Let's chat : Maggotkin of Nurgle

[Injuryprone]

1 minute ago, Yeled said:

What a surprise, FW models aren't listed.   Just like in every other GW book.

[Yeled]

49 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

So, when the scroll builder messes up (As it has done in the past) and puts say blightkings back up to 180 rather than 160. Will you refer to it as the standard as you do now? or will you simply say "Oh that's gotta be wrong as the book says this so ill ignore that for the time being " 

Yeah, the scroll builder often limits things explicitly allowed by the official rules. We find ourselves writing stuff in on half the lists we build in our group.

[Arkiham]

6 minutes ago, Yeled said:

Yeah, the scroll builder often limits things explicitly allowed by the official rules. We find ourselves writing stuff in on half the lists we build in our group.

precisely.

scroll builder is a tool designed to help people build lists quickly.

its often wrong though, a prime example of this ( unsure if they've actually fixed it yet ) was everchosen battalions not being allowed as a specific god allegiance, even though the books clearly stated they could be. 

as such, i no longer use these tools as they're often wrong about important things and as i said people treat it as written law when the actual written law says its wrong. 

 

[Soldier of decay]

Regular GUO with endless gift took 4 rounds of Archaon and only had 3 wounds at the end of it (wheel made him re-roll6’s the only chance he had to auto kill) before he retreated and realized he wasted his time. 

With that, the exalted might just be a waste of points. My GUO has sword and flail and gave 13 wounds to him ( they we’re all passed off to other models though so Archaon never left first damage line) 

I healed so much. Endless gift is awesome.

[Injuryprone]

19 minutes ago, Soldier of decay said:

Regular GUO with endless gift took 4 rounds of Archaon and only had 3 wounds at the end of it (wheel made him re-roll6’s the only chance he had to auto kill) before he retreated and realized he wasted his time. 

With that, the exalted might just be a waste of points. My GUO has sword and flail and gave 13 wounds to him ( they we’re all passed off to other models though so Archaon never left first damage line) 

I healed so much. Endless gift is awesome.

You didn't need bell mobility?

[Soldier of decay]

I ran blight cyst so I had some shooting and really with the trees having a 7” bubble I can place it mid board run to it( with unit musician bonus and wheel bonus) the still be ready to charge if they took first turn.  I was in combat by my second turn every time. And blightkings with rend followed by a harbringer to give them a Save was a hell of a battleline.

[Auretious Taak]

13 hours ago, Arkiham said:

as I said about the gaunt summoners, there is only 9. who are all named, you are restricted to only taking 9 so, therefore, they are named. as there is limitations on how many you can take, which is what you are basing your argument on. correct?

Well, this is not the case, as in the DoT book, they are not included in the named list, even though there are limitations placed on how many you can take. 

 

which is, in its simplest form, your entire argument, it's limited, therefore its a named character.

how about in a 10k game?

 

the reason greater daemons are limited as in HUGE games, you could take multiples of these which are far stronger than the normal greater daemons. formations with bloodthirster in? ill take 8 exalted greater daemons instead, the new GUO formation? ill take 3 EGUO's instead, the formation with the LoC's in? ill take all greater ones instead. 

 

they are limited, due to the fact that only 1 would turn up to a field of battle. which is keeping within the lore. 

@Keldaur you'll find they do place quite a bit of weight on the lore if as a gamer you do not, as I successfully argued to games-workshop that Skarbrands axes wording wasn't in keeping with the lore description of it, so they changed it to always do 8 wounds. 

 

11 hours ago, Keldaur said:

Unique Character does not exist in rules terms. Named character or Unique are the labels. I am not using deliberately them, I am using the rule terms for them.

Yes, and I can make a case that the war scroll profile already includes the stats, artifacts, and traits that set them apart from Greater Daemons to allow you to use that Kugath, etc. So I come back to the same spot.

Both are Unique. Why is the Exalted Greater Unique ? Why doesn't the list builder allow me to juggle around the artifact/traits for any of them? If the difference is that it is because Rotigus is a named character and the Exalted Greater Daemon is not (rules wise), why use the unique Behemoth for both? Shouldn't I be able to field 8 of them if i wanted to like with the Gaunt Summoners?

 

9 hours ago, Injuryprone said:

What a surprise, FW models aren't listed.   Just like in every other GW book.

A few points here:

Firstly: Fluff and Rules as Written are NOT THE SAME THING.

No one cares if there are 9 Gaunt Summoners or only 1, the fact is, their keywords (i.e. the Rules as Written) actually state that you can only take one of them in your army because one of their keywords is their name. That is, in the keywords for The Gaunt Summoner, 'The Gaunt Summoner' is a keyword. Just like Archaon has the keyword 'Archaon', just like Rotigus has the keyword 'Rotigus', etc.

Secondly, forgeworld has and always will be separate to the main games-workshop games, at least in the foreseeable future. Their rules are always optional and not part of the ranges carried by Games-workshop stores and by extension not officially endorsed for normal game play. You need each others/a TO's/a store manager etc, permission to use Forgeworld models in your armies so trying to compare Forgeworld rules to GW rules and trying to justify them based off of them as mutually inclusive of each otheror Forgeworld rules not being listed in a Battletome is ludicrous. Stop the foolishness and look at the Rules As Written and understand the VERY CLEAR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GAMES-WORKSHOP AND FORGEWORLD.

Unique as a keyword is very clear - it's one of a kind. You can't have more then one of them in your army no matter how large it is. The Exalted Great Unclean One is a Unique Behemoth. that means, even if you are playing an eight hundred thousand point mega game, your army will o0bnly ever be allowed to field one of him/her/it. Just like you can only include one Rotigus or one Archaon or one Gaunt Summoner. Again, the fluff doesn't have an effect on the game itself from a Rules perspective. yes, there may be 8 exalted greater demons of khorne but even 800,000 points of enemies does not match the fluff descriptor of armies tens of millions strong before they even consider having one rock up for the slaughter, but regardless, unique behemoth, you get one of those guys maximum in your army no matter how large it is. And no you can't have allies rock up with an exalted Great Unclean One either if you are on the same side because like named characters only one ever exists at any one point in a battle. So No Archaon in one force and one in another on the same side, just like no extra EGUO's either.

To the debate on whether an EGUO can have an artifact or warlord trait, it's forgeworld. Usually, their models are supplied with ALL their own rules and own options. So if it doesn't say you can give them an artifact or a warlord trait, odds are they can't be given them, rather their points are only costed towards their warscroll available from Forgeworld without anything else you really, really want to give them. BUT, as Forgeworld model use is optional and needs permissions to use, it's actually entirely up to your gaming group/tournament/local store whether or not you can give an EGUO artifacts and warlord traits.

Finally, to the issue of a warscroll builder app or otherwise vs published books, Games-workshop haven't changed their policy towards the game rules of the core rulebook takes precedence in all cases except in the case of a published battletome or officially sanctioned warscroll (say from a special boxed set) where the rules take precedence over the core rules. FAQ's and rules clarrifications released in downloadable formats also take precedence over the rulebook and the battletomes/warscrolls. This has been the same as it always has been for decades and multiple editions of all games-workshop's games. their published rules are the go to, not a fancy smancy army list builder which has had mistakes in the past and apparently still does currently.

[Auretious Taak]

Two questions myself now:

1) Where do I find the rules for this sorcerer chap called Sayl people have mentioned multiple times; and

 

2) What units of Chaos from the Forces of Chaos or elsewhere am I allowed to include in my Nurgle army and what am I not allowed, or more simply, how do I know what I can and can't include? This is a question that comes from reading the Kharadron Overlords thread where apparently it's illegal for them to ally in some skinks, but no one quoted anywhere why that's the case as they are all Order Units. Just some slight confusion there on my end.

[Percivael]

Why is the Plaguetouched warband so cheap? 100 points for a 1 drop army, that’s -1 to hit, with an additional mortal wound ability (depending on numbers in units) and an additional artefact. It’s crazy. 

Ive been writing some lists with it cos I was going all mortals anyway but that price makes me paranoid, what’s the catch? We do still get Nurgle Allegiance with it don’t we?

 

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Auretious Taak said:

You need each others/a TO's/a store manager etc, permission to use Forgeworld models in your armies so trying to compare Forgeworld rules to GW rules and trying to justify them based off of them as mutually inclusive of each otheror Forgeworld rules not being listed in a Battletome is ludicrous. Stop the foolishness and look at the Rules As Written and understand the VERY CLEAR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GAMES-WORKSHOP AND FORGEWORLD

An there we go.

This is literally not true.

Forge world models are as much of the game as games workshop ones, and anyone of the opinion that you need permission to play forgeworld literally aren't worth playing against.

furthermore, you go on about rules as written an fluff, then you proceed to say "Usually, their models are supplied with ALL their own rules and own options. So if it doesn't say you can give them an artefact or a warlord trait, odds are they can't be given them " well, that's not RAW is it?

there is no singular passage of text saying " this model cannot take items, " as 1) its not named 2) there's no passage of text excluding greater daemons from taking items

And as I mentioned fluff often does have a major impact on the games. Check out skarbrand, his axe I successfully argued that the wording of it "the fluff " said that you cannot escape it. So it always dealt 8 wounds. They faq'd it to do so.

 

oh, that sayl dude you're on about?

yeah according to your own rules you cant take him without the opponents say so... 

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Percivael said:

Why is the Plaguetouched warband so cheap? 100 points for a 1 drop army, that’s -1 to hit, with an additional mortal wound ability (depending on numbers in units) and an additional artefact. It’s crazy. 

Ive been writing some lists with it cos I was going all mortals anyway but that price makes me paranoid, what’s the catch? We do still get Nurgle Allegiance with it don’t we?

 

It's a large requirement. You'll soon find yourself out of points, especially to make use of the multiples of 7 thing

[Percivael]

1 hour ago, Arkiham said:

It's a large requirement. You'll soon find yourself out of points, especially to make use of the multiples of 7 thing

I know what you mean, it does set limitations but at that price it’s worth taking even without the multiples of seven thing. It just seems cheap compared to the Cyst battalions which are 220. I suppose it’s half price because you’re unlikely to make that much use of the 7 ability. I know 35 marauders is a thing...but I don’t wanna paint 35 marauders!

[Arkiham]

20 minutes ago, Percivael said:

I know what you mean, it does set limitations but at that price it’s worth taking even without the multiples of seven thing. It just seems cheap compared to the Cyst battalions which are 220. I suppose it’s half price because you’re unlikely to make that much use of the 7 ability. I know 35 marauders is a thing...but I don’t wanna paint 35 marauders!

That's kinda the issue. I get the feeling that's why it's cheap, you need 7 units outside of the hero

to get multiples of 7 you're paying points for models you don't use, it's a struggle to get any big models in.

While the effect is strong, it's often unused

[shadowgra]

It will surely be changed in gh18. They probably let it go for now, but all everchosen battalion will get nerfed for Sure. They cost nothing and give good bonuses and a 1 drop chance is very probable.

You are paying like 12 points per unit to make them -1 to hit. LoL

 

Edit: wrong number

[Arkiham]

11 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

It will surely be changed in gh18. They probably let it go for now, but all everchosen battalion will get nerfed for Sure. They cost nothing and give good bonuses and a 1 drop chance is very probable.

You are paying like 12 points per unit to make them -1 to hit. LoL

 

Edit: wrong number

They reduced it from 140 to 100 in ghb>ghb17

[shadowgra]

1 minute ago, Arkiham said:

They reduced it from 140 to 100 in ghb>ghb17

And they made a big mistake. And i say that it should be increased by playing it before and after gh17. Is almost a year that i play only plaguetouched

[sal4m4nd3r]

Fact: unique is not the same as named..or there wouldn't be a distinction. (GHB and pitched battle profile)

fact: eguo is unique

fact: named characters can't have traits/artifacts.

fact: eguo doesn't have a named character profile. His abilities and weapons are literally the same name and effect as GUO.

he can't take traits and artifacts. So if you want to be a donkey and not take them on eguo..fine but don't come in here and spread misinformation

[Binabik15]

Hi everyone, I just signed up to get some input.

 

I'm building and repurposing from Fantasy a vast Nurgle horde...slowly.  Mostly from getting an idea for set of themed dudes and now that I have a few started/done and a rough buying plan for more I'm looking at list building to shape those mini projects to something that sort of works. I'm not deep into AoS, so  I'm wondering why people here rarely use things like knights,  (gorebeast) chariots, chaos hounds, plague trolls etc.  in their lists. I'm not looking at creating competetive lists, but some synergy/units not acitvely hindering each other would be nice.

For example one list theme I particulary like among my stuff (which is also the second most recent one, so it migjt fall soon out of favour) is a breacher ship crew from Gutrot Spume's crew used to break fortified beaches/river banks/cities-because-hey-magic-ships-can-fly. I could also run it if I buy the Harbingers of Ruin box, the Harbinger (or use a count-as mounted Nurgle lord) and maybe some chaos hounds.

15-20 Blightkings with a Viking raiders theme (suffering from haemochromatosis like their real world counterparts, in AoS terms that means growing metal spines, though), some Nurgle Chaos Warriors as lesser raiders, Gutrot, a Harbinger because he's cool, a sorceror, two gorebeast chariots to speed down assault ramps and smash hard targets in the fluff, chaos spawns and a warshrine (to justify a one of those conversion turning a corpse cart into a flying boat). Because I'd be out of specific  raider models then before reaching 2000 I'd add my whooping 10 plaguebearers, herald of Nurgle and two Pusgoyle Blightlords.  

Does that make any sense together? The warscroll builder doesn't like me right now or I'd present lists, too. I have 3 Nurglings bases, 3 plagueflies, marauder horsemen and knights, too. I know more plaguebearers per unit would be better, but I don't have them, just the ones from a single SC that I turned into daemon knights on foot. More will come with my Carneval of Chaos troupe, for example, but that'll be after the raiders.  Would plague trolls add something to the list? Toads? Some fast hounds? Marauders have a bad reputation in AoS, so more human reavers are out, I guess.

 

Anyway, very nice discussion you have going on here, very helpful so far.

 

[Killax]

@Binabik15 hi and welcome! Great to see youve got some plans allready! Quite frankly a lot of them seem good from the getgo. The focus has largely been on Maggotkin of Nurgle focus because it's what the Battletome covers. For sure the Slaves to Darkness lines can add a lot of flavour and flexability. 

So for your theme, have a blast. It's a cool idea to have Gorebeast Chariots for Nurgle, would certainly convert them but nothing that can't be done with the new Horticulous  one smaller downside to those ranges and choices is that they could also have been Nurgle Drones and I do think these are amazing units too. One thing I do want to highlight is that there is basically the option to go heavier Daemon or Mortal/Rotbringer/Slaves to Darkness. So if you pick the latter I'd stick with it completely.

If you include Gutrot Spume, a whole lot of Blightkings for a flank/rear force and present a frontal force made up of Chaos Warriors and Marauders you'll certainly do okay. Feel free to add a list you had in mind to narrow the wide conversation down  

[Infernalslayer]

@Binabik15 that is a great idea.

 l love the thought of a Nurgle Mortals army with heavy focus on Gutrot Spume's fleet.

Had an idea to convert a nurgle Warshrine with a Boat on top carried by some big slimy creature like this one

but couldn't fin a suitable boat to nurglify so i have this project on hold at the moment.

A large unit of marauders might be good with some of the rotbringers' buffs but if you want to have your whole army converted to look nurgle, they might be a lot of work.

[decker_cky]

On 1/27/2018 at 1:08 PM, Arkiham said:

but if you could tell me their names, and show me the bit where it does while your looking, ill gladly concede.

If your opponent can tell your exalted greater daemon's true name, they get to control it.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

What are peoples thoughts on an affliction cyst with gutrot + 10-15 man bk unit alpha strike?

(1500 pts cost with 15 bks, and 1340 pts with 10 bks). 

[Killax]

29 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

What are peoples thoughts on an affliction cyst with gutrot + 10-15 man bk unit alpha strike?

(1500 pts cost with 15 bks, and 1340 pts with 10 bks). 

Feels just right especially if your going that route  

However I feel this can work just as fine anywhere. I'm not really sold on most of the 220 point cost MoN Battalions but feel free to present the complete list! 

[Lucio]

On 28/01/2018 at 12:08 AM, Injuryprone said:

What a surprise, FW models aren't listed.   Just like in every other GW book.

May be news to you but Forge World and Games Workshop are two seperate companies, even though they produce products for the same game system.

That independance isn't a nod and a wink, but a literal split at all levels, including rules design. The design team for GW don't, and never will, be responsible for writing FW rules and vice versa, except when individuals transfer teams and the general co-ordination on release dates.

[sal4m4nd3r]

47 minutes ago, Lucio said:

May be news to you but Forge World and Games Workshop are two seperate companies, even though they produce products for the same game system.

That independance isn't a nod and a wink, but a literal split at all levels, including rules design. The design team for GW don't, and never will, be responsible for writing FW rules and vice versa, except when individuals transfer teams and the general co-ordination on release dates.

they are not seperate. FW is a subcompany. FW, citadel, black library are all owned by the games workshop umbrella.