The Balewind elephant in the room

[WAAAGHdogg15]

I've been wanting to start this discussion for ages but wanted to wait until I was in a non-ranty mood for fear that my strong feelings on this issue would cheapen the start of this discussion.

Anyway, it seems recently that more players are discovering the summonable Balewind Vortex rules and it is really dividing opinion. Personally, at our club, we have used them from the start of AoS (and the other scenery warscrolls for that matter - not sure why so many people ignored them but that's perhaps for another topic).

Now, I'm not trying to claim that they're not powerful, they are, but what I would like to propose is that a) they have clear weaknesses and b) they are beatable i.e. An army without a vortex can beat an army with one.

To me, the main weakness is it means your wizard can't move. I use a vortex with Alarielle quite a lot and it is annoying that, as long as she is up there, she can't be charging around elsewhere. For smaller wizards (Tzeentch Heralds etc) it means you know where they are and can plan to target them without fear of them scuttling away. Also remember that to banish the vortex, you have to do so at the start of your hero phase, so no blasting a unit with arcane bolt then retreating to be out of range of their shooting.

Which leads me into the biggest counter to the wizard on the vortex - shooting. This is one of the most powerful elements of the game at the moment with gunlines popping up all over the place. Most wizards only have 5 wounds and can easily be popped of their perch by a fairly inoffensive missile unit. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the vortex evens the odds in a way. It gives a combat heavy army a bit of magical interference against the gunlines whilst they slog across the table, getting peppered with arrows etc.

So those are my views. I completely disagree with anyone wanting to comp them out of the game or even out of tournaments. I say embrace them. I appreciate that one of the biggest issues for people is that it is a "free" summon, but so is the Wyldwood and nobody seems to be complaining about them.

Would love to hear people's (non ranty) thoughts on this 

 

[Andreas]

I think the problem is that it is an option and hence has a value but you dont need to pay for it. This leads to every list being better by including it and to me that is boring. I think it should have a cost and that cost should be at a level were some lists are better by including it and some aren't.

[Double Misfire]

Ban 'em all and let Khorne sort 'em out.

[WAAAGHdogg15]

25 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I think the problem is that it is an option and hence has a value but you dont need to pay for it. This leads to every list being better by including it and to me that is boring. I think it should have a cost and that cost should be at a level were some lists are better by including it and some aren't.

I completely appreciate where you are coming from and this is a more than valid argument. The standard counter to it though is that Sylvaneth Wyldwoods don't have a value either. Nobody has blinked at the fact that a Sylvaneth player can turn any game into a walk in the woods at no extra cost, yet the vortex, somehow, is a huge bone of contention. This is despite the fact that any army with a wizard can include a vortex whereas only Sylvaneth can use Wyldwoods. Until someone gives me a sense of parity in this respect, I'm going to struggle to subscribe to the idea that vortexes should come with a cost.

[bottle]

The main reason I think it should be banned from all tournaments is because it is out of production. It's a free advantage only available for those lucky enough to already have one or those willing to play £60+ on eBay. 

[Double Misfire]

Pretty apt thread title, because if Chaos War Mammoths could cast spells I'd guarantee you'd see someone trying to balance one ontop of a Balewind Vortex.

[Arkiham]

7 minutes ago, bottle said:

The main reason I think it should be banned from all tournaments is because it is out of production. It's a free advantage only available for those lucky enough to already have one or those willing to play £60+ on eBay. 

There is a lot of models out of production which are allowed 

[Andreas]

10 minutes ago, WAAAGHdogg15 said:

I completely appreciate where you are coming from and this is a more than valid argument. The standard counter to it though is that Sylvaneth Wyldwoods don't have a value either. Nobody has blinked at the fact that a Sylvaneth player can turn any game into a walk in the woods at no extra cost, yet the vortex, somehow, is a huge bone of contention. This is despite the fact that any army with a wizard can include a vortex whereas only Sylvaneth can use Wyldwoods. Until someone gives me a sense of parity in this respect, I'm going to struggle to subscribe to the idea that vortexes should come with a cost.

To me Sylvaneth Wyldwoods has value and should also cost something, let it be 5pt or something. But it is what it is and different house roles will now guide how we use both of them.

[bottle]

4 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

There is a lot of models out of production which are allowed 

Sure, but they cost points to field in Matched Play. If the Balewind had points I wouldn't mind. It's that it is both free and OOP which is why I think it should be banned.

[EldritchX]

Apart from paying in your movement potential, think of it as a cost built in to every wizard's cost, like the wyldwoods are built in to Sylvaneth costs. There are many similarly 'costless' options in AoS, such as horses for many heroes.

[WAAAGHdogg15]

35 minutes ago, EldritchX said:

Apart from paying in your movement potential, think of it as a cost built in to every wizard's cost, like the wyldwoods are built in to Sylvaneth costs. There are many similarly 'costless' options in AoS, such as horses for many heroes.

This!

This is why I titled the thread as such. It's actually not the vortex which is the elephant, it's the fact that people blissfully ignore all the other elephants in the room.

What if all wizards were increased in points value? That would provide the cost factor, although I appreciate the point about them being OOP and free. Conversions are a thing though. If you want a vortex badly enough, you will be able to get one somehow.

[Arkiham]

 

41 minutes ago, EldritchX said:

Apart from paying in your movement potential, think of it as a cost built in to every wizard's cost, like the wyldwoods are built in to Sylvaneth costs. There are many similarly 'costless' options in AoS, such as horses for many heroes.

Agreed. Wizards tend to typically be more expensive and have worse stat profiles than those pure melee/ranged based

If anything, I feel we need more stuff, the battlefield is so static an dull when you read the stories it's much more dynamic. 

Terrain dramatically affects battle outcome in real life,  yet in AoS it's irrelevant 

 

[Bjarni St.]

Quote

I appreciate that one of the biggest issues for people is that it is a "free" summon, but so is the Wyldwood and nobody seems to be complaining about them.

This is a false equivalence. Wyldwoods are specific to one army that's designed and costed around summoning them. The comparison doesn't hold water. Same deal with 'costless' upgrades like mounted heroes that previously had configuration options that predate models even having official points values.

Dragging up a piece of OOP scenery from Storm of Magic because it has a silly legacy warscroll with plainly broken rules is just filthmongering and it should be banned at all competitive events.

 

[Nico]

Quote

I think the problem is that it is an option and hence has a value but you dont need to pay for it. This leads to every list being better by including it and to me that is boring. I think it should have a cost and that cost should be at a level were some lists are better by including it and some aren't.

There is a cost to it in the sense that if you fail the cast roll, you lose a spell. That's 6 chances out of 36, so not huge, but it is a "cost". Similarly being unable to move makes it far less useful. 

I think if you comp the movement rules (either charge on an 8, flyers charge on a 3 or just attack it as if it were a garrisoned building) it is actually pro-balance because shooting is so popular and magic so poor with the rules of one. I played 6 gunlines at The Warlords! I used the Balewind as a soft counter to artillery crew, having lost to a Hellcannon in the previous tournament - 18 mortal wounds in 2 turns at infinite range. It also makes debuff spells viable - e.g. Daemonsmith, Sorceress can actually debuff Savage Orruk Arrerboyz without having to win a double turn, move into range, then cast. 

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, EldritchX said:

Apart from paying in your movement potential, think of it as a cost built in to every wizard's cost, like the wyldwoods are built in to Sylvaneth costs. There are many similarly 'costless' options in AoS, such as horses for many heroes.

I was going to say something about that, so this is a good springboard.

I do believe the Wood is factored into Sylvaneth costs.

I don't believe the Vortex is factored into the cost of each and every army, or even every wizard.

The Vortex came out at time before points. The Slyvaneth were at the very least conceived with points as a factor.

Pre-points, it was (and is) all good.  Bring what you like (ahhh....) and balance as you go with your narrative battle.

Now we get discussions like this, quite naturally.

 

Having said all that, don't ban the Vortex.

[Spiky Norman]

Having all armies packing a free, out of production, auto-include piece of terrain seems like pretty bad game design. Hopefully GW fixes that warscroll sooner rather than later.

 

[Arkiham]

2 hours ago, Bjarni St. said:

This is a false equivalence. Wyldwoods are specific to one army that's designed and costed around summoning them. The comparison doesn't hold water. Same deal with 'costless' upgrades like mounted heroes that previously had configuration options that predate models even having official points values.

Dragging up a piece of OOP scenery from Storm of Magic because it has a silly legacy warscroll with plainly broken rules is just filthmongering and it should be banned at all competitive events.

 

I'd like to see your evidence as to how the Sylvaneth are costed for the ability to summon wyldwoods. As tbh they look costed pretty much similar to all other wizards 

[MechaBriZilla]

4 hours ago, Arkiham said:

 

Agreed. Wizards tend to typically be more expensive and have worse stat profiles than those pure melee/ranged based

If anything, I feel we need more stuff, the battlefield is so static an dull when you read the stories it's much more dynamic. 

Terrain dramatically affects battle outcome in real life,  yet in AoS it's irrelevant 

 

Not really.  Just in matched play.  What you are looking for is time of war rules.  Those make the battlefield much more dynamic,  but are difficult to add into matched play, because they usually favor a side.  Try Narrative play if you want more dynamic battlefields.

Otherwise, I don't have much to share in teems of how it affects the game, just haven't really played anything competitive.  But, I'll add this.  Just like you will see fewer and fewer people sporting Tomb Kings over time, the Balewind Vortex will also dissappear.  With it being out of print, those that own them will move on from that strategy as they bore of it, and hard counters become available due to the games  natural  evolution. So, I wouldn't worry too much, whether you like it or not 

[WAAAGHdogg15]

4 hours ago, Bjarni St. said:

This is a false equivalence. Wyldwoods are specific to one army that's designed and costed around summoning them. The comparison doesn't hold water. Same deal with 'costless' upgrades like mounted heroes that previously had configuration options that predate models even having official points values.

Dragging up a piece of OOP scenery from Storm of Magic because it has a silly legacy warscroll with plainly broken rules is just filthmongering and it should be banned at all competitive events.

 

Firstly, it isn't a false equivalence because, as stated above, the Sylvaneth wizards are not costed any differently to other wizards (Branchwych and wraith = 100 points).

Secondly, making the argument about OOP completely ignores the point I made about conversions. If you care enough about having one and think it's so "broken" you'd find a way of having one, otherwise you just care more about complaining than solving the problem.

Thirdly, I think Tomb Kings are OOP with silly legacy warscrolls and anyone playing with them is filthmongering (I don't really, just playing Devil's Advocate here ). That hasn't stopped people taking TK to tournaments and hasn't been contested nearly as much.

I also can't help thinking that people writing them off as "clearly broken" haven't played enough with or against them. Like anything else, there are ways of dealing with them, they're not an auto-win button. I think Nagash, Archaon, Mornguls, Retributors, Judicators, Fulminators, Stormfiends and most of the Seraphon army are filth, but I don't whinge that they should be banned, I find a way to try and deal with them.

Very close to rant-mode now so going to police myself and stop 

[Nico]

Think I misread a post. Sorry.

[KhaosZand3r]

20 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Pretty apt thread title, because if Chaos War Mammoths could cast spells I'd guarantee you'd see someone trying to balance one ontop of a Balewind Vortex.

I was honestly hoping that was gonna be the point of this topic. Sadly, no.

[MidasKiss]

Re: Wyldwoods

Firstly, you can't look at the cost of wizards to determine that. A branchwych cannot summon Wyldwoods outside of a sylvaneth allegiance. The only wizard who can is the ancient with an ability, or alarielle with her attack that turns someone into a wood (300 and 620 points respectively). That's a bit more of a cost in my opinion, I wouldn't take the ancient without his Woods abilities.

So looking at a sylvaneth army rather than a sylvaneth wizard, ftom my experience as a Sylvaneth player the woods are costed into the army.

If you think it isn't ask some Sylvaneth players to play at the club without Woods for a few nights. I have found and, so have others, that they tend to be disadvantaged point for point without Wyldwoods. If you find they can compete evenly or above at the same point value without the woods then that would be interesting, and I would agree that it would be a problem.

Why would this be the case? A good chunk of the army have abilities tied into Wyldwoods, and have been pointed around these bonuses IMO, rather than them being freebies. Even with woods, Sylvaneth are hardly stomping the podiums at all the latest tournaments.

I Wonder if the Balewind really did factor into the cost of all wizards and the balance of their spells. I'm definitely not qualified enough to say. Hopefully you all get to the bottom of it, but leave Wyldwoods out of it they have actually been banned I'm the current rules comp at the only decent Australian tournament because of what I consider these misconceptions. To me at least they are clearly set apart from scenery Warscrolls.

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[The Jabber Tzeentch]

I don't think it really matters if they considered it in wizards points. Every Wizard in any faction can cast it, every Grand Alliance had access to it. 

There's plenty of spells out there more powerful than this one. And if you can't deal with a wizard that CANT MOVE then it's your fault for not having the tactical flexibility to deal with it. 

[Andreas]

18 minutes ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

I don't think it really matters if they considered it in wizards points. Every Wizard in any faction can cast it, every Grand Alliance had access to it. 

There's plenty of spells out there more powerful than this one. And if you can't deal with a wizard that CANT MOVE then it's your fault for not having the tactical flexibility to deal with it. 

I dont think the problem is that every wizard/army list can have it, it is that every army list should have (even if the dont use it). The option to have it is > 0. So every army list that anyone can conseive that includes a wizard gets improved by buying and painting up a balewind. Isn't that boring, regardles of its rules.

[Arkiham]

I don't think it is, especially with the current meta of high amounts of ranged attacks. If you restrict access to the Balewind, wizards are just easy targets considering you can move then shoot allowing a unit previously out of range in range to then potentially kill the guy, the Balewind allows wizards to find a degree of safety to still be relevant and do some offensive things rather than having to stay on the extremes of the spells ranges just to cast mystic shield. 

 

You may find it boring but I find armies with masses of shooting boring. If I wanted to play 40k I would be, it doesn't mean it is boring