Fix the rules of 1

[WoollyMammoth]

- No model can never gain more than +1 to hit or wound (after its own modifiers).
- No model can never be affected by more than -1 to hit or wound.
- Abilities from multiple models with the exact same scroll never stack.
- When one unit is affected by multiple terrain bonuses, they must pick only one.

AoS is pretty fun but there are some glaring issues. Casting a better saftey net with the rules of 1 can go a long way.

[Turragor]

What are you thinking of in particular?

Perhaps I'm wrong but it reads (a little) like you just lost a match as a result of a combo that was a stacking debuff on your units or a stacking buff on your opponents units.

Again, could be wrong, but I would feel nervous about decisions made due to a specific combo in a match (or a few matches). There's always knock on effects.

 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

- No model can never gain more than +1 to hit or wound (after its own modifiers).
- No model can never be affected by more than -1 to hit or wound.
- Abilities from multiple models with the exact same scroll never stack.
- When one unit is affected by multiple terrain bonuses, they must pick only one.

AoS is pretty fun but there are some glaring issues. Casting a better saftey net with the rules of 1 can go a long way.

I don't see how this is needed to be honest, if someone is putting loads of buffs on one unit then tie up/avoid that unit whilst you kill the buffers.

It can be frustrating to deal with something that has you at -2 to hit for example but there are ways around it.

I don't think these changes would particularly change the game that much, the meta would just shift slightly.

[fiZZycoke]

there's no need to add additional rules to the rules of 1, stacking abilities and spell combos is part of the fun of the game..you simply need to deal with the buffing characters to stop them from getting them 

[KHHaunts]

Sort of echoeing the above comments really . . . .

Perhaps you could put the rules you stated into context by saying why you want them implemented. E.g. why is stacking buffs or debuffs so bad?

Synergy is a huge part of the game.

[RossMHoward]

@WoollyMammoth - No model can never be affected by more than -1 to hit or wound.

Not up for this at all. We've seen plenty of multiple +1's to hit going totally wild with all the overarching hitting on 6 abilities. 

It's only fair that some armies have a mechanic for blocking this and for taking away these players toys. 

[Arkiham]

2 hours ago, Turragor said:

What are you thinking of in particular?

Perhaps I'm wrong but it reads (a little) like you just lost a match as a result of a combo that was a stacking debuff on your units or a stacking buff on your opponents units.

Again, could be wrong, but I would feel nervous about decisions made due to a specific combo in a match (or a few matches). There's always knock on effects.

 

Indeed. Sounds like he was beaten badly by a nurgle/bloodbound or Nighthaunt army.

It isn't cheap to stack bonuses , and can easily fall apart against a balanced army 

[RossMHoward]

2 hours ago, Turragor said:

Perhaps I'm wrong but it reads (a little) like you just lost a match as a result of a combo that was a stacking debuff on your units or a stacking buff on your opponents units.

This is an important distinction to make as the local meta is vastly different, between stores and clubs and probably between countries. I think these decisions are best left to tournament organisers in reaction to the current meta. 

[KHHaunts]

33 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Indeed. Sounds like he was beaten badly by a nurgle/bloodbound or Nighthaunt army.

It isn't cheap to stack bonuses , and can easily fall apart against a balanced army 

Exactly. Deathrattle being quite a literal example.

Superpowered Skeletons are one of the key elements of the army. However its more than made up for i think by being torn apart as people start sniping your heroes and reducing your numbers.

Im all for super charging units as so far there is always a glaring weakness to exploit. Thats strategy baby!

[Gaz Taylor]

Personally I think the rules of 1 work quite well and only were an issue with units like Pink Horrors who are wizards as well but with new Tzeentch book you can bypass this with them knowing the other spells.

3 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

- No model can never gain more than +1 to hit or wound (after its own modifiers).
- No model can never be affected by more than -1 to hit or wound.
- Abilities from multiple models with the exact same scroll never stack.
- When one unit is affected by multiple terrain bonuses, they must pick only one.

AoS is pretty fun but there are some glaring issues. Casting a better saftey net with the rules of 1 can go a long way.

I don't agree with any of this at all. Age of Sigmar is designed about having abilities stack and units being able to effect other units. Are you able to go into any detail about which ability has made you annoyed? Most of the time you need to pay attention to the wording as something which seems it can stack doesn't always  

[daedalus81]

The points required to achieve some of these affects are fairly high.  We should instead look at combos that are too cheap and push for point increases if necessary, but I doubt there are glaring issues.

 

[Dez]

I wouldn't mind having Bolt and Shield be unaffected by the rules of 1, granted the best you can ever get is a 2+ save.

[Terry Pike]

25 minutes ago, Dez said:

I wouldn't mind having Bolt and Shield be unaffected by the rules of 1, granted the best you can ever get is a 2+ save.

You can still get a negative save though. if you had a 4+ save for example and had 6 mystic shields cast on you, rend -3 would remove 3 of them but you would still be on a 2+ save.

[daedalus81]

1 minute ago, Terry Pike said:

You can still get a negative save though. if you had a 4+ save for example and had 6 mystic shields cast on you, rend -3 would remove 3 of them but you would still be on a 2+ save.

And the big gribblies would benefit greatly from this.  As well as units with innate rerolls of 1 like Stormcast.

[Dez]

56 minutes ago, Terry Pike said:

You can still get a negative save though. if you had a 4+ save for example and had 6 mystic shields cast on you, rend -3 would remove 3 of them but you would still be on a 2+ save.

Easy fix, a roll of 1 always fails (unless you have a reroll). I thought this would be the rule of 1 when I'd first heard of it, haha!

[daedalus81]

3 minutes ago, Dez said:

Easy fix, a roll of 1 always fails (unless you have a reroll). I thought this would be the rule of 1 when I'd first heard of it, haha!

Huh?  That is one of the rules of 1...

And it still doesn't prevent the occurrence of an un-modifiable and re-rollable 2+ save.

[Terry Pike]

4 minutes ago, Dez said:

Easy fix, a roll of 1 always fails (unless you have a reroll). I thought this would be the rule of 1 when I'd first heard of it, haha!

The 1 still fails, my point was you can completely ignore something like rend -3 by having so many +save modifiers you still are passing on a 2-6 even with -3 to the roll

[Dez]

I'm not sure if I hit my head, put something in my coffee or if it's me trying to read and type and work tech support at the same time. I'm not sure what I was even on about! Momentary wire crossing with Open Play, which I never play anyway? Weird. 

Essentially I meant never be able to get a 1+ save, and even if you get a 1+ save a 1 always fails like the old WFB. We should be able to cast Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt with multuple characters...but once per character.

[KHHaunts]

I can think of very few (If any in fact) of instances where a player could empower a units save or otherwise that much that wouldnt create a glaring weakness also.

Maybe their is a specific example that someone can tell me but surely if idecide to build my list on the idea that im am going to render a unit practically invincible then surely i do that at my own risk since any spending points on wizards to cast mystic shield is a huge waste of points when i can just play with a mind to pick each of them apart until the "empowerd unit" is vunerable.

Ive never encountered a scenario where it couldnt be overcome with strategy. So far in AOS there appears to be a downside to every upside.

But then i dont know every combination and am not as omnivigilant as im sure i appear to others so examples would be great

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, Dez said:

I'm not sure if I hit my head, put something in my coffee or if it's me trying to read and type and work tech support at the same time. I'm not sure what I was even on about! Momentary wire crossing with Open Play, which I never play anyway? Weird. 

Essentially I meant never be able to get a 1+ save, and even if you get a 1+ save a 1 always fails like the old WFB. We should be able to cast Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt with multuple characters...but once per character.

Possibly a change where a unit can not be affected by the same spell more than once a turn would be a amenable - so not arcane bolt firing squads or overly stacked mystic shields, but multiple units with mystic shield probably isn't terrible.

[WoollyMammoth]

I'm not here to complain about my games. I went to LVO and 5/6 of my games were great. I lost to a bloodbound player who also happens to be the #1 ITC player so he is a lot better at the game than I am. 

Sure, everything can be fixed with better point costs, but that is very unlikely to happen. If they undercost a really good model they start making a ton of money on it, so its more likely that they would update its rules to not be such a powerhouse, and that is not happening for a decade or two when their faction comes back around for a new book.

This is why casting a saftey net with rules of 1 will help to keep the game under control. People stacking +3 extra attacks, -2, -3 to hit, +3 to hit .. all these things are out of control. +1 to hit or -1 to hit is massive on its own. There are only 6 sides to a dice.

So as a result, you have absolutely everyone trying to get this, and building their lists around multiple minus to hit, or multiple + to hit to counter, along with a million attacks.

If they were to simplify the game and say, okay get your -1 to hit, now do something else. This allows for more diverse things you can take. Then we would start seeing more variety to lists and less of people taking the same things. The objectives balance out the game so people can still win and have good games against different lists, but it would be nice if they just put a saftey net out there so everyone doesn't just take multiples of the same super powerful models, because there would be no reason to. Lists could become more varied and interesting.

[Terry Pike]

1 minute ago, WoollyMammoth said:

I'm not here to complain about my games. I went to LVO and 5/6 of my games were great. I lost to a bloodbound player who also happens to be the #1 ITC player so he is a lot better at the game than I am.

I'm guessing the stacking issue was the +3 attacks from 3 Bloodsecrators onto 2 units of 30 Bloodletters.

I can see same named buffs being removed in the next edition of the handbook. They have just been disallowed at the SCGT with the release of the event pack today. You can still get lots of modifiers, they just have to come from different abilities, which in most cases stops any spamming abuse.

[WoollyMammoth]

@Terry Pike
Thank you. Yes the bloodsecrator thing is an issue. Not because it's unbeatable, just because its so good that everyone wants it and you see it in every other list .. its just boring.  I beat a list with +2 attacks into a unit of 20 bloodletters but I lost to a list with +2 attacks into a unit of 15 flying skullreapers.

[Lucio]

The simple rule to follow, each ability can only be applied once, so you can have one save from a Warshrine, one bonus attack from a Warboss's Waaagh, and so on. It's quick and easy and makes stacking the same miniature multiple times less effective

[Bradifer]

Interesting.

Although it removes the simple "3 rules of one" and makes it more like "the 7-ish rules of one."

I like the approach of the game still having plenty of variety due to list building, warscrolls, factions, strengths and weaknesses, and plenty of synergy present.

I got the sense from the thread linked below, that if a list is well groomed and crafted to destroy another army, the community sometimes considers it "filth" and it's not fun to bring your good army... Somewhat limiting the potential of an army so that lists are a little closer in strength across the board could be a good step.

Still you have to look at BCR and thundertusks/stonehorn combo. These additional rules affect basically everyone except them. They get to keep on shooting 6 mortal wounds, hitting in melee, being fast, and healing a bunch while taking 1/2 damage. Something to consider.

A rule of one I would change is that you are only allowed to SUCCEED on casting a spell once instead of attempt to cast it once. If you REALLY want a mystic shield, it mist cost you 2 casting attempts. That's diversity via building redundancy for casting into your list.