AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Hello, my fellow Dawners ! The Dawnbringer Crusades are marching out, and we will soon have to face the dangers of the Realms (our FLGS) with our fellow Sigmarites (lovingly assembled and painted minis).

With the new 2023 Battletome on the way and available on the wider Internets, I would like to start a discussion on the new book about tactics, insights, observations and even modelling for all of us who have taken up the Coin Malleus, on how best to use our Castelite formations, Duardin shieldwalls and other monsters on the tabletop. 

As with all things on TGA, especially new, let's be positive and find the best way to play this new tome together. 

Have fun !

[Myrdin]

Has the release date been confirmed already ?

If so when can we expect the book to hit the shelves ?

[Lord Krungharr]

I am stoked to finally run a Steam Tank army, among other things.  3-4 S'tanks, S'tank Commander, Hurricanum w Mage, Pontifex Z, Alchemite Warforger, love my allied Tree Revenants.  Not sure about all the traits and stuff yet but there's a bunch of good tech in this army.  Maybe a unit of 3 Gyrocopters because WOW 3 IN A UNIT!  That's pretty fun.

I always liked Living City, and my initial thoughts for that are something like 4 outflanking Luminarks....and who cares what else!

Black Dragon Lord in Misthaven with fast approaching Hydras, that's good stuff right there....things are gonna get charged turn1 in Misthaven, especially with knights of any sort.

Guess I should care more about scoring objectives.....

[Lord Krungharr]

Cites of Sigmar Unboxing + Battletome - Imgur

[Asbestress]

Just now, Lord Krungharr said:

I am stoked to finally run a Steam Tank army, among other things.  3-4 S'tanks, S'tank Commander, Hurricanum w Mage, Pontifex Z, Alchemite Warforger, love my allied Tree Revenants.  Not sure about all the traits and stuff yet but there's a bunch of good tech in this army.  Maybe a unit of 3 Gyrocopters because WOW 3 IN A UNIT!  That's pretty fun.

I always liked Living City, and my initial thoughts for that are something like 4 outflanking Luminarks....and who cares what else!

Black Dragon Lord in Misthaven with fast approaching Hydras, that's good stuff right there....things are gonna get charged turn1 in Misthaven, especially with knights of any sort.

Guess I should care more about scoring objectives.....

I agree with the Steam Tank and Gyrocopter part, but Sylvaneth? Won't somebody think of the manufacturing in Greywater?

Battletome looks about what I expected, but now I'm once again unsure of how to paint my army... I'll probably set aside a squad of Steelhelms from the Army Set to test out some schemes (I'm thinking Greywater, Lethis, Settler's Gain or Vindicarum, and trying to homebrew a Azyrheim/Azyrite scheme with azure, gold, yellow and white for my Hurricanum's escort). Definitely doing at least one Castelite Formation with 2 Fusiliers, 1 Steelhelms, 2 Fusil-Majors and a Cannon. And hopefully finally finishing my dream of a Steam Tank squadron with a Commander and two regulars.

[Lord Krungharr]

Yeah I'd use Greywater when going full mechanized.  But isn't that a swamp?  Swamps have trees

[Asbestress]

Just now, Lord Krungharr said:

Yeah I'd use Greywater when going full mechanized.  But isn't that a swamp?  Swamps have trees

Swamp trees are perfect for fueling steam boilers,
Especially when running the only city that can't ally with Sylvaneth 😛

[Beliman]

18 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Cites of Sigmar Unboxing + Battletome - Imgur

This book is beautyful!

Funny to see Malus and Belegar as generic characters, but I'm impressed by the whole design of the book. kudos GW

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Talking about Cities, for starters I think the army set is pretty well thought out, you have ~500 pts (520 560 precisely) of Cities stuff that's just ubiquitously good whatever City you're in, at a cool money discount. Marshal and Warforger are both good support heroes, Steelhelms I think you will need to run in reinforced units so having 20 in a go is great, and Cavaliers give a nice hammer. 

Then it's about what you want to tech into to reach 1k points. I feel like the best bets is either Fusiliers, an Ogor and/or a Cannon. However, there's also the Cavalier-Marshal, who looks so good I think some people (me included) will want to include him just because of that.

Edited August 5, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Found this nice little combo, it could be great at 1000 pts scale. For it, you need 5 Cavaliers and a Cavalier-Marshal.

Take a Cavalier-Marshal, give him the Sigmarite Warhammer artefact and the priest trait. He now does a maximum of 12 damage at rend -3. Now make him give Engage the Foe + Hammer of Sigmar to the Cavaliers, they all get an extra attack at +1 to wound. The 5 man Cavalier squad goes to 21 attacks (without hooves) with +1 damage -1 rend, for a potential of 42 wounds dealt. And that's without the Marshall swinging in melee. Not bad !

[Ragnar72]

Hey folks, do you think we can combine the following:

1. greywater fastness ( 3 times all out attack)

2. command trait „master of ballistics“ (when giving all out attack, it works with +1 to hit AND +1 to wound)

Seems usefull for your fuseliers and or hunters

[dekay]

Most people seem to be talking about the Freeguilds, especially all the new units, but there's a real possibility that we'll see some Aelf based lists doing pretty well:

Let's get the bad out of the way - all three basic infantry units are pretty terrible. Unless there's some crazy combo I can't see yet, their only use might be to serve as batteries for the Sorceresses.

Sorceresses, though. Tenebrael Blades spell is insane.  Especially if we combine it with either potential +4 to cast in Settler's Gain, or 3d6 casting in Hallowheart. Give another Sorceress Hoarfrost instead, cast both on basically anything and it turns into a blender.

Like, say, this extremely cheap and very buffable corsair horde. (should corsair be the order's clanrats, lorewise? Not really. But we work with what we've been given.)

Dark Riders will be annoying as hell. They are fast, relatively durable, require zero buffs or support, are impossible to pin down and just passively shut down commands. And their shooting got buffed enough so they're a credible threat to enemy chaff.

Executioners' damage output has doubled.

Black Guard stole the Phoenix Guard's ward and are now the toughest infantry in the book.

Hydra basically needs to be killed in one go or it will heal.

Dreadlord is not all that great on his own, but provides a free charge re-roll both for himself and the knights (and there's a potential for a stabby aura build with the duellist warlord trait)

The knights are notably cheaper than cavaliers, come with +1 to charge, have pretty solid hitting power and with a coordinated charge, they insanely buff the hitting power of the chariots.

The chariots come in units again, and can do like 18 mortal wounds on charge before they even start attacking.

 

Still not sure what to think about Kharybdiss, Scourgerunner and the Dragon Sorceress. But they're not necessarily bad.

 

I'm not saying that pure aelf army is viable, but I am saying that once you put into your list all the Aelven things worth using, you have used up  a lot of your points allowance.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, dekay said:

Let's get the bad out of the way - all three basic infantry units are pretty terrible. Unless there's some crazy combo I can't see yet, their only use might be to serve as batteries for the Sorceresses.

Good post. I really agree with what you said, so please don't take this as a put down, but I am not sure how in the year of our lord 2023 people still don't understand that 10 bodies on 25mm bases for 90 points is actually super good. Dreadspears are extremely good in their role, which is to capture points, be chaff and make sorceresses cast at +2.

[dekay]

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Good post. I really agree with what you said, so please don't take this as a put down, but I am not sure how in the year of our lord 2023 people still don't understand that 10 bodies on 25mm bases for 90 points is actually super good. Dreadspears are extremely good in their role, which is to capture points, be chaff and make sorceresses cast at +2.

The more I think of it, more sense it makes tbh. I might have judged them too harshly based on the stats alone - despite the disappointing statline, dreadspears do look like an auto include in any army that has a Sorceress in it. And they can't be simultaneously terrible and an auto include, so they must be good ; )

No real niche for bleakswords, though. They compete with dreadspears, corsairs and steelhelms at the same time and I don't think they come out favourably in those comparisons.

Jury's still out on darkshards, though - unlike the two others it's reasonable to expect them to kill something and there's avery limited pool of buffs that can help them with it. And dark riders can do chaff clearing as well.

[Cronotekk]

RIP Dreadlord on Black Dragon, was almost viable for a year or so

[The Lost Sigmarite]

7 hours ago, dekay said:

Most people seem to be talking about the Freeguilds, especially all the new units, but there's a real possibility that we'll see some Aelf based lists doing pretty well:

Let's get the bad out of the way - all three basic infantry units are pretty terrible. Unless there's some crazy combo I can't see yet, their only use might be to serve as batteries for the Sorceresses.

Sorceresses, though. Tenebrael Blades spell is insane.  Especially if we combine it with either potential +4 to cast in Settler's Gain, or 3d6 casting in Hallowheart. Give another Sorceress Hoarfrost instead, cast both on basically anything and it turns into a blender.

It's the old Vitriolic Spray from Anvilguard all over again - glad they kept it. 

7 hours ago, dekay said:

Dark Riders will be annoying as hell. They are fast, relatively durable, require zero buffs or support, are impossible to pin down and just passively shut down commands. And their shooting got buffed enough so they're a credible threat to enemy chaff.

Hydra basically needs to be killed in one go or it will heal.

Dark Riders I think you could mix in with non Aelf army and still do fine because of all the reasons you cited, but mostly because they're strong and independant aelfs that don't require buffs from other aelves. Same for the Hydra imo, it requires very little support to work. You could see a couple Hydras in Excelsis for the extra wound and have both fight on objectives, they're going to be really sticky anchors here provided they get Steelhelm/Corsair support. 

Overall I do think the Aelves got the better of the rules compared to the Duardins in the new book.

Edited August 6, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[dekay]

21 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:

RIP Dreadlord on Black Dragon, was almost viable for a year or so

He seems ok - Gives Serpentis units (which are all quite good) a charge re-roll, breath attack is not bad, and if he charges together with the knights and chariots, it's a battle tactic won. Unlocking drakespawn as a battleline is likely worth something too, they seem quite solid for their points. With the duellist trait he might be a bit of a meme build, but the ring turning him invisible vastly increases the chances of him making it into combat.

 

4 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

It's the old Vitriolic Spray from Anvilguard all over again - glad they kept it. 

It's better! Spray needed to be close to the target, this one can be done while hidden behind the attacking unit. Shame it doesn't work on shooting, though, darkshards don't have much in a way of buffs.

Edited August 6, 2023 by dekay

[Lord Krungharr]

24 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:

RIP Dreadlord on Black Dragon, was almost viable for a year or so

I wouldn't say that, he still gives the reroll charge aura, and a monster is handy to have.  I think for launching 2x3 Drakespawn chariots and a unit of the Drake-Knights into combat for MW effects he's worth it!  Use the Advance in Formation Order in Misthaven for that.  And then for the 2nd wave the Dreadlord and 3 Hydras come in.

Had I not just purchased 6 Steam Tanks, a Hurricanum and Luminark bits, I'd have bought the Dark Aelves.  Frankly I would dump my Slaves to Darkness for them except I love my Chaos Chariots....hmmm I guess I could just mount some Dark Aelves on them and paint them purplish?!

Here's my first list, which admittedly, is probably terrible, but THEME COUNTS.  I'm leaving the turrets removable on 4 of the tanks to be the Living City laser-corps....then I'll have to decide what to fill it out with.  Maybe Dark green-Aelves

Edited August 6, 2023 by Lord Krungharr

[Cronotekk]

2 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I wouldn't say that, he still gives the reroll charge aura, and a monster is handy to have.  I think for launching 2x3 Drakespawn chariots and a unit of the Drake-Knights into combat for MW effects he's worth it!  Use the Advance in Formation Order in Misthaven for that.  And then for the 2nd wave the Dreadlord and 3 Hydras come in.

Had I not just purchased 6 Steam Tanks, a Hurricanum and Luminark, I'd have bought the Dark Aelves.  Frankly I would dump my Slaves to Darkness for them except I love my Chaos Chariots....hmmm I guess I could just mount some Dark Aelves on them and paint them purplish?!

He went from a decent beat stick to a buff piece

When I field a giant dragon I don’t expect it to be a fragile pillow fisted buff piece but that’s where we are now

[Lord Krungharr]

But he's a delicate sophisticated aelf-dragon with refined tastes and has become used to a higher standard of living.....

[The Lost Sigmarite]

12 minutes ago, dekay said:

It's better! Spray needed to be close to the target, this one can be done while hidden behind the attacking unit. Shame it doesn't work on shooting, though, darkshards don't have much in a way of buffs.

Yeah, looks like Aelves will have to do much of the heavy lifting in melee. Their shooting is quite weak imo (same for the Duardins if you ask me). Too short ranged, so they need to expose themselves to shoot, and as they're quite flimsy with their 5+ saves...

Also btw looked into it and I'm not sold on the Kharybdiss. It has things going for it, like a large base and requiring zero buffs or support, but for 20 extra points I'd rather take a Hydra that I know will be very tough to kill, rather than a Kharybdiss with a nice but gimmicky ability. 

[Azamar]

54 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:

My only wins have been from buffed beatstick black dragon with drakescale cloak and shield to be durable while doing decent damage, and then vitriolic spray on a unit followed by 30 Darkshards shooting.

Then they removed drakescale cloak, made the dragon shield worthless, removed the +1 wound aura command, and reduced its damage. And then they removed vitriolic spray too

 

And strangely they did give an extra attack to the basic infantry but got rid of their east horde bonus hit buff. I guess 2 3+ 4+ - 1d attacks would’ve been too much lol

Time to break out the 3d printer for the arbitrarily good units this edition

Just carrying this over from the rumour thread but keen to talk about this- my current cities army is an aelf exclusive one. I’m gutted to have just lost a great deal of variety (I’ll especially miss the phoenixes and the sisters of the watch) but I’m reasonably happy with how what’s left is looking

I hadn’t noticed that the dragon’s damage went down, which is disappointing and a strange thing to do on a unit that wasn’t exactly good in the first place. 
 

I’ll miss vitriolic spray not working for darkshards (or bladewind for that matter) but the high cast and short range always made it a bit unreliable for me. But as the spiritual successor is cast on a friendly unit I think we’ll be seeing it in action more reliably now, plus it’ll bypass the increasingly common spell shrug (especially against khorne or kragnos) 

I hate to say it, but if you want dark elf units that are “good” then you’ll need to get that printer going. But honestly that was true last edition as well. At least there’s a lot more choice for decent units other than black guard now. I’d rate drakespawn knights and chariots, dark riders and especially executioners all as very good now, and the hydra doesn’t look bad either.

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Good post. I really agree with what you said, so please don't take this as a put down, but I am not sure how in the year of our lord 2023 people still don't understand that 10 bodies on 25mm bases for 90 points is actually super good. Dreadspears are extremely good in their role, which is to capture points, be chaff and make sorceresses cast at +2.

Sure, still feels bad fir them to be just chaff (the book has enough chaff already)

[Lord Krungharr]

One day I hope there's a discovery of how to make swarms of Gyrocopters good.  Maybe if the bloody Cogfort ever gets a model and rules the entire Ironweld Arsenal will get some juice money.  I really hope that ends up being an Incarnate or otherwise god-type model like Kragnos, who could be an Order warmaster across armies buffing their armor and/or shooting.

[Lord Krungharr]

Working on my Steam Tank strategeries.  Made some formation bubble diagrams; or you could make some framed art prints with them?!  Not easy to fit 'em all in every bubble but #2 manages to do so.  This way the Commander's Advance in Formation Order bubble works on everything for the extra 3" movement, all get the Hyshian 6+ ward and Hurricanum +1 to hit, and if the spell goes off the Warforger's MW bonuses. 

But it lacks the entire front line reaching across the table turn 1 potential of #3.  In that setup, 1 tank has to do without the ward save, and 1 without the Hurricanum buff, and 3 without the Advance in Formation.  And I rather like the idea of a fast tank army, so I'm thinking Misthavn would make up for that last bit, with 3 tanks moving D6" in my hero phase.  

The Orders will be pretty fun.  Running/shooting/and charging after overpowering the boilers, and then mass splatting tanks into something will be very satisfying!  I wanna fight Sons of Behemat.