Frowny

I think more than anything they just need to be able to actually play their game. They were fine before their new battletome. Just being able to reliably summon and use their own woods and had meaningful allegience abilities. Currently they have scenery rules and thats pretty much it. Their allegiance ability is just their scenery ability, and all the suballegiences are variations on rerolling 1's. I think it could be solved mostly with some much better allegiance abilities. Like 'the first time a model in your army uses a command ability each turn, you may place a sylvan wildwood within 18 inches of that mode'. would go a long way to making them more reliable and interesting. Point drops would make them stronger but feel like sylvaneth. They need new allegiance abilities. maybe this could definitely be fixed with a Broken Realms style update.

Yes. I'd go big and think a point of rend and a third attack would do them well. And then return them to 100 points/5. Would make them proper scary, which I'd appreciate. Its sad when proper scary in this game is the horrible marauder models instead of the gorgeous new chaos warrior sculpts. I'd excitedly lose to a chaos warrior wall. It seems more fitting than losing to a mortek or fireslayer wall, at least in terms of lore and how much I like their model. They are also pretty slow and would still require buffs, so there would be counterplay to them.

I'd say the classic pistoleers, outriders and general griffon in the battalion is what you want. The griffon synergizes much better with the pistoleers than a dreadlord would and it can both shoot and melee pretty well, although does lean toward shooting

That but also so much more. Also just this thing alone is worth heaps, this is a very strong tactic. As a slightly absurd example, 1000 points of 10 small units, can deepstrike 20 models stretched out in front of your opponent 9 inches every turn, limiting their movement to never more than 9 inches. You could also attempt charges, and with so many units would likely get a few making their 9 inch charges, limiting their movement still further. Also, on the charge their damage is plenty respectable for their cost. 9 with full rerolls (e.g.. Hag Nar) will do on average about 11 wounds to a 4+ save. if they start within 6 inches. Basically the same as 10 witch elves with bucklers, exchanging bladed bucklers bounceback mortals for -1 to hit in melee, and swapping run+charge for the teleport. And they are 20 points cheaper, making them both sturdier and killier per point, at least on the charge with buffs! And this is just one of many possible uses. Now I'm just pondering how to cram several units into some sort of list. I had been hoping for a more elite type army, since I had wanted to do a lot of conversions to make a whole army themed after them. Like nighthaunt cloaks for everyone. We'll see

100 points for those guys is absolutely nuts. The on the board teleport is AMAZING. I've played 2x5 units of tree revenants which have a similar ability and are very strong because of it, even if the rest of their warscroll is incredibly weak in combat and die to a muffled sneeze. Compared to the already very playable tree-reveants, 20 points gets you +4 bodies +6 wounds +8 attacks at 3+/4+ +9 ranged shots -1 to hit in melee 1 inch of movement (doesn't matter much, but sure). AND THEN putting them in a much strong book with solid faction abilities. for 20-points that's bananas. They are twice as good in every dimension, with enough firepower to take out lighter units and enough sturdiness (11 wounds on a 5+ save at -1 to hit for 100pts) to be competitive with some generic battleline units. They will also outduel most screen type units if they happen to make their 9 inch charge. People who are comparing them to harpies or other deepstrikers are missing how good the on-the-board teleport is. They can cover your backfield objective AND threaten the opponents at the same time, doing the work of 2 units in most lists. Or they can screen in front of your witch elves AND THEN teleport forward to screen out your opponent, all simultaneously. Huge value. Even a single model from a single unit left on the board will pin them on every one of their backfield objectives, while simultaneously preventing them from taking one of yours. Ironically, I'm not even sure they are best in daughters of khaine. They don't really need the allegience abilities (although they are certainly helped by them). I'm pretty sure I need to buy 3 units (or more likely convert some from some Nighthaunt) to ally into every other order army I have......

Also note that with the new woods, you can connect them up as you choose so long as the tips are pointing in. So you can have them pointed inward but at odd angles, to make a longer skinnier woods. You don't actually have to make a circle, more like a jaggedy long oval if you want. Helps you maximize surface area or fit into certain locations. Also, can't shadow warriors become battleline with some sort of general? I forget now, but that would save you points in all those pheonix guard if you want. While I think there is some play to the shadow warriors with their ok melee, ok shooting and great flexibility, I don't think there is nearly so much value to the treelord just to get the +1/+1 on their shooting attcks. You could almost have a 30 more shadow warriors for the price of the treelord. 90 shots at 3+/4+ is nearly as good as 60 at 2+/3+, has 30 more bodies, more suriveable even out of cover and is way way better in combat. Let alone if you are near a hurricanum which equalizes the shooting as well.

I like the eels, but they are all kinda samey- has anyone tried cutting and molding them so they are in different poses? Pondering trying to make one wound up in a circle or something. I like what you did with the pedastles there. The bases / stands for them are also awful

People usually play Pistoliers in Tempest Eye, in the battalion, and there they are very very strong. That being said, even with most of their damage in the shooting phase, they still struggle to get all their bases in if you have too many, so even then, people usually run some outriders as well. Usually a 2:1 or 3:1 Pistolier:Outrider ratio,

For outrageously strong competitive build I give you the Akhelion Corps, with no fat at all 270 Volturnos - -1 to be hit 100 Akhelian Corps 340 Leviadon - Ancient 140 3x Ishalaan Guard 140 3x Ishalaan Guard 340 6x Morsaar Guard 330 3x Sharks with Harpoons 330 3x Shark with Harpoons 2 Drops, 3 major threat units for that crucial turn 3, the turtle to hide behind a 2+ or 3+ unrendable wall for the first few turns, a lot more ranged than classic builds. Also easy to drop a shark or 2 for either a soulscryer or substitute for more shield eels or more combat eels, or even a spicy eidolon. 3 drops is still pretty low. At least more varied than other earlier builds, and I think will be quite potent. Would ironically do less well against other eel builds as its pretty vulnerable to mortal wounds, but would likely do better against t1 shooting threats like KO who will struggle to remove a wall of 2+ save unrendable eels.

Given that each part of morathi has a different warscroll, is it allowed to take only one? I can see value in each half in some situations.

Has anyone tried dark riders in living cities? With their giant move you can easily get the full shots+charge off on turn 1 with a cp, doing some damage (I know not amazing but still, something) and then with their giant bases, even 10 could pretty effectively pin an opponent in their deployment zone. Could do something similar with outriders too. Still leaves space on a flank for a harder hitter (dracoths, irondrakes etc.)to drop in and take out a target as well.

Has anyone looked at reavers? On the charge from close range near the appropriate bubbles, they put out quite impressive damage per point, beating out namarti thralls against a 4+ save. Plus can shoot a different target from their charge to take on 2 targets at once. The bubbles for both the +1 hit and wound and both the eidolon and the turtle seem independently solid. The turtle especially seems amazing. As ppl who played vs petrifex, +1 save is amazing. I think a turtle will be in every list. I expect 3x morsaar and 1x turtle to now be in every list for t1 2+ unreadable save vs shooting right off the bat. Almost feels like the morsaaray overtake their more damaging friends.

Any thoughts on reavers? +1 to hit from the turtle And +1 wound from the eidolon on 5 attacks seems pretty solid.

I think this is not correct- You are likely playing Morathi already, or at least many lists will be. Moreover, this is ONLY using her command ability, so big morathi can still fight and she can still cast all her great spells. I see this more as a 560 point investment. Also note it would be fine with only 10-15 blood stalkers, although obviously a little less powerful, but with less eggs in one basket. Its also much easier to use than the pile-in twice of melee snakes, who will need to both survive a round of combat with something and both be alive and not have killed their target, which is quite unlikely. Even fighting once, most times big blocks of snakes will already kill stuff, and if not, they aren't that tanky and so are probably dead. I also think the Ironscale is not likely actually that good- I'm not sure the snakes really need the extra speed, they already in combat on turn 2 if you want them to be, and even with the command ability, the still aren't quite fast enough for a t1 24inc charge, which are pretty easy to screen out anyway. From experience, 12 inch bubbles like her +1 attack are quite hard to use when I play ogres or nighthaunt, so I don't think that side will be very impactful either. Too many things have to go right- Sisters make the charge, ironscale also makes the charge, ironscale attacks first and kills something, sisters fighting something strong enough to need extra attacks but not so strong that they have to attack first to survive, the extra attack actually mattering at all even if you get it off. Even if each of these steps is a 85% success rate, it is still less than a 50% chance of working once you have to stack 6 different 85% steps in a row. What about something like: Khailbron, Morathi, Temple Nest:Medusa General, 3x Blood Sisters, 2x Blood Stalkers 2 Drops, with a mean turn 1 ranged alpha from a big unit of blood stalkers that is very difficult to stop, free relocation from the general trait. Depending on if you want 10-15-20 snakes in which units, you could also squeeze in a single hag queen or some aetherwings for objectives if you are OK with 3 drops. Edit:I'm also realizing you can do basically the same thing with either of the new battalions - Vyperic Guard or Scathcoven for slightly different variations on low-drop lists.

I think one of the bigger winners of this may actually be the Khinari Lifetakers. Morathi is great with them. 15 Khinari lifetakers is 240 points, for 30 damage 2 attacks on the charge, increased to 45 with Morathi. They also carry mindrazor well, going to 3D with OK bravery. Its a bit of a glass cannon, but thats the story for the whole army, and with the 14 inch move, they should easily be able to get there, and they keep up with Morathi just fine. I also think people are underestimating Blood Stalkers. A Big unit shooting twice with Morathi seems excellent. 80 shots with 6's=mortals = 12.5 mortal wounds, enough to kill 2 characters or Most monsters, before even accounting for the rest of their regular damage. It is expensive, but this is only 1 CP for little morathi: You can still get full value from big fighty morathi and full value from her spell casting, so you are really only paying for the blood stalkers themselves, since it doesn't really require much of morathi's warscroll to do. They are also passable in combat, with 40 attacks at 3's and 4's if they happen to get caught in melee, and you can melee fight them to get them out, so you can't tie them up with something weak (although something strong will of course kill them) Or maybe I'm reading morathi wrong and this doesn't work.

I'm thinking that this entire army is going to be incredibly strong with these minor tweaks. Eel spam was already borderline OP, and Idoneth gained several other relevant and powerful support pieces, without losing anything on their actual strongest build. Already people were running a unit of 3 sharks to benefit from the command ability on high tide. Now the army can stop pile ins for free. Additionally, the turtle is much better, as a 2+ save on turn 1 does a lot in terms of buying time until turn 3, and the 3+ save on other turns is also excellent. The Akhelian Corps is now amazing, as there is nothing in you don't want, and easily gets you to a 2 drop list. Volturnos, Akhelian Corps (Turtle, 4x guards, 2x sharks), spending most of your points on eels I think will be very very strong, borderline OP. Could throw in some aetherwings if you want, or the board-edge deepstrike for 3-4 drops as well.

Save them and use them to pull the celestial hurricane you will likely want. Looks cool!

Gotta be destruction of some sort. Most likely ogor to me, maybe another warband for underworlds or warcry Giants were just released so probably not. Ironjawz don't really use wood and bonesplitters don't use metal so I think those are both out.

Another albeit unlikely idea is some sort of sylvaneth hero type character. Hear me out- Sillhouette looks a lot like a dryad. They also already have bird shaped bits, just like that one although favor owls over ravens. They also already have a little 'house' shaped bit up top. I think it is from one of the sylvaneth wildwoods, I think the older ones.

If you are going down the mass ironguts route, I strongly recommend either 20x gnoblars or several units of frost sabres. Ironguts hit like trucks but are quite fragile so need some protection. Also, with 2 inch reach they can easily swing over the top of the Gnoblars. I find one of my most common CP expenditures is the 6 inch run on my gnoblar screen on turn 1 or so. Its not like there are a ton of great command abilities on most of our models anyway. I almost feel like the battalion is unnecessary. With those points (and the tyrant who doesn't carry his own points), you could instead pick 20x gnoblars, a hunter and 2x frost sabers. Now even if you don't get turn order, you can sneakily take an objective with your frost sabres (and risk nothing), force them to hang back with your hunter, and are protected on your turn by the gnoblars. So something like Frostlord on stonehorn Butcher Slaughtermaster, general Hunter Irongutsx8 Irongutsx4 Irongutsx4 20x gnoblars 2xFrost Sabres 2x Frost Sabres Gives you 4 pretty good threats with a good bit of support.

I can see them unlocking a stormcast Seige chamber with giant armored stormcast- think dreadnaut stormcast. I suspect they'll go down that road. Kinda like what is proposed here. More generally I'd just love a warsroll rewrite for the prime. He's fine as pointed now for some contexts but just lets down on the relationship between his fluff and his rules. I want him to cost another hundred or 200 pts and rules to match.

Yes, probably my title is too rage inducing. Maybe something about being inefficient with it rather than wasting it since there are a lot of good ideas in them. I just think it gets messy when they smush in too many of those ideas simultaneously. I also think I'm maybe thinking about them wrong. The goal was apparently to just recreate high elves, which they did, appealing to that audience, rather than one of the more concise armies they've done since then. But that doesn't get gw off the hook. One could make the argument that the old high elves were lazy with design as well, as someone mentioned, they were a bit good at everything. Some simple fixes to not eat their own design-old high elves were great at magic but not every unit was a wizard. Why use up that gimmick? Just give them some solid high tier casters. You've now satisfied the high elf vibe but haven't cheapened future wizard as unit releases, especially in the battleline slot. I really like the stances/martial side. The deploy in rank stuff for the spearmen is fun. Why not lean more into that? For example, the alirith could have just as easily leaned into their hammer stance, dropping the 'stone'/elemental sub theme while keeping them mechanically the same -now you've doubled down on their most coherent element (martial mastery) and not wasted another idea (elemental stuff).

I'd add Get good at simple converting. The vast majority of heroes can be converted from a basic soldier with a headswap, a different weapon, a different base size and maybe a base with some height on it. This will save you a lot on character clampacks which are quite expensive per model. And if you use gw substrate for your conversion it'll still be good at any gw store too. The most valuable bits are bodies since most kits come with extra heads and arms. Similarly you can save a ton on units if you are willing to slightly convert. For example, tzeentch acolytes come in boxes of 20 and work great as everything from free guild to marauders to even male witch elves with just a headswap and/or a different weapon or shield etc. Don't buy gw paints. They just cost more than equivalents. Not terrible value, but hobby store paints are almost as good and cost half as much. Not quite as good and often. Less selection of colors, but totally usable. Also makes you practice mixing colors more which I view as a plus. I do like the gw specialty paints though. Ebay and 2nd hand are your friend. Be patient. Wait 2 weeks before your first purchase just to get a sense of what's out there and what you should expect to pay. Don't be sad loosing an auction, there will be more. As others have said, avoid gw spray paint. Hardware store spray works just fine and costs half to a third as much. Remember to get matte. Decide what you like and optimize that-if you like modelling or painting, don't bother trying to collect a 2k army. If you like playing, try not to get distracted by 1 off cool purchases. Obviously this isn't a hard and fast rule, but at least worth considering.

I think you are mistaking the direction of my thoughts- I am thinking about the design of the rules, not of the lore. Warhammer starts first and a foremost as a game. By extension, the rules should speak for themselves. You don't need to read the 'lore' of the Settlers of Catan universe to know it revolves around building and trading- The rules make that obvious, and the game flows from the rules. Once you set up the island and see the cards with bricks and sheep on them, you get it. You understand the universe, without reading pages of lore or dedicated novels. Also, what do you mean by 'have been'? The book was released 6 months ago. It isn't like there is some long history of 'them being that way', except in the lore, that GW themselves wrote, when they released the book, 6 months ago. If you are referring to the high elves, then yes, there is some elements of them in the lumineth, notably the martial history and magic use, but some of it is all AoS (elemental side, or the aetherquarts, for example) Similarly, you are underestimating the power of GW. They write BOTH the rules and the lore. They can write it however they want. For example, instead of the alirith spirits of the mountain being animalistic, they could have been elemental (for example, just replace the head with a crystalline prism or something). Now you aren't eating into the design space for future animal based releases, but keep the elemental aspect. As one of many possible examples. In contrast, a really good set of rules, (at least regarding design, power level aside) is for the idoneth deepkin- You read the rules for tides, and then they name them 'ebb tide' etc. and it clicks. It feels like tides. They come in and out and then repeat. And then you see the characters that interact with it at different stages. It all makes sense, as a single idea, and ends up augmenting their eel riders, giant turtles, or even just the shells on their basic infantry. Well done! I don't need to read every page of lore, because it just fits. I Get It. Aethergold for Khardaron is similar. It fits with everything I know about pirates- they like gold. It also fits with how money works, where you can spend it for some value now. Finally, the -1 bravery there fits thematically, again with both how pirates and money work, you are sad after you spend it. It clicks. It also matches what I know about dwarves (who also usually like gold). And then I see a pirate dwarf in a skyship it all just clicks. I Get It. Do Lumineth have that click? For me personally, no. But what's worse, they way they are designed gets in the way of several future ideas that might. Megagargants also don't really do it for me as design either, mostly just using the bully idea from ogors to count for 10 on objectives. In their defense though, ironically they don't take up much design space about it.

This isn't to say they aren't an interesting, good and/or engaging. There are certainly cool ideas built into them, but from a design standpoint, they feel lazy, and a bit all over the place. They have tons of interesting themes, but somehow struggle to flesh out none of them, while simultaneously burning up interesting future designs. Magic the gathering has become increasingly aware of this in their multiyear history, as each card means they can't easily print another without evaluating it against others. Similarly, every mechanic must be different from others or it will start to feel same-y. Indeed they are very aware of this and try to reuse existing mechanics or cards when possible to preserve future space. So to summarize some of the design space the Lumineth have used (and my thoughts on it) High-martial prowess rank and file units- Cool! I'm in. Kinda overlaps already with the Ossiarch Bonereapers in a different faction, and with freeguild, who gain bonuses for staying still from their general. But either way, this is cool and interesting. Takes away future ability to do something similar, for example if they ever make a full freeguild type faction, but it is certainly reasonable to use it here. Every unit is a wizard- Also cool, also interesting. Feels like a bit of a stretch though. I know elves are certainly magical but why are they more magical than Tzeentch, the god of magic himself? This decision also cheapens all future wizards-as-units in the future, and makes it way way harder to release any ' I am very magical' armies. Moreover, if this is going to be their main thing, then why also the martial mastery thing? Elemental Themed subfactions- Also cool and interesting but this could have been an entire set of factions, one for each element ala Idoneth deepkin for water. Alternatively, I would love a an elemental type faction full of natural magic homed within destruction. It also takes up territory for future realm-related releases. What does it mean to be from Chamon if there is already going to be a 'fire temple' within Hysh to compliment the alirith? Feels unnecessary but also a bit confusing thematically with how the realms work. Animal Themed units- Nobody really likes the whole cow thing, and I agree it feels out of place. This feels like a better stand alone army with different animal themed or worshiping units homed within destruction or maybe as a cool expansion/extension of beasts of chaos. Why do the alirith worship cows? why is every beastman a variation on a goat? I think there is space for cool panther infiltrators or elephant or rhino heavy infantry? There are tons of cool possibilities here, but this one decision eats a ton of that design space. Expendable Resources- aetherquartz of the lumineth feel frustratingly similar to the aethergold of the Kharadron. Games are defined by their mechanics, which therefore exist to builds the narrative. For the lumineth, this does not feel like it serves a role. Unlike warpstone and the skaven (super cool OD on magic and blow yourself up resource) or the aethergold of the kharadron (establishes them as traders/pirates), Aetherquartz does neither of these things, instead adding power but no narrative or character. Like why are they actually collecting the stuff? I'm sure they wrote a fluff bit about it, but does that matter? I thought they were martial ruler wizard elemental animal worshipers, not collectors. Alternatively, if they wanted that feel from a narrative point, they could have saved design space and literally copied the same mechanics and naming from kharadron/aethergold it would be just as cool and interesting. +1 to hit is quite similar to rerolling hits in concept, and both offer rerolling armor. You could even give kharadron the useless +1 cast and it wouldn't affect balance (although obviously they couldn't really use it). There is nothing wrong with actually duplicating a mechanic if it serves a role. I love your games GW, but please keep enough space for yourself to actually design one in 20 years, when I'm hopefully still seeing cool new ideas.