 50+ battleshock-immune models with a ward save popping up late during turn 3.  The game ended with a win for Kenny after a grueling fight. 

    Are you sure that wasn't a giant volcano?

    Sounds like a great game and what a way to start the weekend!

    I was surprised by the Vulkite cost too. I cannot help preferring them over the Hearthguard Berserkers sadly, although I should try them in 20s. 

    • Like 1
    Tronhammer NZ

    Posted · Edited by Nico

    Also - this army falls apart on Escalation! It is 10 Drops (which is one of the optimal numbers) - so 4, 4, 2, but you've still only got the following on the table:

    • Chaos Marauders (x10) - 60
      • Mark of Nurgle
    • Putrid Blightkings (x5) - 180
    • Chaos Warriors (x10) - 180
      • Mark of Nurgle
    • Chaos Warshrine - 200

    You have to deploy 4 units and you have to deploy the first 3 Battleline Units. Probably the Warshrine since it will give off a 6+ Ward just by sitting there and looking pretty. You could put Archaon down for Inspiring Presence (but then you risk him getting killed and that's another autoloss).

    If you're opponent can do some kind of alpha strike off the bat (e.g. Fyreslayers and 30 Vulkites - inherent battleline), then you've lost the game unless the opponent fails a pretty reliable charge. They will squash all your models and then they can retreat onto the objectives.

    Similarly if your opponent takes the initiative in Battleround 2 (unlike the other battleplans this is often not the right thing to do since you might be sticking your units onto objectives only for the opponent to bring on the ultimate counter punch), then they can bring on yet more alpha strike or more pew pew and just take off all of these units. Normally this wouldn't be so bad as your follow up would be able to counter punch, but here your second wave is just a load of Defence and a hero who does significantly less damage than Mannderp in melee (unless you get lucky with Slayer of Kings).

    Another illustration of how amazing the battleplans are in AoS! 

    Incidentally in my really amazing game against Bryan Carmichael @Bryan C at The Warlords with Archaon's Furry Friends (linked the battle reports in post above), I had a similar problem since I was running an offensive buff stack machine using Little Archaon. I deployed 3 units of Clanrats round one and the wrong hero (should have put down the Verminlord who had the Crown of Conquest for making one unit immune to Battleshock - I could have kept him alive). I tried to bait some Prosecutors, but they did rather well being literally the hard counter to Clanrats - 2 damage is horrible!

    My counterpunch was spectacularly and utterly brutal, but I wasn't quite able to claw it back. Fascinating game. Keen on a rematch one day. 

     

     

    Tronhammer NZ

    Posted

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    In new metagames, pure agressivity 

    Things are going that way in AoS - pew pew seemed to peak at The Warlords (using Archaon's Furry Friends, I faced 6 Gunlines out of 6 - including two 90% Prosecutor armies - impossible surely?).

    Beastclaw Raiders have since emerged from painting tables all over the place, drunk on Battlebrew.

    I think Les Martin's frankly beautiful execution of Household (no retreat!) plus Ancient plus Gnarled Warrior plus Oaken Armour to kerb stomp the Kunning Rukk - with zero risk (no mystic shield or shield of thorns cast rolls to fail) - is going to swing things again. I cannot wait to hear the Facehammer podcast which is just out I believe @Lez  

    It's far too easy for Destruction to combine BCR plus Moonclan plus Kunning Rukk (optionally plus Spiderfang) - it's very hard to build a counter to all of these together (with an army that's still competitive in a normal game) without a sideboard (and I'm not particularly a fan of sideboards - dual lists are better than sideboards, but mono list is probably my favourite atm).

    You can still build some insane bunkers (as this post illustrates), but the problem is moving them onto multiple objectives and/or the fact that many buffs require you to have taken a hero phase, so there's a window of opportunity for an alpha strike to cripple you. This seems like a good place for the game to be in. 

    If your opponent clicks and realised how futile trying to attack will be, they are forced to play for the objectives and can often still win.

    I remember hearing how Terry Pike beat the Kroak Temple Guard bunker (also virtually invincible unless you have mortal wounds on tap or lots of -2 rend) by zipping forward, killing the scoring units (at the time - Kroak couldn't score) and then pulling back and waiting until the clock ran out and he won.

    Hampshire Hammerers

    Posted

    Enjoying reading this so far! Good battle reports.

    This is astonishingly bad rolling!

    Quote

    Even with ruler of the night in effect on the horrors they suffered 25 unsaved mortal wounds!

    The maximum is 36 if all 12 dice were 5s and 6s, before one third of them get saved by ward saves. The average pre ward saves is only 24, so you should have taken 16. Ouch!!!!

    Quote

    Throughout the game we each held onto the flanking places of power, and the game was lost for me when Andy finally controlled the centre objective with his Stormfiends. 

    Presumably you mean this loosely - they were blocking off your heroes from the centre objective or protecting his hero as he scored on it.

    Quote

    I decided to go first & began my Hero phase before realising too late that objectives were only scored on turn two onwards.

    This was Border War right? You were right the first time (I'm 95% sure). You do score from Batteround One (in each player's turn) in Border War (or more correctly in Ghoul Patrol). It's Escalation where you don't score in Battleround One! I think a tick box chart for each battleplan is a good idea.

    Tronhammer NZ

    Posted

    Quote

    I don't think it would be a fun army to play against, for sure. Order Draconis is far more so in that respect.

    Definitely think that the Order Draconis army would be more fun to play and probably to paint. Sadly even though the Archaon model is sensational I need a tournament list to motivate myself to build it.
     

    Quote

     

    Thank you for the quality feedback by the way @Nico, very much appreciated! I am delighted we have a game of such depth that even cheesy combos like this have very sound and reliable counters. Hopefully it means that TOs won't feel the need to regularly 'comp' build diversity for the sake of balance (though I can see how enjoyment of games could become an issue - other lists spring to mind on that charge).


     

    You're very welcome. I was starting to feel I was being a bit overly negative on it. There's a good Vince Venturella video about why stacking defence in games can lead to less fun for both players (Warhammer Weekly with@Thomas Lyons) - it was a while ago. AoS has been quite sparing with the ward saves and other defensive combos which is a great thing (and the best ones usually leave you at least the option of retreating and hoping for a double turn or retreat plus run onto an objective).

    I love a good combo more than most #onlythefilthful. As you say the game does feel like a hard counter/rock paper scissors game (it reminds me of Starcraft I in a good way - meant as a compliment) - Wrathbros beat buffed melee monsters; chaff beat Wrathbros; Gaunt Summoner beats large blocks; artillery beats Gaunt Summoner; Kroak plus Temple Guard beat MSU; Flesh Eater Courts plus avoidance beats that.... 

    • Like 1
    Tronhammer NZ

    Posted · Edited by Nico

    There was another thread on this combo. It would be better with Little Archaon as you say.

    It's good in theory. The strongest counter will be a single drop army (or just fewer than you) which comes down and nukes 3-4 of the Harbingers before your first hero phase - whereupon they win almost automatically. They are 7 wound heroes with a 4+ save from memory. Might be able to fit all of them in cover in a bubble, but not necessarily.

    Things like Kurnoth Hunters and Durthu's shooting attack spring to mind. Ditto artillery. Ditto Judicator or Prosecutor Spam. Even Fyreslayers! You might have the 6+ from the Warshrine.

    Alternatively they can do the same, but just kill all the bodies (again easy to do with just a 4+ save (or worse) and maybe a 6+ ward before your ward saves go up. You'll also be subject to Battleshock (no Criwn of Conquest yet to save you). Then your invulnerable heroes will struggle to outnumber the enemy on objectives.

    The point (as always) is to ignore Archaon, never attack him and just retreat away and block him from moving where he wants to. His base is so derpy big that he cannot fly over a line of Grots without running. I've asked for the Chaos Helipad Warscroll to assist matters.

    If they don't/cannot take first turn, then depending on Battleplan they can try to flood objectives with more bodies and outscore you early (you are slower than virtually any opponent). Other than Take and Hold, you are going to have to split up to get a major.

    Your melee output is abysmal. Several armies can get a 35/36 save against your entire army or large portions of it. Treelord Ancients can do it against your entire army (subject only to Archaon getting lucky with Slayer of Kings). I would take Warriors of Chaos rather than Blightkings - perhaps with the -1 rend weapon choice. They are a bit faster and you don't need to stack defence any more.

    Sylvaneth are going to stomp all over this (with abundant -1 to hit debuffs). They can either alpha strike you or just get in place faster and match defence for defence. Ditto Fyreslayers!

    Plaguetouched only works in the Combat Phase. I've tried really hard to come up with credible lists featuring Big Archaon, Varanguard and/or Plaguetouched, but they all end up being meh. I've got a secret one, but reliant on Compendium units), so not keen on it now. 

    Death stealing the 5+ ward save is like a giant flag saying don't play Nurgle (notwithstanding my own poor record against Nurgle which is down to playing more experienced and better opponents rather than because Nurgle are good).

    Did you proxy this or have you already got 4 Harbingers?

    One Harbinger is a very solid choice for a Big Archaon list - I agree with that. I lost to a list like that at Rain of Stars - I forgot that I could kill the Hellcannon Crew with my Magna Dragon turn one - then the Hellcannon did 18 mortal wounds in 2 turns. Despite this, it was a great game. Thanks again Laurie H-W.

     

    Tronhammer NZ

    Posted

    Quote

    Dragonlord Host in hero phase '...can attempt to charge as if it were the charge phase.' Does this trigger fanatics...? I think not as it's not actually the charge phase. I know this was covered a bit with similar wording in this the bonesplittaz but don't recall the outcome.

    We don't know and there are arguments both ways. I've previously argued that for a deemed combat phase ability (e.g. pile in and attack in the hero phase as if it were the combat phase) - the enemy would get any defensive buffs that work in the combat phase (shields that only work in the combat phase for example). Similarly if the Kunning Rukk were to shoot Moonclan Grots sporting both banners (as they are allowed to do by the FAQ....) in a deemed shooting phase within the hero phase, then they would get their +1 to save against shooting banner. Thusfar - probably not too controversial - these all "make sense" - they're still carrying the same banner, they're still carrying the same shield.

    Some kind of stand and shoot ability that works in the charge phase - Freeguild trickery? Sisters of the Watch? - would also presumably work in a deemed charge phase. 

    Deploying Fanatics can happen in either player's charge phase, so by creating a deemed charge phase and following the above logic, it does seem possible to argue that the other player can deploy them and make a charge in the start of the deemed charge phase. However, this does seem to be one step removed from the shields and banners examples, so I can foresee some resistance to the idea. The problem is that drawing a line to say that the "deeming" goes this far and no further is what an FAQ should do (or a TO for a given event).

    Obligatory mini-rant about the Kunning Rukk

    I personally haven't found any examples that seem imbalanced about the enemy having mitigating ploys in your own deemed phases - the real imbalance in deemed phase land is still unsurprisingly the 40 Arrer Boy (80 wounds) Kunning Rukk (in both the pure Bonesplitter and mixed Destruction Filth variants).

    Saying that you can kill the Big Boss doesn't really address the fact that even without the extra round of shooting, they still autodelete virtually any monster; likely delete several normal (4+) save units within range; autowin the game/break the clock if they have damned terrain anywhere on their side of the table; combo very well with Thundertusks and Fanatics; and soak up an absurd amount of damage with their 2 wounds for 10 points cost making it very hard to counter them. 

    Counters to Fanatics

    I have found that just as some of the best hard counters to Stormcast are in the Order Grand Alliance*, so some of the best hard counters to Fanatics are (at least 6) Yhetees ("I don't feel like charging, I'm going to just pile in 6 inches from 6 inches away because that's how I roll") and Nasty Skulkers, see games 3 (up already); and 5 (to come):

    *One almost asks why Stormcast need the Gryph Hound's rules when they are the ones doing the most teleporting? Then one remembers that Chaos armies used to summon units (i.e. Daemons) and this used to be an actual threat and this triggered Gryph Hounds - I'm not arguing for summoning to be changed btw - Chaos's strength lies elsewhere and they aren't that much weaker than Order and Destruction.

     

     

    • Like 1
    Tronhammer NZ

    Posted

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    I played against a Dragonlord Host the other day, and that thing is just brutal. It wiped a unit of Liberators, Protectors, and Prosecutors in one go (we were playing 1000, so no room for Skyborne Slayers). Absolutely insane.

    I'd just add that at 1,000 points (let alone 500) monsters become a lot stronger than at 2,000. Balance can only really be measured and decided at one points level. 

    Classic examples include the Arachnorok and two units of Spider Riders:

    Arach.JPG

    Despite having said models, I foolishly left them at home and brought the mighty Fyreslayers....

    The Stonelord is also obscene at 1,000 points with Battlebrew.

     

    Tronhammer NZ

    Posted · Edited by Nico

    Quote

    Yup, that's a big weak spot. With the right matchups though you could go through and win a tournament I reckon. Like most other armies in AOS, there are decent counters out there, which is good for the game!

    Yep - the rock paper scissors (or hard counters) aspect of the game is crucial. Just need a Tzeentch lore spell which forces a ranged unit to shoot itself and the game will be perfect.B|

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