Frowny

Some things I've noticed Thunderbellies mornefangs are fast. 9+2 (hungry) + run and charge, +3 charge (general, instrument, mount trait)= 15+3d6 move. (average 25). With either the guarnteed 6 inch run or the prayer, you have excellent odds on a 1st turn charge. And they hit hard. You could try the payer, if it goes off, save the CP for the rr wounds, and if it fails, use it for the 6 inch run. The charge damage should enable to the 'must be bleeding' condition relatively easily. Hunter + frost sabers is an easy outflank+ charge with +3 to charge on arrival. The battalion for +4 seems solid too, allowing you to easily fill your battleline, lots of little bodies, and nice easy charges. The mortal wounds on charges for the big beasties counts for quite a bit of damage. MSU I think will be one of the main ways to go anyway, and gets you a good number of those triggers. It is very easy to get low drops, with several easy 1-drop battalions if you are so inclined. 2 battalions will get you a very diverse army with lots of good choices. The ranged options are terrible compared to those in cities of sigmar. Gnoblars I think will fill an important role camping backfield objectives and providing screens. They cover area really really well for their price, although unlike other hordes they hit like wet noodles even with buffs in place. I still think that 2x20 will be a role-player for many lists though.

A dwarven scourgerunner chariot.... I thought you all might appreciate this...  Have people had any luck using quarrelers as dark shards or something? They seem quite strong...

I think this is a subfaction ability and all of them get it. Even better in terms of overall strength but it neither confirms not denies mount traits

I think there is some truth to both of you. I did the math back in the 50's. Sequitors are per point sturdier against rend 0 without a castellant. Remember that they are cheaper. That matters a bunch. Also with a castellant, as long as you buy ~10 sequitors, they are also do better against rend 1. They do trail off against 2 rend or better relative to pheonix guard, and certainly lose to mortal wounds. With rerolls to hit, they also hit harder than pheonix guard per point against a 4+ save. This makes the other side true as well. Pheonix guard are sturdier if sequitors rr hits and killier then sequitors rerolling saves. So on any given turn, they are either sturdier OR fightier, but not both. That is also ignoring the castellant himself, who isn't an amazing fighter, but does have some wounds and reasonably good attacks, which probably puts them over the top in other situations as well. Overall, not obvious to me which is which, but it seems like it might be a bit of a wash, really. Sounds like well-balanced infantry!

Have you considered doing this with skaven? They also have a ton of sub armies... And it seems to be working quite well.

I think a little less negativity about gw and balancing drakespawn nights. Yes. They are terrible. But they did a really awesome job balancing like 50 other warscrolls and 6 allegiences. I see people build lists using almost everything. Surely we can forgive them a 2 % fail rate.

Damn. Quite a Nerf to the scourgerunner chariots... And I just bought pieces to make 3!

I think to make outriders good you have to play to them with both a hurricanum and a freeguild general. Once they get to 3+ to hit, the fact that on average they get 15 shots per 100 pts instead of 10 on handgunners makes them more damaging per point. They are also gauranteed to fire t1 which handgunners may not. But I think you also need a hurricanum to make them worth it.

Hi there, I was thinking of getting into death and really like the nighthaunt asthetic but their rules seem a little meh.... Too many infantry and nothing else seems like it would be boring to paint and a pain to transport. One stand out unit that seems both strong and fun are direwolves... But they don't fit the nighthaunt asthetic. And then I look across and see glavewraiths as terrible rules but ok models that fit the fun nighthaunt asthetic.... So a question for you all. What would I need to add/convert to use glavewraiths as direwolves? I would obviously change to the correct base size, remove the scythes and just leave some hands/ claws and then have and a paint scheme fitting the army... Would that be enough?

Any thoughts on the best tools for taking on killy hordes? Like 30 savage orruks or 60 grots or 30 witch elves or something? Nothing in our list feels quite versatile enough to both kill them at a reasonable pace and not die in return. Even something chaffy like chainrasps or skeletons seems like it will do pretty well against our infantry. Maybe the answer is screens and crossbowmen/darkshards? Other options I guess are gyrocopters with steam cannons or the halloheart spell. Or maybe just heavy cav charges?

When I did similar math for myself hammerers won out as the killiest thing in the book. Unlike executioners their me continue as attacks, making them much stronger. And they are 20 pts cheaper than greatswords. The thing that pushed them way way over the top is a possible 3rd attack from the warden king. There is lots of +1 hit or wound in the book but once you get near maxing out at 2+/2+, things start to plateau for everything. They also have access to the only -1 rend buff, so their max is much higher. If you really wanted you could get 2+/2+ rr everything -5 rend or something for a guaranteed 3.5 damage for every model. Obviously absurd. I do feel that the speed of the dwarves makes them less appealing that I'd want, but they didnt match up too badly overall.

Well, I would drop the arch revenants. Hunters are very self sufficient. His best thing is his command ability which you don't really have a great Target for. I would also drop the celestant and castellant. Support heroes with nothing to support. Alternatively you could add 10 sequitors who are amazing with a castellant Now you have a nice strong 1250 point list. From there I would add what you think is cool or awesome. Maybe a drycha for assassination charges or some shadow warriors for more cool tricks.

I think if is too generic seeming. The others give people something to latch onto and build around where hammerhal does not, just generically useful. Sometimes restrictions breed creativity. There is also a good amount of +cp abilities so the main +1/6 cps per unit per turn isn't as strong as I'd thought it would be.

I do think corsairs will be better in other cities. Tempests eye to get up the field safely or Phoenicium for the +1/1, which improves them a ton. The best for anvilguard seems the extra t1 cps for some kind of t1 play or maybe the monster traits if you want to play a lot of hydras or dragons or something

It certainly is obvious and strong but I'm not sure overpowered. I think a big reason tzeentch spell spam is good is because with the battalion they have the mobility to drop them t1 and the low drops to guarantee the best turn. Hallowheart has better raw casting, true, but with all the little wizards is almost never getting optimal turn, and doesn't have the mobility to drop in more than a few long range spells. Or you have to spend even more In support. Eventually I think the strongest hallowheart builds will combine it with something else. All the wizards at base are pretty cheap for what you get leaving plenty for room for a 1500 point gunline for example. I played a bonesplitterz arm last week. He had 270 wounds on the board. My mortal wounds annilhiated his key characters and high value targets. Then he had 250 wounds left and murdered me with strong melee bodies that made my mortal wounds feel pathetic.

Maybe. I am limited heavily by what I physically own and am willing to proxy while I try things out. I think in that game it would have helped some, but I made enough mistakes that it wouldn't have changed the outcome overall I would indeed love to try the purple sun. The problem with it is that the range is quite short, so you need spell portal to get it there t1. And then you have put 120 points in... I also felt short on casts the entire game. The battlemages have great spells, and the lore is so useful. Nothing broken but I wanted 5 spells from it every turn. I also thunk warding brand is sneaky great. They will have to kill something. Be it your front line or some random objectives holders. Dealing half the wounds back is a very highw output for a single spell. True your things have to die, and they have some control over it, but it's very hard to avoid. they are going to kill something or you win in objectives.

I just played a game against the new big Waagh. I felt a little bit outmached, made several mistakes (not remembering my own rules) but also noticed some bigger problems I'll have to address in list building. My list: Hallowheart Hurricanum Battlemage x3 Warden King -general, extra 4+ command pts Ironbreakers x20 Longbeards x10 Irondrakes 2x Dark riders x 5 10x wild riders 3x gyrocopters -steam guns Balewind vortex, geminids, swords His list 1x old school wyvern with weird guy 2x dancing casters 1x Boar cast (general) 3x 30 Spear infantry 2x10 Boar boyz If you count, you'll realize he has ~ 250 wounds on the board here with all a 6++. This is a nightmare for hallowheart armies... Shifting Objectives I deployed up on my line, ironbreakers in front, longbeards, casters and irondrakes behind. Right side was the gyros, wild riders, dark riders on each flank. He deploys first, takes first turn, rolls for d3 extra CP's getting 3, rolls a 6 for his general to get more Waagh power, and immediately goes up to 19 Waagh with 1 CP, giving his entire army a 6++, move d6 after taking damage, +1 to hit, +1 to charge and +1 to wound. Absolutely Brutal. He then gets of a spell for double movement, using it on the boar boyz to charge 24 inches toward my copters, getting him to 20 waagh points for the full buff. Everything else advances, running 6 and 5 inches on the 2 middle blocks. His characters follow-suit. This was my first mistake. I didn't realize he could so easily go 24 inches off the charge with such an incredibly easy t1 charge. He killed all my copters, and a few dark riders, but also critically tied up my wild riders denying them the charge. Brutal start. I kill 2 boars in return. On my turn, I do not get any bonus CP and spend mine for +2 to cast, but only take 1 wound, so don't have to heal anything. I jump on the balewind vortex and wildfire his front line. I also use elemental cyclone, hitting 19 in the central group but only doing 4 MW. My first bit of bad luck. Chain lightning does a few more wounds as well, and bounces to his characters. Geminids hits his characters for more MW. The I buff up the ironbreakers with +1 wound, -1 to be hit. He uses his free d6 movement to keep away from my ironbreakers. Dark riders get the 4+ MW on death and jump on a far away objective. Other dark riders take the other flank objective. Ironbreakers move forward but are too slow to charge, so run. Irondrakes walk forward and shoot some orks. The hurricanum moves forward and snipes his 2 characters. Turn 2 he charges into my front line with endless orks. He moves his wyvern general up to behind his orks and uses 2 CP for +2 attacks on everyine. Ironbreakers hold like champs with -1 to be hit and -1 on him from the geminids, holding off 60 orks with 4 attacks each in a choke point in the middle of the board with my wizards behind. Glorious! He takes both flank objectives. I grind down his boarboyz eventually in the back line, although they do get my wizard. On my turn, everything is basically engaged, so I cast some spells and settle in for the grind. I again cast elemental cyclone, this time hitting 27 but only doing 5 MW. a second not-so-great luck. The irondrakes try to shoot his wyvern general, but I did not know he was both etheral and had a built in reroll for the out of date shield ability. Shoulda just plastered some orks. The hurricanum does 5 MW to it. Ironbreakers still hold with -1 to be hit, and kill a few more ork but take some casualties. I forgot to get my warden king up on his rock, and forgot to roll for more CP's, so the last ironbreakers end up fleeing. The warden king did pretty well in combat though.... He wins turn, and at this point I'm done for. I have nothing left to hold back still 60 orcs or so, so on his turn he will just smash my remaining units and he already holds every objective with me having no hope of taking it. Things learned/things that worked well/things that worked poorly 1) I felt pretty outclassed on the pure basis of our warscrolls. Ironbreakers at 130 points for 10 wounds at a 3+, 2 attacks each were just much much worse than his infantry at 110 points, 2 wounds with a 5+/6++ (much sturdier) and 3 attacks each (much killier). I'm not sure what I could have done differently there, but that was painful. His cavalry also put mine to shame. 15 wounds with a 6+/6+ for 140pts is noiceably sturdier than almost of our killy cav (10 wounds, 5+ save), and with 7 attacks each (rider +mount) on 3+/3+, they are also killier, and not nearly so dependent on the charge. His allegience ability also felt incredible. It seemed like he didn't have to try to get a huge range of awesome buffs. Based on this, I'm thinking of changing the ironbreakers for sequitors and the warden king for a lord castellant. The 3+ rerollable is much much sturdier. 1b) Nothing I had felt broken. Double move + fly on a spell, for example, is game changing. The entire hallowheart spell list is excellent, but more in a reliably useful kind of way, not a game-changing one. Maybe I could improve this with the right endless spells, but I felt like everything was frustratingly balanced. Amazingly balanced, but also nothing that gave quite so many amazing options easily. I think this will be a very average battletome when everything evens out. 2) Luck matters. He had good rolls on the most important ones, +6 to the Waagh for his general, getting the full buff t1, 3 CP at the start, big runs on T1 to get objectives) 7+ spell for double move without a cast buff, I never got the double turn. I had some good luck saving on the ironbreakers, but it didn't matter at that point. 3) This felt like a terrible matchup. I just didn't feel like I had the tools to take out that many wounds. Elemental Cyclone let me down, and the gyros dying t1 didn't help but even if it went well, it seemed like an uphill battle. Any thoughts on how to deal with that many wounds? I really really want to avoid a hoard army, although do know that some big blocks of crossbows would be excellent here... 4) I really wish we had some more buffs besides +1 to hit and +1 to wound. +1 to save would be amazing. He had that as a spell AND a dance for easy access to +2 where he wanted it, although starting from a 5+ it wasn't as op as it would be in something with a baseline good save. 5) Hurricanum was amazing. +1 to cast made the wizards really reliable. +1 to hit sitting in the middle of my line was also very strong. And the sniping from the storm was also great for finishing off weak casters in the backline. 6) The whole ball of wizards was pretty affordable, had lots of utility and was great at assassinating heroes. I think it will be a staple of many of my lists. The balewind vortex to chain lightning + wildfire to the front line did a ton of MW distributed across his front, and hit several characters. Useful. However, I feel like more focused killing might be better. Geminids were amazing as always. The range is what sets them apart from other endless spells. They were also nice and consistent about giving out buffs (-1 to be hit, +1 to wound), which was nice. I wish I could fit a 5th wizard. 7) Against rend 0, mystic shield on the ironbreakers would have been stronger than -1 to hit. 8) Dark riders didn't seem to offer much. They were fast, but they didn't seem to excel in any dimension. Not sturdy enough to take a hit (like demigrphys) but not killy enough or shooty enough to really charge well (like pistoliers, outriders or wild riders). They will be dropped. 9) irondrakes will not be returning. They are not for this list I think. They are too slow and their range too short.

I think people are maybe a little stuck in past armies and that the For example, pheonix guard are batteline in any army with the right general. They benefit surprisingly little from the actual pheonecium trait. I think living city with the guaranteed heal and the +1 save trait or hallowheart to ensure you actually get the better save on your pheonixes might actually be better. Similarly hoards of corsairs I think are actually better in pheonecium than anvilguard. Easily suicidable in small units (or the chariots), +1/+1 in combat helps them a ton in combat.

Scourge runner chariots do seem incredible. While there are many other strong shooting options in the book, they are unique in being both very mobile and not really requiring much support, but still benefiting some if you can offer it. Hurricanum means they hit characters on 2s.... Anvilguard may be the weakest for them ironically compared to healing 1w/ turn in living city or +1 wound in tempest eye. Their only major downside is the number of drops they add to your list. They also have quite big bases which can be a strength but might also be a weakness in some situations. I'm wondering if chariot spam is in fact very strong. I'm going to convert myself 5 and see if I like them...

Has anybody tried or thought about pistoliers or outriders as the mainstay of their force? They are quite fast, not that much less sturdy than infantry, and the math for their guns adds up pretty well, either on the charge (pistoliers) or as stationary firing lines (outriders). Their only major downside is that their big bases may get in the way of getting a lot of models in base contact. Relatedly, are there any other +to hit available for shooting attacks besides the hurricanum and then general? Both of them carry buffs like champs.

I have no experience but looking at it, grundstoks are far more mobile giving full strength even moving and likely much more independent with their awesome retreat ability. Irondrakes have noticeably more damage per point if stationary and are easier to buff (160 pt chemist vs 90pt runelord or batteline longbeards.) I think bigger picture grundstoks will be better if you are already taking a chemist for something else (big arkonaut company, endriggers) to give a 2nd buff Target but worse if you just want something killy in your main line behind some ironbreakers.

You battleline is all over the place.... I'd pick one race for your battleline and go from their. Either freeguild or dwarves. If dwarves, Drop the liberators and freeguild guard and 10 longbeards. Their best feature is their buff anyway, so not much lost there going to minimum size. Use all the points you've freed up to get some ironbreakers or irondrakes. Done. Now everybody buffs everyone. If freeguild, drop the longbeards and liberators and runesmith and get some freeguild guard, a general and/or a 2nd unit of handgunners. Also 2 endless spells with only 2 wizards is too much.

I'm seeing a few strong armies 1: hallowheart spell spam bunker. 2: tempest eye alpha strike/upfield bunker-darkshards with maybe a dwarf screen for that 2+ sv your first turn. 3: Living cities surprise monsters. Drycha, freeguild general with the artifacts, a few shadow warriors to assassinate weak targets. 4: pheonix guard spam-just really strong infantry, could be combined with many of the others on this list or as it's own plan. 5: gunline. Maybe empire crossbows or handgunners, maybe artillery, maybe drakeguns or sisters but there seems to be something here. Are there other very strong looking lists I'm missing?

This. I play sylvaneth and she is excellent. much more mobile than durthu, much more forgiving on the wounds due to so much of her damage being on 6s. And she is a caster. I think she will be much easier to make work and more consistent. She also doesn't require an artifact where durthu really wants one, which leaves you with another threat. A freeguild general with griffon or a frostheart pheonix also seem excellent with either the command trait and or the relic. 2+ save +1 to wound and maybe striking first is pretty deadly, healing 1 wound per turn and excellent to take hits back.....

Each battlemage will get 1 spell chosen from his warscrolls and 1 spell from the tempest eye list and then Arcane bolt and mystic shield.