Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[readercolin]

Rolled this army out for some testing, and even with my dice betraying me still managed to take down a Morathi/Gotrek list.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (285)*
- Spell: Starfall
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)**
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Command Trait: Master of the Celestial Menagerie
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Light of the Young Stars
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)**
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)**
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 86
Drops: 2
 

My opponents army (as best I know):

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Khelt Nar
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Morathi-Khaine (330)*
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
The Shadow Queen (330)*
Bloodwrack Medusa (120)*
- General
- Command Trait: The Circling Flock
- Artefact: Gaisa's Falx
- Lore of Shadows: Mirror Dance
Gotrek Gurnisson (435)*
- Allies
15 x Blood Stalkers (510)*
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Blood Sisters (140)*
10 x Witch Aelves (120)*
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 435 / 400
Wounds: 82
Drops: 1

Battleplan was Veins of Ghur.  My opponent had a 1 drop and got to deploy first, so I started the Fulminators, Longstrikes, and a squad of vindictors in the sky, and the Taurelion, Stardrake, and a squad of Vindictors sitting in a corner out of range of my opponent.  They went first and moved up, and managed to take some potshots at the vindictors with the 2 blood stalkers that got in range.  My turn I moved up, and dropped the Fulminators in their back line, and the Longstrikes next to my Taurelion.  I then proceeded to roll 7 1's between hits and wounds from the longstrikes, and 3 1's from the stardrake, and the fulminators failed to charge, making my turn 1 an almost complete flop.

Turn 2, my opponent went first, and decided to focus on the Fulminators, respecting them more than the longstrikes.  With all out defense, the Fulminators then proceeded to fail 15/25 3+ saves, took 3 mortal wounds as well, and then got charged by the Blood Sisters, leaving 1 alive with 1 wound left.  The Shadow Queen charged my Vindictor screen to get on the objective, but decided to throw damage at the stardrake so he could do broken ranks the following turn - dealing 13 damage total to the stardrake between shooting and melee.  Yes, there were a LOT of 1's involved in saves.  On my turn, the Stardrake decided it had enough and retreated, but I was able to put both the stardrake and Taurelion on the objective, taking it from the Shadow Queen, and keeping the Vanguard Raptors within 3" to get +1 to hit.  This time between hero phase shooting and shooting phase, I managed to miss 15/24 shots with the raptors, and those dice got banished to dice jail.  Battle tactic was savage spearhead with the last fulminator hiding from my opponents snakes and the last squad of vindictors hopping down on the far side of the board (where they then proved to be mostly irrelevant for the rest of the game).

Turn 3 my opponent went first again, killed my fulminator with his blood stalkers, and tried to take down the stardrake with the shadow queen and the blood stalkers.  This time though he got lucky and survived on 15 wounds, but so he wasn't able to take the objective from me, though he took the 2 new ones.  On my turn, the stardrake retreated again, taking one of the objectives from my opponent, and the vanguard raptors were able to reduce the blood stalkers down to 4 models (my opponent rallied a total of 7 back during the game).

Finally turn 4 I got the double, and morathi was at 10 wounds.  I was able to kill her in the shooting phase, as well as finish off the blood stalkers, and then the stardrake charged and ate the Bloodwrack Medusa, leaving me controlling 2 objectives, and with the stardrake sitting on 13 wounds taken.  Also, that last squad of vindictors charged his witch aelves in a totally necessary show of force and a lot of nothing proceeded to happen.  I also managed to shoot off his summoned Khinerai from the last objective, but didn't get any bodies near it to take it.  On his turn, he charged the stardrake with his Blood sisters and proceeded to get them eaten.

Turn 5, I took all 3 objectives and then stared down Gotrek, who still hadn't managed to get into combat this game, while healing the stardrake back up to 11 wounds taken.  On his turn, I gave the stardrake finest hour, and gotrek finally got to charge something.  With his two activations, he then managed to take the stardrake to 17 wounds, leaving it alive (barely).  End score was 44 to 19.

--------------------

Overall, my opponent and I both though the game was his after turn 2, strictly because my dice rolled so far below average.  Average dice rolls would have lead to his blood stalkers being eliminated by the bottom of turn 2, and my fulminators both surviving with more models remaining, and actually having hit his blood sisters at least once in melee (which... didn't happen... at all... they managed to do 3 mortal wounds with breath attacks and then exactly nothing in melee).  However, my opponent made a mistake in trying to take down the stardrake and ignoring the Longstrikes, though the focus fire on the Fulminators was probably a good call on target prioritization.  I also got lucky in that the objectives all ended up coming down on the side of the board that I had deployed on. 

As for my army, aside from the +1 to hit bubble, the Taurelion got off Mystic Shield on turn 1 and did nothing else but sit on the edge of an objective for the entire game.  Replacing it with... basically anything else would have probably had a bigger impact, and would have also meant that I could have fit my army into a single 1 drop battalion.  Everything else I felt had a big enough impact on the game, though rolling better would have made the game look a LOT different on turns 1 and 2.

As it is, I like my list for competitive games (mostly because I want an excuse to play with a stardrake), though it does seem to potentially be a bit oppressive for more casual matches.  However, if I wanted to change things up and try to go for something in a big event, I would probably look to run something like the following:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
*Battle Regiment
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 87
Drops: 1

This list would let me get the thunderbolt volley off turn 1, even if I needed to be hiding in a corner away from my opponents one drop list, as translocate would let me get them into position.  Annihilators coming from the sky would also give me another solid hammer unit, and the Imperatant could protect himself by staying in the sky as well.  The Taurelion isn't needed for the +1 to hit, as that can be replicated just fine with all out attack, as I'm not needing him to babysit multiple shooting units.  This list can run as either Knights-Excelsior or Hammers of Sigmar (annihilators or fulminators as battleline), but a +1 to hit for the Annihilators seems better than a 6+ ward near objectives.

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, Boar said:

On Warhammer Weakly back when book came out Vince had toughts that relatively high points for dude made sense only if they feared him spammed. So who knows?

I'm sure Neil is right that KJ will get a points increase, but general consensus was he was already overcosted so Vince was probably right too. especially since Knight Venator got hard nerfed AND is overcosted.

[Lucur]

Maybe we see 40ks rule of three adapted (no more than 3 copies of the same warscroöl unless it's battleline)

[Squark]

The other possibility that would rein the spam in a little would be to make gaze of sigmar once/turn regardless of the number of KJs. Without the castle breaking turn 1, the list wouldn't have the teeth to compete against a number of threats.

[feadair]

9 hours ago, readercolin said:

However, if I wanted to change things up and try to go for something in a big event, I would probably look to run something like the following:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
*Battle Regiment
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 87
Drops: 1

This list would let me get the thunderbolt volley off turn 1, even if I needed to be hiding in a corner away from my opponents one drop list, as translocate would let me get them into position.  Annihilators coming from the sky would also give me another solid hammer unit, and the Imperatant could protect himself by staying in the sky as well.  The Taurelion isn't needed for the +1 to hit, as that can be replicated just fine with all out attack, as I'm not needing him to babysit multiple shooting units.  This list can run as either Knights-Excelsior or Hammers of Sigmar (annihilators or fulminators as battleline), but a +1 to hit for the Annihilators seems better than a 6+ ward near objectives.

My current list is very similar, except that I replaced Fulminators with 3 Evocators on Dracolines and a Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline that gets an Amulet of Destiny (total of 480 points, so Vindicators get downgraded to Liberators). My reasoning was that I wanted wizards for unbinding and a fighty hero so that I am not cold to the Apex Predators mission. 

[Geimund]

Has anyone else noticed the Judicator with Skybolt warscroll no longer has a prime section on the app? (The Judicator with Boltstorm still does).. Does this mean they technically can't issue commands to themselves anymore?

Edit: Just checked and the book had prime rules on release..

Edited October 27, 2021 by Geimund

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

51 minutes ago, Geimund said:

Has anyone else noticed the Judicator with Skybolt warscroll no longer has a prime section on the app? (The Judicator with Boltstorm still does).. Does this mean they technically can't issue commands to themselves anymore?

Edit: Just checked and the book had prime rules on release..

Only books and FAQs contain actual rules changes. If a rule in the app differs from the books, it's just a mistake. As far as I am aware, there was no change in the FAQ that removed the unit champion from Judicators.

[ledha]

23 hours ago, Horizons said:

I don't know why but I really love the Knight-Judicator spam list.

I agree, I hope it doesn't become the defacto list. I haven't seen it or played against it, so obviously hard to judge, but I think the rest of the book has enough bite that we'll see some diversity in Stormcast lists.

I just love that a Warscroll which was almost unanimously panned and thrown aside by most people, myself included, did so well.

I also love the idea of there being No safe space to deepstrike with so many good-gryph boys and shooty boys on guard.

Now to think of 4 cool Knight-Judicator conversions.

 

Yeah the idea of a stormcast list being basically a small hunter party destroying an army of evildoers is actually super cool

[PJetski]

The App Is Always Wrong

[CommissarRotke]

4 hours ago, Geimund said:

Has anyone else noticed the Judicator with Skybolt warscroll no longer has a prime section on the app? (The Judicator with Boltstorm still does).. Does this mean they technically can't issue commands to themselves anymore?

Edit: Just checked and the book had prime rules on release..

this feels beyond parody, I bet the old app still has the Prime rules

[The World Tree]

3 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

this feels beyond parody, I bet the old app still has the Prime rules

Not really beyond parody. It is in beta - there are mistakes. Report the bug and move on

[PJetski]

The Stormkeep was on Warhammer Weekly last night to do a deep dive on the Stormcast 3.0 battletome.

We talked about almost every unit in the book, how to approach battles in terms of your overall strategy and army composition, and even featured some lists at the end.

My favourite part was showing off the Karazai + 5 support heroes list 

[Horizons]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

My favourite part was showing off the Karazai + 5 support heroes list 

Ugh, now I have to find time in my day to listen to this.

Btw great work on the Stormkeep,  a lot of insights on 3.0 Stormcast.

[macrake]

5 hours ago, PJetski said:

The Stormkeep was on Warhammer Weekly last night to do a deep dive on the Stormcast 3.0 battletome.

We talked about almost every unit in the book, how to approach battles in terms of your overall strategy and army composition, and even featured some lists at the end.

My favourite part was showing off the Karazai + 5 support heroes list 

Your Karazai list only has 1 battleline unit, right? You mention Karazai making sdg battleline, but isn't it only stardrake and knight draconis that do that?

I so badly want the big dragons to work, but then I start doing the math and it's just, oh, I could just buff up 4 SDG and be far better off..

[Tizianolol]

Guys anniehalators got 50 mm base size? Thx all

[PJetski]

38 minutes ago, macrake said:

Your Karazai list only has 1 battleline unit, right? You mention Karazai making sdg battleline, but isn't it only stardrake and knight draconis that do that?

I so badly want the big dragons to work, but then I start doing the math and it's just, oh, I could just buff up 4 SDG and be far better off..

Any DRACONITH general makes Stormdrakes battleline, and both big drakes have the DRACONITH keyword

Stormdrakes are great, especially buffed up, but you can't heal them with Heroic Recovery or use Finest Hour, etc.

19 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys anniehalators got 50 mm base size? Thx all

They are definitely on 40mm bases, there seems to be a typo on GWs website

Edited October 28, 2021 by PJetski

[JackStreicher]

22 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys anniehalators got 50 mm base size? Thx all

40mm like all Stormcast except a few

[macrake]

9 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Any DRACONITH general makes Stormdrakes battleline, and both big drakes have the DRACONITH keyword

Stormdrakes are great, especially buffed up, but you can't heal them with Heroic Recovery or use Finest Hour, etc.

They are definitely on 40mm bases, there seems to be a typo on GWs website

Well damn, you're right. That bumps up the dragon princes for me. Congrats on guesting Vince's show. Was a great watch. Looking forward to more content from you guys.

[Andrethegreat]

On 10/27/2021 at 12:05 PM, ledha said:

Yeah the idea of a stormcast list being basically a small hunter party destroying an army of evildoers is actually super cool

I had a some game time with the Knight-Judicator, I missed most of my shots with him, but then again I only had one in my list.

  

[PJetski]

The Stormkeep #10 is live now!

We have updated our unit/allegiance ability tier list to account for ~6 weeks of gameplay and the changes in the FAQ

If you're a new player check out the summary slide at the end of the video to get an idea of which units you should focus on for your collection

Edited October 29, 2021 by PJetski

[macrake]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

The Stormkeep #10 is live now!

We have updated our unit/allegiance ability tier list to account for ~6 weeks of gameplay and the changes in the FAQ

If you're a new player check out the summary slide at the end of the video to get an idea of which units you should focus on for your collection

I think you're undervaluing Celestial Warbringers. I've found it to be very solid in a mixed list with raptors. It's a reroll in every phase - hero phase, shooting phase, enemy charge phase for unleash hell. Rerolling a save against a big damage attack is also pretty great. With our excellent saves, very few attacks get through, so having that reroll is super effective.

For something like a drakes+raptors list it's really good. Vindicators on 4 drakes would get you about 5 more dmg on the charge, whereas warbringers will give you about the same, if you take into account raptor doubletap and a reroll on one drake attack.

Vindicators will do nothing on the opponents turn, whereas warbringers will at the very least let you reroll a save in the shooting and combat phase.

It's doing something every turn, including the enemy turn. I'd put it in A tier. Just my perspective.

Edited October 29, 2021 by macrake

[Dogmantra]

2 hours ago, macrake said:

Vindicators will do nothing on the opponents turn, whereas warbringers will at the very least let you reroll a save in the shooting and combat phase.

Vindicators does last until your next hero phase, so providing you got a charge off and didn't wipe the target or get wiped in return then you may still get something out of it.

But yeah I'm really warming up to Celestial Warbringers, especially if you're bringing low quantity high value attacks which seem to be popular. Compare with Celestial Vindicators ability which is more useful for high quantity low value attacks, but the units that do that aren't really in favour right now (evocators seem the obvious one).

Edited October 29, 2021 by Dogmantra

[PJetski]

8 hours ago, macrake said:

I think you're undervaluing Celestial Warbringers. I've found it to be very solid in a mixed list with raptors. It's a reroll in every phase - hero phase, shooting phase, enemy charge phase for unleash hell. Rerolling a save against a big damage attack is also pretty great. With our excellent saves, very few attacks get through, so having that reroll is super effective.

For something like a drakes+raptors list it's really good. Vindicators on 4 drakes would get you about 5 more dmg on the charge, whereas warbringers will give you about the same, if you take into account raptor doubletap and a reroll on one drake attack.

Vindicators will do nothing on the opponents turn, whereas warbringers will at the very least let you reroll a save in the shooting and combat phase.

It's doing something every turn, including the enemy turn. I'd put it in A tier. Just my perspective.

I think you've made good arguments here, and maybe I am undervaluing it. Here are some things you did not mention:

Vindicators bonus activates the turn you charge but the effect lasts until your next hero phase, so you can get multiple combat phases. Vindicators can create situations where you have two different units with explodinf 6s (because you can still use Blessed Weapons). Vindicators also allows units deployed in Scions to get the bonus, which you normally cant do with Blessed Weapons.

Rerolls are good, but even rerolling a 2+ is less average damage than exploding 6s, and less potential maximum damage. 

The rerolls cant be used on abilities like dragons breath attacks and starsoul maces.

Rerolling a single dice is good with Raptors, but is less useful for our highest damage shooter (Crossbow Judicators) since they have worse accuracy and higher volume of attacks.

Picking Warbringers doesnt make your army actively worse but the effect isnt great, it requires specific kinds of units (Raptors, Grandhammers, Stardrake?) and those units perform better in other lists/stormhosts.

I might be undervaluing it at D, but I don't think its worth an A ranking. Really wish Warbringers had something like battleline Evocators.

[macrake]

I had actually missed that the exploding 6's last untill next hero phase. That makes it a tougher choice. Unless I'm going for Gardus or Aventis, I think CW is the best option for a raptor focused list.

I'm just a huge fan of being able to selectively reroll a save when it really matters.

Edited October 30, 2021 by macrake

[Dogmantra]

7 hours ago, PJetski said:

Rerolls are good, but even rerolling a 2+ is less average damage than exploding 6s, and less potential maximum damage. 

Higher standard deviation on exploding 6s though. Depends on what you're running. For fewer high quality attacks I'd prefer the reliability of rerolls.