AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Lord Veshnakar]

The issue is Fusiliers are painfully restricted. They are great as a backline objective protector, but the reason that Blissbarbs are so scary is largely due to their speed, inherent buffs, and the Slaanesh army, which has a lot of passive bonuses, and Seekers.

Fusiliers are painfully slow by comparison. Sure you can use advance formation and Misthavn, but then you are losing orders for the rest of the army and the Greywater All out Attack x3. 

To inexperience players, facing a gunline of a cities army is going to be pretty scary for the first couple of games, coupled with the psychology of perceived "power creep" because new book.  I actually like the Hunters more than I like the Fusiliers but I still think the Fusiliers will be good for back board control. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Lord Veshnakar

[Myrdin]

Is there a summary of all the upcoming changes, including the warscrolls for new or changed units ?

Are Shadow Warriors still in ?

Unless its against the rules can someone pls link it ?
Or if it is, just point me the right way and I`ll look it up.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 minute ago, Myrdin said:

Is there a summary of all the upcoming changes, including the warscrolls for new or changed units ?

Are Shadow Warriors still in ?

Unless its against the rules can someone pls link it ?
Or if it is, just point me the right way and I`ll look it up.

Shadow Warriors are out to TOW but we get a Warcry band that have the same vibe. Rules are on page 1 of the thread. 

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It is an interesting article but it somewhat misses the mark for me. Personally, I think in the case of Cities of Sigmar, putting 1000+ points into a huge death start combo is not how you should play the book.

I do not know (or care, to be honest) much about CoS, but I try to spread such articles - mainly out of belief the form itself has a lot of value and is innately superior to any YouTube clips, podcasts etc. There is nothing like writing.

Having said that - you can argue that Blissbarb spam is not the intended way of playing HoS and neither is Kroak/Slann/Incarnate a proper way of Seraphon. Yet here we are…

[The Lost Sigmarite]

11 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Having said that - you can argue that Blissbarb spam is not the intended way of playing HoS and neither is Kroak/Slann/Incarnate a proper way of Seraphon. Yet here we are…

What @Neil Arthur Hotep says is that putting all of your (metaphorical) eggs in the one (metaphorical) basket that is the super duper death combo all the super competitive hobby influencers talk about is not the panacea... It can be countered and then you are in trouble for winning the game, whereas by multiplying small scale combos you play on different stages of the game, always have a backup plan, don't have to invest all in a list that might get nerfed, and it's generally funnier than a one-trick-pony combo...

We're not trying to be like the degenerates who spam 88 Blissbarbs, more like the based Slaanesh players who bring Keepers with Pretenders with units of reinforced Myrmidesh and only sub 30 Blissbarbs, that sort of thing. 

Also for all this talk about huge super competitive death star combos, most of us will never see a GT and will instead play with friends at the FLGS... Personally, I don't want to crush them because I still wanna play with them, and not putting 1000+ points into a huge death start combo but multiplying smaller ones is better for us and the other players.

Edited August 16, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

37 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

20 Corsairs + Sorceress + Fleetmaster is only 370 pts for arguably one of the best combos of the book. A Warden King and his 20 Hammerers + Runelord is 510 points and it's a good combo too. You can definitely squeeze some in lists and still have enough space for lots of humans or a few expensive pieces. But you won't score battle tactics, you would need a little bit more units for that. Like maybe 20 more Corsairs, or 10 Longbeards...

You would still need a DARKLING COVENS unit to sacrifice, since Corsairs are SCOURGE PRIVATEERS. Plus, I don't think that three slow foot units are the easiest way to get a battle tactic that requires all three of those units to charge in the same turn.

In general, elf orders and tactics are all about charging: Strike first after charging, free retreat move that increases mobility (and gives effective retreat and charge), victory points for charging with three units... Personally, if I was looking to include elves in a human-centered list, I would be looking at their high mobility/flying units, even if the footsloggers have better base stats. The foot elves are better for all/mostly elf lists, in my opinion.

[Doko]

i wouldnt call slow to units with move 9"(6+3 of order) loo

[Frowny]

I do think people are overblowing the fusiliers. The best buff on them is definitely the warforger. However he is also just generally excellent with many other things. The master of ballistics for +1/+1 is also great but only affects one unit. After that you start needing other things to make the most out of it like greatwater for all out attack on a  second unit. But at some point they have additional costs, giving up command traits or forcing a sub faction. You definitely can do it, but you can also do other cool things like 6 wizards at +2 to cast on 3d6 etc. 

I see one unit of 20-30 and a warforger in every list, since they are generally useful but once I start looking at second units I have to decide if I want to give up hallowheart or want to commit to a hurricanum etc. To buff them. 

[Myrdin]

Spoiler

Oh wow, so I went through the book and to be honest I strongly dislike it. Even hate it all things considered They removed some of my favorite units, Shadow Warriors being one, Pistollers being second. Srsly... the Demigryphs are also gone.... I cant believe they scrapped those as well... wow, I havent felt this dissapointed with a new army release for several years.

The first one I can understand though I hate the logic behind it.

The second I dont understand at all. That was an iconic unit of this army even from before AoS, and it was a GREAT unit.

And all of HE and WE stuff is just gone like that as well. Basically all that money, time and effort gone. I guess that was to be expected considering CoS book was a amalgamation to keep the old fans around. Shame on me having hoped for them to keep it and work on that multiracial themed city with all sorts of fun builds.

We got no replacement for that, zero zilch. Hell with removal of the Wood elf units, we lost the other fast, ranged cav options as well (to hell with Dark Riders).

Why GW ? Why was it necessary to remove this unit. Taking away Hellblaster and Hellstorm battery and giving us a crappy cannon in return. This entire book feels like a nerf to me. Even if not to the rules, than to the FUN aspect for sure.

Bunch of skills becoming HUMAN only, gives you a very clear idea where this army is going and whats going to happen few years down the line once CoS get the "next" book. No more DnD fantasy style mixed race cities. Sure some of the new stuff is cool but frankly it doesnt matter to me if bunch of my stuff cant be used any longer.

And whats pissing me off the most is, that sure ok take away the units, fine. But REPLACE them with units of equal worth.

The Ogor is a joke of a unit... and its a single model unit as well. Sure as hell wasnt worth loosing those Demigryphs over it.

I guess thats it for me as a CoS player... damn this makes me sad, unless GW suddenly adds bunch of those units I have to find a new placement for my miniatures with some other army, and I dont think there is one with the range of units to cover for the old (still current atm) CoS book. I still remember the joy I had making river bases for my Demi proxis... all of that worthless now. Maybe if they release the revamped Oldhammer Fantasy they might still see table, but thats a big if and when.

Just me venting the sadness and disappointment after reading the soon to be current battletome, feel free to skip.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Myrdin

[Doko]

mate you arent alone,many many people are angry and dont like this new book.

-old book had less subfactions,but each one had great skills,passives and were so diferent that each city felt as a diferent army with diferent playstyle while the new book havent alegiance and the cities are almost a 0 with useless stats or habilitys and each city have the same playstyle

-old book was also great mixing races,with battlemages or sorceres buffing dwarfs,or hurricanum to every race etc while new book feel and it is as 3 diferent armys that cant play together

-many old models removed and we got only 4 new no heroes units with a very diferent style that many people that loved old fantasy style dont like this new aos style.

-the worst is the feeling that isnt safe buy nothing out of the new humans,so only 12/55 of the units of the book are safe and the others maybe be removed in 2 or 3 years.

 

myself had 4k of citys but i only got removed the wild ryder,i really wanted all the high elfs but i was waiting for a battleforce or box with disscount to buy them but they never got any and so i didnt have any high elf.

finnally i accepted all these bad points about the new book and even bougth the anvilgard sc,one box of scourge privates and a sorceress,if they get removed then i can use them in old world that i really i am feeling more hype for it than for aos lately

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

  Hide contents

Oh wow, so I went through the book and to be honest I strongly dislike it. Even hate it all things considered They removed some of my favorite units, Shadow Warriors being one, Pistollers being second. Srsly... the Demigryphs are also gone.... I cant believe they scrapped those as well... wow, I havent felt this dissapointed with a new army release for several years.

The first one I can understand though I hate the logic behind it.

The second I dont understand at all. That was an iconic unit of this army even from before AoS, and it was a GREAT unit.

And all of HE and WE stuff is just gone like that as well. Basically all that money, time and effort gone. I guess that was to be expected considering CoS book was a amalgamation to keep the old fans around. Shame on me having hoped for them to keep it and work on that multiracial themed city with all sorts of fun builds.

We got no replacement for that, zero zilch. Hell with removal of the Wood elf units, we lost the other fast, ranged cav options as well (to hell with Dark Riders).

Why GW ? Why was it necessary to remove this unit. Taking away Hellblaster and Hellstorm battery and giving us a crappy cannon in return. This entire book feels like a nerf to me. Even if not to the rules, than to the FUN aspect for sure.

Bunch of skills becoming HUMAN only, gives you a very clear idea where this army is going and whats going to happen few years down the line once CoS get the "next" book. No more DnD fantasy style mixed race cities. Sure some of the new stuff is cool but frankly it doesnt matter to me if bunch of my stuff cant be used any longer.

And whats pissing me off the most is, that sure ok take away the units, fine. But REPLACE them with units of equal worth.

The Ogor is a joke of a unit... and its a single model unit as well. Sure as hell wasnt worth loosing those Demigryphs over it.

I guess thats it for me as a CoS player... damn this makes me sad, unless GW suddenly adds bunch of those units I have to find a new placement for my miniatures with some other army, and I dont think there is one with the range of units to cover for the old (still current atm) CoS book. I still remember the joy I had making river bases for my Demi proxis... all of that worthless now. Maybe if they release the revamped Oldhammer Fantasy they might still see table, but thats a big if and when.

Just me venting the sadness and disappointment after reading the soon to be current battletome, feel free to skip.

I absolutely understand the disappointment of units leaving. Some of them I don't quite understand, others I kind of do, but regardless it sucks. I ended up with at least 2k in elves that rotated out. For some of the units there is a good substitute, but others are harder. If you want to vent I understand completely and feel free to ignore the next section.

The easier unit proxies I see are.

Empire

Free Guild General on Foot -> Freeguild Marshal

Freeguild Crossbows/Handgunners -> Fusiliers (Needs rebasing, and perhaps parvises if you wanted)

Free Guild Guard -> Steel helms.

Free Guild Pistoliers/Outriders -> Caviliers (More of a stretch, but freeguild on horse is still freeguild on horse. Doesn't have range but is charge dependent. More of a fix for pistoliers)

 

High Elf.

Phoenix Guard -> Black Guard (Elf with halberd to Elf with halberd, this is what I'm planning on doing).

Shadow Warriors/Sisters of Avalorn -> Crossbow and Sword Corsairs. (I'm looking at doing this as well with my shadow warriors, and it lets you easily tell the difference between the double blade variant as well)

Phoenixs -> Black dragon riders, either dread lord or sorceress, just be clear.

Wood Elf.

 

Wildwood Rangers/Eternal Guard. -> Wildwood Rangers fit neatly as Executioners, I built my eternal guard without shields so I'm tempted to run eternal guard as executioners as well, though dread spears are also an option.

Sisters of the Thorn/Wild Riders -> Drake spawn Knights are still elves riding unusual mounts. 

Nomad Prince -> I'd probably run as one of the other elf heroes, either a sorceress or a fleet master. 

 

There are some harder things to work out what to substitute I have to admit, where you run the risk of making it too confusing. The difficult ones are.

Hellblaster/Helstorm.

Freeguild Greatswords.

Demigryph Knights.

I do wonder whether there was originally a heavy cav option and a heavy infantry option that didn't make it in, there is some speculation that there might be a wave 2 faster than you'd expect, though I'm unsure as to how much people are hoping on that one. My advice for these is more of a stretch.

The hellblaster and hellstorm, I think the closest is to mount it on a larger base including the crew and run as the new cannon. I'm still not sure how big the cannon base is, you could do some earth works around it to bulk up the original artillery.

Greatswords I think you run as executioners and just stress to the opponent that they are aelves and therefore cannot get human buffs. Its not the best, but it is the closest option that preserves their role. If you want to keep them as human, steel helms.

Demigryph knights are the one I'm struggling with the most. The best I can come up with is mount three on a single large base and run as a monster, probably the steam tank. Its a bit of a weird push, but best I can do.

 

Longer term, if you wanted your models to have a home in say, 4th or 5th edition? There are definitely options in lumineth. All the spear using aelves can be Lumineth Wardens. Shadow Warriors and sisters can be sentinels, riders can be Dawn Riders, heavy sword users can be blade lords, and I quite like the idea of using the halberd elves as stoneguard. If they ever remove aelves from cities they have a home in lumineth. 

As for dwarfs, the only way I see that happening is if there is a new dwarf faction that ends up taking the iron drake/breakers and long beards,.

 

I'm not trying to say what happened wasn't heart breaking, but I'm trying to look on the bright side. 

 

[JackStreicher]

8 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

30 Blissbarbs, that sort of thing. 

Also for all this talk about huge super competitive death star combos, most of us will never see a GT and will instead play with friends at the FLGS... Personally, I don't want to crush them because I still wanna play with them, and not putting 1000+ points into a huge death start combo but multiplying smaller ones is better for us and the other players.

20 Blissbarbs are already painful 🥲

Same, I dislike Death Stars. Instead I prefer multiple independent combos (feels more like an army).

However comp. Players show that Death Stars are sadly a thing. Even in most friendly games I will face netlists which is abnoxious.

[Malakithe]

So everything I want to run sucks. Got it. Project is dead before it begins 

[Myrdin]

7 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I absolutely understand the disappointment of units leaving. Some of them I don't quite understand, others I kind of do, but regardless it sucks. I ended up with at least 2k in elves that rotated out. For some of the units there is a good substitute, but others are harder. If you want to vent I understand completely and feel free to ignore the next section.

The easier unit proxies I see are.

Empire

Free Guild General on Foot -> Freeguild Marshal

Freeguild Crossbows/Handgunners -> Fusiliers (Needs rebasing, and perhaps parvises if you wanted)

Free Guild Guard -> Steel helms.

Free Guild Pistoliers/Outriders -> Caviliers (More of a stretch, but freeguild on horse is still freeguild on horse. Doesn't have range but is charge dependent. More of a fix for pistoliers)

 

High Elf.

Phoenix Guard -> Black Guard (Elf with halberd to Elf with halberd, this is what I'm planning on doing).

Shadow Warriors/Sisters of Avalorn -> Crossbow and Sword Corsairs. (I'm looking at doing this as well with my shadow warriors, and it lets you easily tell the difference between the double blade variant as well)

Phoenixs -> Black dragon riders, either dread lord or sorceress, just be clear.

Wood Elf.

 

Wildwood Rangers/Eternal Guard. -> Wildwood Rangers fit neatly as Executioners, I built my eternal guard without shields so I'm tempted to run eternal guard as executioners as well, though dread spears are also an option.

Sisters of the Thorn/Wild Riders -> Drake spawn Knights are still elves riding unusual mounts. 

Nomad Prince -> I'd probably run as one of the other elf heroes, either a sorceress or a fleet master. 

 

There are some harder things to work out what to substitute I have to admit, where you run the risk of making it too confusing. The difficult ones are.

Hellblaster/Helstorm.

Freeguild Greatswords.

Demigryph Knights.

I do wonder whether there was originally a heavy cav option and a heavy infantry option that didn't make it in, there is some speculation that there might be a wave 2 faster than you'd expect, though I'm unsure as to how much people are hoping on that one. My advice for these is more of a stretch.

The hellblaster and hellstorm, I think the closest is to mount it on a larger base including the crew and run as the new cannon. I'm still not sure how big the cannon base is, you could do some earth works around it to bulk up the original artillery.

Greatswords I think you run as executioners and just stress to the opponent that they are aelves and therefore cannot get human buffs. Its not the best, but it is the closest option that preserves their role. If you want to keep them as human, steel helms.

Demigryph knights are the one I'm struggling with the most. The best I can come up with is mount three on a single large base and run as a monster, probably the steam tank. Its a bit of a weird push, but best I can do.

 

Longer term, if you wanted your models to have a home in say, 4th or 5th edition? There are definitely options in lumineth. All the spear using aelves can be Lumineth Wardens. Shadow Warriors and sisters can be sentinels, riders can be Dawn Riders, heavy sword users can be blade lords, and I quite like the idea of using the halberd elves as stoneguard. If they ever remove aelves from cities they have a home in lumineth. 

As for dwarfs, the only way I see that happening is if there is a new dwarf faction that ends up taking the iron drake/breakers and long beards,.

 

I'm not trying to say what happened wasn't heart breaking, but I'm trying to look on the bright side. 

 

Funny thing you mentioning the Aelfs. I found out yesterday after doing the countdown that I have lot of those as well.
If I were to port my current CoS army to the Old world, they would fill out most of the High Elf or Dark Elf roster, despite me originaly starting it as a themed proxi WFB Empire 😅

After sleeping on it, you are right. I guess Lumineth would be a solid secondary home, some units would loose their place, but the waste would be minimal compared to what I am loosing now with the future CoS. Especially if the Pheonixes get added to them (just a rumor I heard, no real source).

So its either those or the Old World High Elves as long as they wont revert back to the horrible square base system. I am not rebasing the entire thing a second time xd.

I guess I should hop into the Lumineth thread and ask there for the model count as advise. Cheers

Edited August 17, 2023 by Myrdin

[Myrmidox]

I am sort of happy, that i am not the only one who is slightly disappointed with the new book. My rant in the The "mortals redesign" Discussion thread was more as justified, especially since I addressed the topic of conversions and proxies. Maybe some think that me calling the cities from now on Cities of Apartheid is a bit over the top, but this is in my eyes the only way i can describe the new rules.

My main concern is, that GW will with further Cities editions completly remove all old models, so all old dwarfs and elves and i don't believe we will get then a proper substitute for them. GW will not revert back, Warhammer models to Old World and AoS models to AoS, sure you can proxy and play them with count as and so on, but mostly no official "dual kits" for both systems.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

However comp. Players show that Death Stars are sadly a thing. Even in most friendly games I will face netlists which is abnoxious.

Yeah it's so sad that in more relaxed wargaming environments you still find tryhard wanabees that think emulating GT players is the way to play AoS... 

I think one of the biggest detriments of netlists is that they're a really expensive way to build your army... You're constantly having to buy what is "meta" at the moment and you have no long term buying plan. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Well I didn't get a bunch of Flagellants yet, but I did get all the Dark Elves from my FLGS; 2 Anvilguard boxes and 2 boxes of Executioners/Black Guard.  Not real sure which variant of the latter I'll build yet.  For sure the Sorceresses need at least 10 Black Guard nearby, and 10 Spearmen (got 3 boxes of the Spearmen on the way....probably go w 10 Spears/20 Darkshards).  But 20 Executioners is really really enticing.  Maybe some Spears could be fancy halberds instead w alternate heads and be Black Guard?

Looking at the Scourge Chariots, I think in units of 3 w the Fleetmaster AOA, that's 9 decent rend-2 shots, and vs a monster quite a bit of damage.  Hmmmm.  Hard to argue with the MW of the Drakespawn versions though so long as you have the Knights in range.

[Lord Krungharr]

Okay, I'm broke.  But 2 boxes of Drakespawn Knights, 2 Sorcereresses, and a super cool old Fleetmaster called Lokhir Fellheart on the way!  I think I'm good on Cities now.  They'll all be painted by the time 4th edition comes out and the next Cities tome vanquishes all old ****** models from the playable line

 

[Doko]

hnnn i would say that i hope that you have taken in mind the option that they gonna be deleted with next book and only usefull for old world?

i got the dark elfs acepting this fact.

also i get you feeling,i am a ultramega slow builder(i spend around 4 hours only to build one single miniature as one hammerer or one acourge private and i need as one week to build one monster).in fact my cities of sigmar army started as a dispossesed army in aos 0.0 6 years ago and i havent finished it yet

[Lord Krungharr]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

hnnn i would say that i hope that you have taken in mind the option that they gonna be deleted with next book and only usefull for old world?

i got the dark elfs acepting this fact.

also i get you feeling,i am a ultramega slow builder(i spend around 4 hours only to build one single miniature as one hammerer or one acourge private and i need as one week to build one monster).in fact my cities of sigmar army started as a dispossesed army in aos 0.0 6 years ago and i havent finished it yet

I'm actually a pretty fast and obsessive builder....it's the painting where I really drag.  But the new 'SlapChop' method worked really well and fast for my ninja rats!  So I may do that for these Umbraneth.  But I am not so certain they'll be gone before a couple  years at least.  And at the VERY least they'll be in the Old World, so by then if I don't even want to play, they'll be useful to someone and I can resell them to some extent.   

Was just reading the Fusiliers combos ranting.....Clan Eshin wants to see who shoots more MW!

[Causalis]

Can anyone recommend some good Executioner or Black Guard alternatives? I've a 3D printer at home so printing them would also be a possibility. 

[Marcvs]

3 hours ago, Causalis said:

Can anyone recommend some good Executioner or Black Guard alternatives? I've a 3D printer at home so printing them would also be a possibility. 

I like the Hisui Guard by Lost Kingdrom Miniatures, it's in their Night Elves range

https://www.lostkingdomminiatures.com/en/night-elves/408-hisui-guard.html

[The Lost Sigmarite]

16 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm actually a pretty fast and obsessive builder....it's the painting where I really drag.  But the new 'SlapChop' method worked really well and fast for my ninja rats!  So I may do that for these Umbraneth.  But I am not so certain they'll be gone before a couple  years at least.

For me, if I can get a Steelhelm to a tabletop+ level of painting in 3 hours, I'd be a happy player. If not, I'm skiping the edge highlights. Depends if the minis are well designed with not too many details (something I hated the Empire state troops for).

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Nice article about all the modelling options that could open to us with the new book. Converting will be a great way to represent the myriad different cultures that form the Cities. Every one is unique after all !

https://plasticcraic.blog/2023/08/18/cities-of-sigmar-hobby-free-for-all/

They sold me on using Corvus Cabal bits to convert some Lethis Freeguild... I'll be using some skulls and Raven Guard updrages alongside that to personalise them even further. I think I prefer an official colour scheme accompanied with conversions, than for an homebrew unconverted one.

[Doko]

1 hour ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

can get a Steelhelm to a tabletop+ level of painting in 3 hours

lol im so jealous, i need 4 hours only to build one of these foot infantry and then 13+ hours to paint one.

due to this my pyle of shame is huge(2k citys,4k vampires,1k fyreslayers,1k stormcast) and i only have painted a 10% of my models.

lately i try only buy boxes with disscount and that gonna be discounted as this anvilgard sc,or battleforces or army vs army boxes but even then my pyle of shame grow faster than my built miniatures lol