Horrors of Tzeentch, Maximum unit size & Rally, Fold Reality, Icon Bearer.

[AaronWilson]

Hi all, I'd like to have a discussion about the current lack of clarity in regards to Pink horrors, maximum unit size and what can / can't be returned to the unit. To kick off we have this clause from the core rules - "During a battle, if a unit is at its maximum unit size, no further models can be added to it and any that would be added to it are removed from play". 

The new DoT errata states "Split and Split Again Add the following to the end of the rule: ‘Iridescent Horrors, Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors that flee cannot Split and Split Again. This ability allows the number of models in this unit to exceed its maximum size.’"

So we're clear that the split mechanic allows a unit to go above it's starting size, for example a unit of 10 Pink Horrors via Split and Split again can become a with a higher number of models then 10. 

The lack of clarity is when it comes to mechanics like Rally - "You can use this command ability at the start of the hero phase. The unit that receives the command must be more than 3" from all enemy units. Roll 1 dice for each slain model from that unit. For each 6, you can return 1 slain model to that unit."

Icon Bearer - "1 in every 10 Pink Horror models in this unit can be a Pink Horror Icon Bearer. If the unmodified roll for a battleshock test for this unit while it includes any Pink Horror Icon Bearers is 1, you can return D6 slain Horrors of Tzeentch models to this unit, and no models from this unit will flee in that battleshock phase."

Fold Reality - "Fold Reality has a casting value of 7. If successfully cast, pick 1 friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON unit wholly within 18" of the caster and visible to them, and roll a dice. On a 1, that unit is destroyed. On a 2+, you can return a number of slain models equal to that roll to that unit. Set up the models one at a time within 1" of a model from that unit that has not been returned in that
phase. The models can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if the friendly unit was within 3" of that enemy unit before any models were returned."

So when the situation occurs where there is a unit of 5 Pink Horrors & 10 Blues, can I use the Icon bearer rule? As the unit is technically already above it's maximum pitched battle size, which is 10. However, due to the wording all the above abilities using "return" not "add" I believe the case is that RAW you can Rally, Icon Bearer or Fold Reality to "return" the 5 pinks that are dead. 

I believe this would be the case in a following turn, where you may have 15 blues & 10 brims and would able to use Fold Reality, or Rally to return slain models.

What are others view on the situation, it's not a clear one but I believe the terminology on the following abilities being "return" not "add" does allow the returning of models in this case above it's "maximum" size. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by AaronWilson

[Sinfullyvannila]

I don't think there are any rules interactions. The only exception to the max size limit is SaSA. You can still use resurrection mechanics on edge cases like instant model death or if you choose to use Petty Vengeance. Also the Icon Bearer still is useful because it lets you autopass Battle shock tests.

[NinthMusketeer]

C'mon guys, the errata makes it so the split ability functions as intended; trying to rules-lawyer it so all abilities which return slain models bypass core rules is obviously an unsportsmanlike exploit. Doubly so for horrors being so good already. And that is even before getting into the actual RAW, which is quite clear that splitting, and only splitting, can add models to the unit when it is at or above its starting size. No event judge would ever let the endless horror bloat interpretation stand.

With all due respect, some people here need to step back and re-evaluate the attitude with which they are approaching the game.

[Kasper]

On 7/15/2021 at 9:08 PM, NinthMusketeer said:

C'mon guys, the errata makes it so the split ability functions as intended; trying to rules-lawyer it so all abilities which return slain models bypass core rules is obviously an unsportsmanlike exploit. Doubly so for horrors being so good already. And that is even before getting into the actual RAW, which is quite clear that splitting, and only splitting, can add models to the unit when it is at or above its starting size. No event judge would ever let the endless horror bloat interpretation stand.

With all due respect, some people here need to step back and re-evaluate the attitude with which they are approaching the game.

The thing is you are mixing apples and oranges. In the core rules it says when you ADD a model the unit cant go above its starting size. Only Split and Split Again ADDS to the unit. For any other mechanic - Banner, Lifeswarm, Rally or even Legion of the First Prince allegiance ability - You RETURN A SLAIN MODEL. 

There is a clear distinction rule wise between these two terms. Adding to an existing unit is not the same as returning dead models. 

So if you have a starting unit of 10 Pinks and they all die, you are now left with 20 Blues. You can totally return up to 10 Pinks through Lifeswarm and Rally etc. since those abilities do not interact with the core rules that specifically mention ADDING.

[Paniere]

Most of the confusion comes from the wording "max unit size", which had a precise meaning in the context of AoS 2, being a thing also minimum unit size. In Aos 3 there's only "unit size". Max unit size means the unit size (starting size) is at its maximum. If we accept this, then it's consequential that, starting the game with 10 pinks for example, I will be able to go above this number only by SaSA mechanic. Then when the unit size drops down to 9 models or less, we can also use rally, emerald lifeswarm, fold reality and icon bearer. In order to use effectively the banner, we need the following situation to happen, that is to say that our 10 pinks suffer 9 wounds or less and we use petty vengeance on all of them, no splitting, then we can take a 1 using DDs, adding more in the following hero phase using spells, endless spells or CA up to 10 models in total.

Most players are against this interpretation because it's the most nerfing scenario, not being able anymore to inflate unit size endlessly 

[Dak_Rogan]

Page 107 – Split and Split Again Add the following to the end of the rule: ‘Iridescent Horrors, Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors that flee cannot Split and Split Again. This ability allows the number of models in this unit to exceed its maximum size.’

Such rule written like that is just a counter to page 30 of core rule pdf, italic left of the page about the above maximum size of units. But some could argue that it applies only inside SASA ruling, which could be true.

 

But on the other hand, for Icon bearer it says return slain model, which is refering to 14.2.1 core rule chapter. ANd there is no restriction here about size unit.
It's RETURN SLAIN MODEL, and not ADD MODEL. The icon bearer rule of the pink has been modified; in the past it was ADD D6 models to the unit, now it's return slain.

i just think so many people got screwed up by pinks and want to nerf them using house rules  (trolling here, don't take bait)

[Dak_Rogan]

So the errata fixed that !
page 30 the commentary in italic, maximum size unit is the reinforcement maximum for that unit type. So pinks would be 30. Then under this number, it's played just as it was in V2.

[Gilby]

Just to throw a spanner into everything...

 

"This ability allows the number of models in this unit to exceed its maximum size.’"

 

Doesn't say, "When using this ability." Just that you can ignore it. As written that means SaSA lets you ignore everything to do with maximum unit size. You could jank your 10 pinks up to 100 pinks. I do not think that's intended and wouldn't play that. But just a case for this needing a proper rewrite.

 

I'd like something like:

"Blues and brims added to this unit by this ability are not counted for maximum unit size or Rally. If this unit contains no pinks no pinks can be added by any means, if this unit contains no blues no blues can be added by any means. In addition when claiming objectives 2 blues count as 1 model and 4 brims count as 1 model, rounding down."

 

Then can just look at number of pinks when trying to figure out how many you can return. And gets a bit of a nerf which they probably need.

[herpaderp]

25.3 UNIT SIZE

These entries list the minimum number of models a unit must have. When you select a unit to be pat of your army, you must take it at the minimum unit size unless it can be taken as an understrength unit or a reinforced unit (see below).

 

Since minimum unit size is defined as the minimum number of models a unit must have, we should be able to determine that maximum unit size would be fully reinforced. So for a unit of horrors maximum unit size would be 30 models. So even if you dont accept that Split and Split Again will allow you to add models above maximum with other abilities, you can still add models until you have 30 models.

[That Guy]

I think the key of the answer isn’t wether you add or return, but in the definition of “Maximum Sized Unit”. For horrors a minimum sized unit would be 10 correct? Since they are a battleline unit, you are able to reinforce twice in normal circumstances, meaning the Maximum Size would be 30. Going above 10 pinks, that’s when adding and returning definition starts to play a role, because you would be able to go above 30…

Edited July 8, 2021 by That Guy

[EMMachine]

Hi, I would say Horrors are 1 of the weirdest units in context of 3. Edition rules like rally. It wouldn't have been a problem with the old rules where each unit of Horrors was it's own thing. It is a quite silly situation that it is most likely possible at the moment to roll 49 dice for a unit of 10 Pink Horrors where 1 Brimstone Horror is left.

2 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

Icon Bearer - "1 in every 10 Pink Horror models in this unit can be a Pink Horror Icon Bearer. If the unmodified roll for a battleshock test for this unit while it includes any Pink Horror Icon Bearers is 1, you can return D6 slain Horrors of Tzeentch models to this unit, and no models from this unit will flee in that battleshock phase."

In case of the Iconbearer it simply has to work that you can bring back pink horrors, otherwise the Standardbearer would never work for horrors (except if you use Petty Vengeance instead of Split and Split again) because you have to allocate wounds to the Pink Horrors first.

A unit that splits never is below the maximum size until the unit is brimstone horrors only.

2 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

I believe this would be the case in a following turn, where you may have 15 blues & 10 brims and would able to use Fold Reality, or Rally to return slain models.

I think I wouldn't use Fold Reality on a unit that large because a roll of 1 would kill 25 models in that case. (more likely on a unit that has been reduced to a few Brimstone Horrors so you could bring back some new Pink Horrors.

Their are two options for GW.

Either they have to limit the amount of dice for Rally to the maximumsize of the bought unit (It wouldn't change anything for most of the units, but Horrors would need to be under the maximumsize to use rally)

Or they have to make changes to the warscroll of the Horrors again. (Restricting the amount of dice or making them 3 different units again).

[MitGas]

I‘ve always removed fleeing horrors, so that rule change isn‘t new to me (just felt wrong to make them split there). The other rules clearly suggest IMO that you can return pink horrors and have the unit grow as big as possible as the new rule saying it can become bigger than max size (which would logically also be also bigger than reinforced max size). It‘s disgusting but with almost everything else in the army being quite overcosted, it‘s almost fair to have the horrors be true to their name for the other player. Plus: you don‘t need to use so many horror units. I often only run the 5 included with the Gaunt Summoner when I want to play a „nice“ list that doesn‘t  ruin the fun for a weak army…